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What's the exact condition for Gorion to become hostile to your character? Is it very bad reputation (leaving no doubt in his mind on your future choice of carreer) or is it open hostility in Candle Keep?

I cleaned out all the houses and I thought none of the indoor battles spilled outside. Yet somehow Gorion attacked me again.

Might be a tutu thing though. Not really sure.

As far as I know only attacking him or the whole of Candlekeep will make him hostile to you. No amount of rep (or lack thereof) matters.

What do you mean by 'the whole of Candlekeep'? I can get away with murdering everyone at the Keep's Clinic without anyone outside noticing. Even if I 'get noticed' (it's a scripted event) looting the desk and the guard comes in. Whom I also kill, as evil Halflings don't leave witnesses.

AvatarOfLight wrote:As far as I know only attacking him or the whole of Candlekeep will make him hostile to you. No amount of rep (or lack thereof) matters.

Very wrong, I've experienced Gorion attacking me without me acting against him. I'm not sure what the trigger point is that makes him attack you, but it certainly is your evil actions within Candlekeep in general, not how you behave towards him in particular.

So how does that make my statement wrong
I never said you had to slap him in the face personally. Might want to reread.

There are some actions that seem to raise the alarm in Candlekeep. Difficulty level seems to play a part in it. On normal I had no problem ransacking some empty houses, on the hardest difficulty guards were set on me. Murdering one of the summoned guards always got me in a state where the entirety of Candlekeep would attack me on sight. Gorion included.

I wish the game would have handled that eventuality better. For thieves there are a series of ways of getting in trouble with the guards. If that should result in a fight where someone dies, it shouldn't have to result in Gorion wanting to kill you and you getting stuck in Candle Keep after dealing with Gorion.. which was exactly what I did.

It goes against the flow of an open RPG to set the player on a course that inevitably ends in a reload, while he hasn't even died. Or whatever.

It could well be a Tutu thing Tricky. On one occasion playing Tutu all I had to do to turn Gorion hostile was have a fight with one guard. It happened in the northern house where you get attacked by an assassin. I killed the assassin, and searched the room, picked the locked chest and got the 'you've been caught' message, even though I was the only one in the room! In comes a guard, who promptly dies of steel poisoning. I then go to see Imoen and got zapped by Gorion!!

I certainly never had that sort of thing happen in the vanilla game, but even in the vanilla game he has turned hostile eventually. Looting without leaving witnesses seems to work in the original, but kill the a couple of the tutors and its game over.

AvatarOfLight wrote:So how does that make my statement wrong
I never said you had to slap him in the face personally. Might want to reread

So I re-read

As far as I know only attacking him or the whole of Candlekeep will make him hostile to you. No amount of rep (or lack thereof) matters.

Still looks wrong to me. You certainly don't have to attack all, or even a lot of people in Candlekeep to trigger it. Maybe I misunderstood, but it seemed that what you were saying is that you have to attack everyone in CK to trigger his hostility, or attack him personally, which simply isn't true.

galraen wrote:Still looks wrong to me. You certainly don't have to attack all, or even a lot of people in Candlekeep to trigger it. Maybe I misunderstood, but it seemed that what you were saying is that you have to attack everyone in CK to trigger his hostility, or attack him personally, which simply isn't true.

Indeed, my wording was lacking, but I think we're all on one line here now.

Maybe it's a Tutu thing, but in the original version, when I got caught stealing, I wasn't attacked, I was just stripped of all my cash as a fine. If you were strapped for cash, it was worth doing as the penalty of losing 10gp for instance made the risk worthwhile.

Well you're not attacked at first sight. I just refused to pay.

@Tricky

Although I can't think of any reason as to why you should kill Gorion, I'm kind of curious. Did you actually succeed in killing Gorion at level 1? If so - was it difficult - and what were your tactics?

Tricky didn't set out to kill Gorion, Gorion attacked him as I understand it.

I've had fights with the old git under the same circumstances as Tricky, and I'd say killing him is effectively impossible without cheating. I did cheat once, ctrl+y, just to see what happened.

Edit: As I closed this post I had this flash back, and I now seem to recall that Ctrl+Y didn't work and that he is in fact un-killable, my memory isn't all that great any more so that flash back can't be taken as gospel.

Actually he can be beaten without cheats. At least, it's possible in Tutu. I didn't set out to do it, but he attacked me and I wanted to see if something special would happen.

I used a plain Thief with a bow and employed hit and run tactics. It's a matter of hitting Gorion and running away before he has a chance to zap you. To avoid being in sight too long you kinda have to find the sweet spot where he's just in sight. Move away from him and for a moment he appears in the grey area where you can't really anything. Click on him from that distance and you close in and immediately fire when he's in range. Retreat the moment you fired that one shot. Also use hide in shadows whenever that red mage/monk Tethtoril passes by. That guy will kill you.

Expect to do a lot of saving and reloading. I used a special save named 'Gorion Must Die'.

Edit: Minor note, I didn't beat him at Level 1. Killing folks and guards brought me to at least level 3 or 4 I think. Especially the wizard in the inn gives a nice sum of XP.

If Gorion does die, does Biff the Understudy come along?

Isn't that a BG2 npc?

It's never happened to me, but supposedly when a character necessary to the plot dies, Biff the Understudy comes and says their lines.

The only word that comes to mind is 1337. Wow.

Just had a quick test with a new character, and Ctrl+Y did work so my first instinct was correct and my 'flash back' was definitely wrong.

Unless Biff turned up (he didn't for me) or Tricky found a way to overcome the fact that the area next to CK doesn't appear if Gorion's dead, then it really is game over.

galraen wrote:.. or Tricky found a way to overcome the fact that the area next to CK doesn't appear if Gorion's dead..

Nah, I didn't expect it would. It was a cool thing to try at least once.

Atleast in original BG the game ends if Gorion dies in Candlekeep