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Which ends up being the best option in the end? I'm sure somebody has mapped it out mathematically, and I'm not that good at math.

Personally, I just end up going with whatever my initial class gives me, but I'm curious to read all about it!

TIA!

Flurry. Throw in a couple of lightsabers with extra crit damage, and you have a neverending source of fun.

There have been quite a few threads that have discussed this in length. I'm surprised fable didn't mention them.

I would refer you to them, myself, but since the posts in them are very lengthy, I think it would be more curtious to just summarize them for you.

Early-game damage: You might deal 7 damage with each weapon in your hands at this point. Flurry will add one extra swing. That means Flurry adds 7 damage. Power Attack will add 5 damage to each weapon. That means Power Attack adds 10 extra damage. Flurry also has a hefty defense and chance to hit penalty.

Mid-game damage: You might be dealing 15-20 damage with each weapon in your hand. You may also be using Knight Speed or Master Speed by this point. Master Flurry will still only add 1 extra swing, but the penalties against defense and chance to hit will be reduced. That means Flurry will only add 15-20 damage. Master Power Attack will +10 damage to each of your 3-4 swings. That means Power Attack adds 30-40 damage when you attack.

Late-game damage: If you are a guardian who gets a bonus +2 damage from the guardian-specific feature "Lightsaber Specialization" and you are light-sider who can use the powerful Solari crystal and you focus solely on strength and neglect your other stats, then you might be able to get that extra swing from Master Flurry to deal 34-36 damage. It will still be less than the +40 from Master Power Attack, however.

Power Attack really out classes Flurry in this game. It should be noted that Flurry can be on par and even out damage Power Attack, if that extra swing from Flurry has its damage boosted by a high level of Sneak Attack. However, a person using Sneak Attack will benefit more from using Critical Strike, rather than Flurry. Master Critical Strike has a 40% chance for each of your 4 swings to be critical hits when using two single blades. It will only have a 20% chance when using a double blade. Critical Strike will do slightly more damage with Sneak Attack than Flurry, as long as you are using two single blades, and Critical Strike provides a means to stun the enemy so that you can actually use Sneak Attack. The stun from Critical Strike is especially useful in the game before you get force powers and against bosses who would be resistant to force powers.

So my advice is to use Critical Strike if you have Sneak Attack, or use Power Attack if you don't have Sneak Attack.

There is one type of build where Flurry is the best choice, imo. If you are using a single blade and not getting Master Speed. This means you will only have 1 swing when you attack. Chances are that this type of build isn't focusing on melee offense and instead focuses on defense. That means the defense penalty from using Critical Strike would be unfavorable. Since this build doesn't focus on melee offense, it will likely have a low strength. This means the stun effect while using Critical Stike is also useless. Power Attack will only add 10 damage to this one swing attack, whereas Flurry would add at least 15.

Caden wrote:There have been quite a few threads that have discussed this in length. I'm surprised fable didn't mention them.

I'm sure he already looked them up via search. After all, he's an astute GameBanshee member, who has been around for some time. But since you bring them up and feel so strongly about them, I'm surprised you didn't take the three or four extra words it would have required to provide links.

Early-game damage: You might deal 7 damage with each weapon in your hands at this point. Flurry will add one extra swing. That means Flurry adds 7 damage. Power Attack will add 5 damage to each weapon. That means Power Attack adds 10 extra damage. Flurry also has a hefty defense and chance to hit penalty...

Power Attack comes with its own hefty chance-to-hit penalty, too--but this is a comparison on an artificial playing field that leaves out a few factors influencing how Flurry and Power Attack stack up against one another. The most important of these is crystals. If you're using a Bondar crystal in a lightsaber, then you get a 25% stun chance that holds good for six seconds. Power Attack means you get one roll at that chance per round. With Flurry, you get twice the number of chances at that roll. As much can be said for Opila, which adds +3 to damage, and 2-12 extra damage with a crit. Flurry means two chances at hitting that crit per round, and an additional +6 damage, in any case. Facing droids? Firkraan supplies +2 attack, and 2-12 extra damage to droids. But if use it with Flurry, That's anywhere from 4 to 24 extra points of damage to a droid per round. It just gets that much better the more powerful the crystals you get. Got Mantle of the Force or Heart of the Guardian? They're incredibly nasty with other crystals in combination, one attack per round. With two attacks per round, they're unstoppable.

As for the to-hit penalty with Flurry, I used two lightsabers, and offset the first with Sapith (+3 damage, +2 attack) or Upari (+1-8 Damage, +3 attack). Force Barrier took care of my character's defenses. There are other power and crystal configurations that offset the problems, as well.

Taken by itself, PA does slightly more damage than Flurry even at its best, so I'm not dissing PA for what it achieves on its own. But having twice the chance to do a stun, extra crit and/or a lot of extra damage more than makes up the difference, in my experience. I like to kill or incapacitate on the first round. The few extra points of damage PA yields per round pale, I think, before the nasty tricks crystals can do for you, when aided and abetted by Flurry.

I'm sure he already looked them up via search.

I would hate to make a big deal about this, but I have a hard time believing this. There are threads that discuss this in great length and the original post indicates that the poster had not yet found any math.

I'm surprised you didn't take the three or four extra words it would have required to provide links.

I did explain this in my next sentence of that post. As Klorox can plainly see, the posts you and I have provided in this thread already are quite long and it is but a fraction of what you can find in the other threads. The other threads literally have dozens ontop of dozens of posts just like the ones me and you are posting right now. I already explained that I thought it would be more curtious if I tried to summarize them into one post. What about that is so hard for you to understand? I chose curtiousy over the way this particular forum is typically run. In fact, I don't care much for the way this particular forum is run. I think it alienates a lot of users.

Power Attack comes with its own hefty chance-to-hit penalty, too

The slightly lower chance to hit penalty that Power Attack comes with is something you can live with early-game. The chance to hit penalty and defense penalty that flurry gives at that point will actually cause you to lose fights. As you can imagine, when a character has 5 defense and using Flurry lowers it by 4, the character will take a lot more damage to the point of him losing fights he would normally win.

but this is a comparison on an artificial playing field that leaves out a few factors influencing how Flurry and Power Attack stack up against one another. The most important of these is crystals.

I try not to leave out any factors, including crystals, when I draw out my math. Bondar is the only crystal worth mentioning and I will explain why Bondar does not give any sort of benefit when using Flurry.

If you're using a Bondar crystal in a lightsaber, then you get a 25% stun chance that holds good for six seconds.

No, not exactly 25%. You get a 25% chance, only when you land a hit, that the game will roll vs a DC of 10 to see if you stun the enemy. A DC of 10 means the target will have about a 50% chance of resisting it. So you have a 25% chance that, when you land a hit, you will have a 50% chance of stunning the enemy. That means you have a 12.5% chance of stunning the enemy, assuming you have a 100% chance that all your hits will land.

Power Attack means you get one roll at that chance per round. With Flurry, you get twice the number of chances at that roll.

No, you get 4 chances with Power Attack and 5 chances with Flurry. You get a chance for everytime you land a hit on the enemy. A person dual-wielding and using Master Speed will have 4 chances. A person using Flurry ontop of that will have 5 chances.

12.5% x 4 = 50%. Power Attack would have a 50% chance of stunning.
12.5% x 5 = 62.5%. Flurry would have a 62.5% chance of stunning the enemy.
You've proven that Flurry would have a slightly higher chance of stunning the enemy at the cost of doing 20-25 less damage than Power Attack (using a non-damaging crystal like bondar widens the gap of damage dealth between Flurry and Power Attack), however, that hardly seems to matter. Critical Strike will deal more damage and stun more often than Flurry. If your goal is to stun the enemy, then you should be using Critical Strike. If your goal isn't to stun, then you should be using Power Attack. There is no benefit to using Flurry.

As much can be said for Opila, which adds +3 to damage, and 2-12 extra damage with a crit. Flurry means two chances at hitting that crit per round, and an additional +6 damage, in any case.

Nothing can be said for Opila. It adds +3 damage and 2-12 extra damage if that hit is a critcal hit. 2-12 damage is about 7 damage on average, right? Your lightsaber has a 10% chance of landing a critical hit. What's 10% of 7 damage? It's 0.7 damage. That 0.7 damage doesn't really compare to the 15-20 more damage that you will typically be doing when using Power Attack instead of Flurry.

Facing droids? Firkraan supplies +2 attack, and 2-12 extra damage to droids. But if use it with Flurry, That's anywhere from 4 to 24 extra points of damage to a droid per round.

4-24 extra damage per round? That averages out to 14 damage right? Still, it's less than the damage you will typically be doing to ALL enemies when using Power Attack instead of Flurry.

Of course, you cannot put 2 Firkrann crystals on a lightsaber. You can put 1 Firkrann crystal and 1 Luxum crystal. That would equal out to 3-18 extra damage per round when using Flurry. That's about 10.5 extra damage, on average, to droids that you will do when using Flurry. Add the 2-16 base damage that lightsabers have, 9 damage on average. That's 19.5 damage plus any strength modifiers. Let's say you have 30 strength, that is +10 damage. Meaning you will deal 29.5 damage against droids with that extra hit that Flurry gives. Again, that damage is still lower than the 40 damage that Power Attack gives you against ALL enemies.

As for the to-hit penalty with Flurry, I used two lightsabers, and offset the first with Sapith (+3 damage, +2 attack) or Upari (+1-8 Damage, +3 attack). Force Barrier took care of my character's defenses.

In my previous post I wrote that penalty against your defense and chance to hit is a problem only in early game. Long before you get those crystals or force powers. I did explain that as the game progresses into mid and late game, the penalty for Flurry against your defense and chance to hit is lessened and lessened. It is only a hefty toll early-game, when you character is likely to ahve only 6 or so defense and attack.

Got Mantle of the Force or Heart of the Guardian? They're incredibly nasty with other crystals in combination, one attack per round. With two attacks per round, they're unstoppable.

No, they really aren't.

The few extra points of damage PA yields per round pale, I think

I would hardly call 15-20 points pale.

the nasty tricks crystals can do for you, when aided and abetted by Flurry

There are no nasty tricks you can do.

I guess I will reiterate now. Using Flurry instead of Power Attack whilst using the Bondar Crystal will give you a 12.5% higher chance of stunning the enemy. However, if your goal is to stun the enemy, why not use Critical Strike? Critical Strike will deal more damage and stun the enemy more. If your goal is not to use the bondar crystal for stunning, then I suggest using Power Attack. There really is no benefit to using Flurry, not unless you plan to weild one single-blade lightsaber and don't get the Master Speed force power.

Caden wrote:I already explained that I thought it would be more curtious if I tried to summarize them into one post. What about that is so hard for you to understand? I chose curtiousy over the way this particular forum is typically run. In fact, I don't care much for the way this particular forum is run. I think it alienates a lot of users.

I'm not sure I understand your complaint. You suggested I should have furnished links, but that's not in any moderator's purview, nor did you provide any links, yourself. If you're suggesting that you could summarize past threads and that I was obliged to accept your judgment of their content, that's also not a given for any other member of this board. Since this matter is getting outside KotoR, please feel free to write me directly in a personal message if you feel it is worth discussion. I'm game, and certainly open to considering it, since I'd really like to figure out what you mean. Alternatively, feel free to report the matter to the site owner, BuckGB, since you appear upset about this, and I can't figure out where you're coming from.

The slightly lower chance to hit penalty that Power Attack comes with is something you can live with early-game. The chance to hit penalty and defense penalty that flurry gives at that point will actually cause you to lose fights. As you can imagine, when a character has 5 defense and using Flurry lowers it by 4, the character will take a lot more damage to the point of him losing fights he would normally win.

That "slightly" lower penalty for PA is 3, vs. 4 for Flurry. While at later stages, the to-hit penalty of Flurry drops: -2 for Improved Flurry, -1 for Master Flurry. The penalty of -3 to-hit for Power Attack remains constant for both Improved PA and Master PA. This makes Master Flurry significantly better at to-hit ratios than Master Power Attack.

A DC of 10 means the target will have about a 50% chance of resisting it. So you have a 25% chance that, when you land a hit, you will have a 50% chance of stunning the enemy. That means you have a 12.5% chance of stunning the enemy, assuming you have a 100% chance that all your hits will land.

The chance of resistance depends upon a Fortitude save figured against the attacking character's level plus that attacking character's Strength modifier. It's been my experience that stun frequently worked against the run-of-the-mill Sith you find throughout most of the game (not counting bosses, obviously). Have you tried MF with Bondar, using a melee build with good Strength?

For the rest, I admit to not understanding what you mean by "That means you have a 12.5% chance of stunning the enemy, assuming you have a 100% chance that all your hits will land." Of course we're assuming there's a 100% chance that all your hits land. We're assuming that for every attack in this discussion--Critical Strike, Power Attack, Flurry, etc. If it doesn't land, nothing happens. My point is that for each successful attack, there's a nice chance of stunning a foe. With Flurry, you get twice as many chances per round of getting a successful attack--hence, twice as many chances at getting a roll for that stun.

No, you get 4 chances with Power Attack and 5 chances with Flurry. You get a chance for everytime you land a hit on the enemy. A person dual-wielding and using Master Speed will have 4 chances. A person using Flurry ontop of that will have 5 chances.

So it's still 1 chance against 2, putting PA against Flurry--or 2 against 4, if you double wield. You're counting here on Master Speed bringing up PA, which is certainly an okay strategy, but I wouldn't count on it, myself. Because it means taking more time to prepare for battle while you're in battle, if you follow me. Put it this way: with Flurry, double-wielding, you get 4 shots per round. With Power Attack, double-wielding, you get 4 shots per round--only if you first cast Master Speed. As a regular strategy game player, I set great store in achieving whatever goal I've got in battle with the lowest possible expenditure of time and power. This lets me save it in case I need it later.

12.5% x 4 = 50%. Power Attack would have a 50% chance of stunning.
12.5% x 5 = 62.5%. Flurry would have a 62.5% chance of stunning the enemy.
You've proven that Flurry would have a slightly higher chance of stunning the enemy at the cost of doing 20-25 less damage than Power Attack (using a non-damaging crystal like bondar widens the gap of damage dealth between Flurry and Power Attack), however, that hardly seems to matter. Critical Strike will deal more damage and stun more often than Flurry.

Except that deploying Critical Strike removes the main advantage of Flurry: multiple attacks. So while you get the stun chance with CS, you don't get the multiple chances per round of making successful attacks-with-stun.

Nothing can be said for Opila. It adds +3 damage and 2-12 extra damage if that hit is a critcal hit. 2-12 damage is about 7 damage on average, right?

No, because factors determining the damage aren't weighted to the average. The damage can and will be anything between 2, and 12, unless modifiers are applied.

Of course, you cannot put 2 Firkrann crystals on a lightsaber. You can put 1 Firkrann crystal and 1 Luxum crystal. That would equal out to 3-18 extra damage per round when using Flurry.

With respect, you're missing my point. The 4-28 extra damage I mentioned was per round, not per attack, with only Firkrann. Assuming you hit twice using Flurry, you get 4-28 points extra damage with one lightsaber, above and beyond the damage of the weapon.

That's about 10.5 extra damage, on average, to droids that you will do when using Flurry. Add the 2-16 base damage that lightsabers have, 9 damage on average. That's 19.5 damage plus any strength modifiers. Let's say you have 30 strength, that is +10 damage. Meaning you will deal 29.5 damage against droids with that extra hit that Flurry gives. Again, that damage is still lower than the 40 damage that Power Attack gives you against ALL enemies.

Assuming Master Power Attack, to get that +10; if we're discussing simply Power Attack, it's only +5. But let's assume Master Power Attack; fine. That still means you've got -3 to a successful attack, vs -1 with Master Flurry. Significantly higher chance of hitting with MF. Twice per round, per weapon. Second, if we figure Upari (+1-8 damage) +Firkrann (2-12 damage), that's 3-20 points extra damage per successful attack. Using Flurry, with 2 attacks, +10 strength, no additional use of powers, that's 16-50 extra points of damage above and beyond the damage you'd regularly do with the weapons. Using Power Attack, you get 35 points of damage total--40 only if you have Master Power Attack. Remember, with Flurry, you get the best attack benefit right from the start, using the power. What improves are the disadvantages that come along with it.

In my previous post I wrote that penalty against your defense and chance to hit is a problem only in early game. Long before you get those crystals or force powers. I did explain that as the game progresses into mid and late game, the penalty for Flurry against your defense and chance to hit is lessened and lessened. It is only a hefty toll early-game, when you character is likely to ahve only 6 or so defense and attack.

I don't disagree with this, and I think PA and Flurry basically are trade-offs between early game and late game. PA's +5 attack is most useful in the early game, when those 5 points can make a bigger difference against the figures you face. Later on, +10 extra damage isn't that much of an advantage, as I figure it, unless you use Master Speed. The combination is lethal. Flurry is devastating, but the drawbacks are severe in the early game, which is why I've always saved Flurry at that point for double-teaming a foe or the coup de grace. However, as a character moves up with IF and finally Master Flurry, it becomes an all-purpose advantage that mows down opponents with a good selection of crystals. Critical Strike seems to me overrated: Bondar gives you the effect without wasting any power, which can be placed instead in PA or Flurry, to greater advantage.

At this point, it's clear you prefer Power Attack for your builds, and I prefer Flurry. Each of us has done a decent job defending what we believe to be a superior strategy. As a friend of mine says, chacun a son gout: each to their own. I suggest we just leave it at that.

Caden wrote:I would hate to make a big deal about this, but I have a hard time believing this. There are threads that discuss this in great length and the original post indicates that the poster had not yet found any math.

I did search, and I read through a lot of threads.

This is what I learned:

Some people like Power Attack better. Some people like Flurry better.

Nobody discusses Critical Strike, except as an afterthought. And the dialogue on Critical Strike is something akin to: Only Scoundrels should use it and it only works well with single weapon users.

In my current game, I'm playing a Scoundrel 7/Guardian and dual-wield. I get sneak attacks from both weapons when I Force Jump and sneak attacks from both weapons when enemies are stunned. So what I've learned goes against the little I've read on this forum and thought a new discussion would be worthwhile. It's unfortunate this forum isn't busier.

I asked you to reply if you had any complaints about our interaction through PMs. You decided again to discuss this here, and that has been removed. Please keep the material on the boards pertinent to the questions being asked. Thanks. -fable

While at later stages, the to-hit penalty of Flurry drops: -2 for Improved Flurry, -1 for Master Flurry. The penalty of -3 to-hit for Power Attack remains constant for both Improved PA and Master PA. This makes Master Flurry significantly better at to-hit ratios than Master Power Attack.

At later stages of the game, that -1 Flurry gives or that -3 that Power Attack gives in negligiable.

We're assuming that for every attack in this discussion--Critical Strike, Power Attack, Flurry, etc.

Actually, I'm more realistic than that. When I do the math, I factor in what would happen if both Flurry and Power Attack missed a swing or two. The math is still the same. Power Attack is still superior to Flurry, as is Critical Strike.

You're counting here on Master Speed bringing up PA, which is certainly an okay strategy, but I wouldn't count on it, myself. Because it means taking more time to prepare for battle while you're in battle, if you follow me.

Well, typically you will have time to cast it before battle. However, whatever 2 seconds of time you may spend casting it in battle will be worth it because the fight will end a lot faster with you dealing close to double damage with this Force Power. That's a little more than an okay strategy, imo.

Put it this way: with Flurry, double-wielding, you get 4 shots per round. With Power Attack, double-wielding, you get 4 shots per round--only if you first cast Master Speed.

No, no, no. With Flurry, double-wielding, and no Master Speed, you get only 3 shots per round. Have you not read a single thread that has talked about this?

With Flurry, you get twice as many chances per round of getting a successful attack--hence, twice as many chances at getting a roll for that stun.

No, no, no. You do not get twice as many chances. With two weapons and Master Speed, Flurry gets 5 chances, Power Attack gets 4 chances. 5 is not double of 4.

With two weapons and no Master Speed, Flurry gets 3 chances, Power attack gets 2 chances. Still, Flurry does not give double the chances of Power Attack. You seem to think Flurry gives 4 chances here. It doesn't.

With only one single-blade and no Master Speed, Flurry will have double the chance to stun. However, if your intention is to stun the enemy, I think you would wield more than one weapon and probably use Master Speed. Of course, if your goal is to stun the enemy, go the Critical Strike route. This is the only build where I have said Flurry is the more suitable choice over Power Attack.

Except that deploying Critical Strike removes the main advantage of Flurry: multiple attacks. So while you get the stun chance with CS, you don't get the multiple chances per round of making successful attacks-with-stun.

You do get multiple chances of stunning with Critical Strike. Flurry gets 5 chances of stunning with the bondar crystal and Master Speed, even though the chance to stun is really crappy, because you swing 5 times. Flurry will only have 3 chances of stunning without Master Speed. Critical Strike will also have 5 chances of stunning with the bondar crystal and Master Speed, because you will swing 4 times and Critical Strike adds a 5th and more reliable roll to stunning. Critical Strike will also have 3 chances of stunning without Master Speed.

Critical Strike seems to me overrated: Bondar gives you the effect without wasting any power, which can be placed instead in PA or Flurry, to greater advantage.

I still don't think there is any advantage to using Flurry. The bondar crystal is an ineffective way to stun the enemy. If your goal is to stun the enemy, you have a better chance of stunning with Critical Strike. If your goal is to deal damage, you can deal more damage with Critical Strike. Flurry is the only attack feature that is overrated. Power Attack and Critical Strike are really underrated almost anywhere you look online. There are no "tricks" you can perform with crystals to make Flurry a beneficial option.

Caden, as Klorox pointed out, checking the other threads showed that far from people agreeing with you about Critical Strike, as you claim, some people preferred it, while some preferred Flurry. The points you raise from those threads are only the opinions of a few posters, as a result, and you're taking my comments repeatedly out of context in your replies, when you aren't simply misstating them. People can check my comments above to see that for themselves. You may want to take note of that.

In any case, this is an argument over CS and Flurry that is going nowhere except in circles, as we state the same things over and over. Anybody who wants to can easily search the relevant threads, and do a google to search other forums if they need still more opinions. We've stated ours. It is the part of courtesy to let the matter go, as I suggested above. Since you aren't willing, and nobody else seems to care about this tempest in a snowglobe, this thread is closed.