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Caine

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:22 pm
by DarkMasta
Hi Everyone

I would like to know your thougts about this "case"

Why do you guys think that Caine is with Jack?

I think that, Caine was the one that was on the sarcoufgas and Jack took him out of there and placed the bomb, so that when it reaches his destination (Lacroix) it wold blow him away...

What happend on the ship to have blood all over the place?

Maybe it was the Kuei Jin...the missing crate from the ship was the key, and the Kuei Jin had the key...maybe when Jack took Caine out(if im right) the Kuei Jin appearded, and Jack fought against them, and thats why theres blood everywhere...

What are your thoughts???

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:56 pm
by Brother None
Heavy, heavy spoilers in this thread. This thread topic needs editing.

Nah, Messarach was in the sarcophagus, he's lounging next to Jack at the end there, 'member?

I think Jack (probably Jack) cleared the entire ship of all life bit by bit (that's the blood), then opened the sarcophagus, put the bomb in, took out Messarach and left with the body and key.

Not sure why the Kue-Jin have the key. Possibly Jack or Caine just gave it to 'em, or the Nos sold it?

Caine, near as I can figure, just served as an advisor to Jack, tipping him off to the sarcophagus when he saw that the Camerilla in LA was getting corrupt under LaCroix. Like with the PC, Caine is mostly passive.

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:05 pm
by DarkMasta
Dont remenber where i read this(not in this forum) that..on a VTM:b book, during the nights Jack hangs out with a guy who calls him self Caine but he isnt(the guy next to him)....dont remenber where read this

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:10 pm
by Lєviathan
The Kuei-Jin had the key... yet the key was stolen from the ship itself...

Considering how, at the end Jack is talking about "throwing that sarcophagus out there and they tear themselves apart trying to get to it", I'd say that he somehow delivered it to them to continue the fighting.


As for the guy behind him? This thread has some interesting points. While the developers seem to have wanted him to be Caine, I choose to believe otherwise. It's a fictional storyline, so I believe that some creative thought on our part isn't a bad thing, so I choose to believe that it was simply another vampire, though admittedly a very powerful one. Maybe he is supposed to be Caine, but his actions don't fit.


I do really enjoy working through the fine details of the storyline here, it's a good plot, but I just wish there were more hints in the storyline, or that there was a sequel (pleasepleaseplease) with more information, because so much of this has to be guesswork.


Your original question, as for why Caine would hang out with Jack... well if you ask him about Jack he says that there are very few kindred like him... and Jack is the oldest vampire you meet in the game, so it makes sense that if Caine was going to act friendly towards ANYONE, it would be someone like Jack.

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:25 pm
by DarkMasta
I see...but why do you say that his actions doesnt fit to be Caine?

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:52 pm
by Lєviathan
DarkMasta wrote:I see...but why do you say that his actions doesnt fit to be Caine?
Caine would have more important things to do than make the inhabitants of one city tear each other's eyes out. Plus, his skills and blood magics could have easily caused the end result of the game without all the tedious faction wars.

Plus, being a cab driver for a newly created fledgling? No, I don't see that happening.

I suppose it could have been him... but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:09 pm
by DarkMasta
"his skills and blood magics could have easily caused the end result of the game without all the tedious faction wars."

Caine is like a God..he doesnt interfear in the kindred buisness...its like our God...he doesnt interfear in our things

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:30 pm
by Lєviathan
Ah, ok, so then could I say that the fact that he does seem to be interfering doesn't fit his character?

I don't fully know the backstory, I never played the original roleplaying games, though one of my sisters did for a while... but it simply doesn't feel right to me. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though :D

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:32 pm
by DarkMasta
And i still hope that whitewolf make a third VTM game where they explaine everything lol

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:35 am
by Marik333
The story's so annoying... just when you think you know who started that fire in the first place, the Prince says, "Of course, it all makes sense, the Kue-Jin did it!", whereas the Kue-Jin have nothing to say, and the Anarchs of course blame the Prince... personally, I think that since everybody tries to kill you one way or another, except the cab driver (although, argueably, hooking you up on a blind date with a tentacle monster who very well might be a distant cousin of Kthulu wasn't the nicest of things to do, considering you were paying the guy for the ride anyway...) the game developers just wanted the game to be one giant trip in the first place...

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:03 pm
by Brujah92
I just thought of something. In the game, vampires can't see themselves in mirrors. But during the cab-ride - after having completed the 'out for blood' quest - the driver's [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/vampirebloodlines/walkthrough/images/screenshot167.jpg"]reflection[/url] is shown in the rear view mirror. If he indeed is Cain, he must've learned how to get rid of the mirror problem!

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:18 pm
by Marik333
In the World of Darkness, only certain clans of vampires don't have reflections (just as only certain clans have to sleep in a coffin on native soil, can't cross running water, are especially sensitive to sunlight, or can be completely crippled by religious artifacts, regardless of the wielder's "true faith"). So, the mirror thingy was more an affect of bad graphics (humans don't show up in them either, if you payed attention), than any reflection of something's vampiric nature in the game.

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:33 am
by Brujah92
Marik333 wrote:In the World of Darkness, only certain clans of vampires don't have reflections (just as only certain clans have to sleep in a coffin on native soil, can't cross running water, are especially sensitive to sunlight, or can be completely crippled by religious artifacts, regardless of the wielder's "true faith"). So, the mirror thingy was more an affect of bad graphics (humans don't show up in them either, if you payed attention), than any reflection of something's vampiric nature in the game.
Yes, I suspected that the lack of reflections might be more of a graphical issue. I just thought it was worth noting, but as you can see I'm not particularly reliable when it comes to the WoD rules. :o

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:59 pm
by Jhereg
Two cents more

Personally, I love these threads. There is never an adequate resolution to the question, but the more people that talk about it, the more ideas get thrown into the mix. I find that helps to suggest possibilities, consequences, and relationships that might otherwise never have occurred to me.

First things first. The Dane. I'm certain Jack took the key. Why? "Smilin' Jack" is a pirate - a 16th or 17th century buccaneer. He knows the sea, how to sail, how to navigate - and how to board a ship. Of all the people in the game, he is the only one that has the goodies to do the job. The Kuei-Jin are unlikely, because neither the Chinese nor Japanese cultures had any serious history of deep-sea sailing until after they encountered the Europeans.

At the same time, Jack would have set the bomb and took Messerach. He doubtlessly killed off the crew because rigging a bomb is a bit tricky with people whacking you with clubs, and because, once set, it would be bad if that bomb went off over the briny - not in the plan. Kill off the crew, though, and as soon as the ship is found, it's a crime scene and nothing gets touched. The bomb is safe.

Now, onto the sarcophagus. If your persuasion high enough, you can find out that Johannsen was anonymously given the information that led him to the sarcophagus. Finding it was not an accident. There are deeper machinations at work here. Whoever tipped him must have been aware of the clamor would raise. Getting it to LA is certainly no trick - after the crew is dead, sail the ghost ship into the commercial sea-lanes in and out of LA harbour and leave. Whoever finds it will take it to the nearest port - LA. A pirate would know these things.

Now, the main topic. Is the cabbie Caine? Some have said that if he wanted LA cleaned out, he could do it himself. He might - if he planned to announce his existence to the whole of the Kindred and start a blood-hunt on himself. He might be really powerful, but even a full-grown human can be bitten to death by mosquitos - if there are enough of them biting.

Plus, all of the clans have had 2 millenia to refine their abilities and knowledge, and, like it or not, they, too, know how to get hold of nuclear weapons, napalm and phosphorus rounds - assuming they even wanted to do it themselves. They have 6 billion humans with all their technology who would be just as happy as little girls to run The Original Vampire to ground - if they were manipulated properly.

No, "The best trick the devil ever pulled off was to convince mankind that he didn't exist". He's managed to do that to virtually all of humankind and even most kindred. He's free. Nobody gives up that kind of freedom unless there is an overwhelmingly pressing need to do so.

So doing it himself? If I were him, I wouldn't even consider it. Look instead at this possibility: Tip Johannsen about the tomb. Tip Jack about Johannsen. Presumably, Jack gives the key to the Kuei-Jin to precipitate an all-out-war between the Cam and the Kuei-Jin, which works nice for him. Tip the Giovanni about the Sarcophagus - they love to collect that kind of thing, and the Nossies will sell information to whoever pays them the best.

Jack doesn't even need to know that he's dealing with Caine. He isn't being asked to do anything he wouldn't do himself given half a chance, so give him a whole chance. He'd go for it in a New York Minute with the least push.

Now, without any effort at all, what do you have? A Prince without a prize, willing to do anything to get it, the Giovanni with the Prize, who don't give a damn about the Prince, and the Kuei-Jin with the key, which somebody is going to need sooner or later. You couldn't possibly package up a civil war more elegantly.

Now, the anarchs are too weak to take out all three, and even if all three go to war, they're scarcely strong enough to take on anybody who is left, and there is always the risk that the three will ally, wipe out the anarchs, then go at it with each other, and you might wind up with exactly the wrong one left standing. Not good, and 'way too much left to chance. The Giovanni and the Kuei-Jin are not of Caine's blood, and the Cam denies that Caine exists. The Sabbat are a pain, too, but if you stir the pot enough, you know the Sabbat are going to jump in. They have to. The Society of Leopold is, too but with all the hubbub, they're going to stick their neck out. The Anarchs are the Free Living Dead. They're not in it for power, or control, or dominance, or revenge, or whatever. They just heed the blood. So they are supposed to be the last ones standing.

So Caine engages in a little trickery. Maybe he has a hand-picked, powerful kindred minion of his own that he put in place ahead of time specifically to do the job once a suitable candidate has been found. The point is to get a candidate who has the tools to do the job if they were a vampire and then turn them, but turn them with a sire powerful enough to give them an edge - a big edge - even over other vampires, and who have not been turned for so long they are above using anything and everything at their disposal.

A kine - turned and thrown into a meat-grinder, bang-bang, just like that. A particularly resourceful kine, turned by a particularly old vampire, so the blood runs strong in them. A hand-picked, hand-crafted caitiff tutored by Caine's own hand-picked messenger - Jack. The urge to survive is still strong, the threat of Final Death is immediate and constant, and they've got to use everything they've got to just stay out of the ashtray. They have to get powerful as fast as they can just to survive, and nobody is going to toss them a rope. Poof! You (your character, at any rate).

Thus, LaCroix gets his life-line. It's tied through Jack back to Caine, but since you don't know that, neither does LaCroix. Even Jack might not know. Now, because you were so recently human, you set about doing what you must to surivive, and in the process, fixing things.

After that, a bunch of stuff becomes incidental. You have to prove your worth, so there's Cathayan, the warehouse, the Voerman sisters, Vick and his lot, and coincidentally a few other things, but ultimately, the Sarcophagus. You're the only one LaCroix has that is just too naive to consider an ulterior motive. You're perfect because you're a fledgeling - gullible and disposable. That takes you to the Nossies, thence to Chinatown, and on to the Giovanni, and boom! One target down (you don't think you actually snuck that box out of the Mansion, do you? If you didn't cap the Giovanni going in, you did it coming out).

After that, there's Leopold and boom! Another irritating, but incidental, target out of the way. The Sabbat freak and boom! Another irritating, but incidental, target out of the way. Three down and two to go. By now, LaCroix is getting nervous and tries to get rid of you because you found out about the alliance with the Kuei-Jin, or maybe not, and you're just set up to think it was him, but if LaCroix didn't go after you, why are you suddenly persona non grata at the tower, when at this point you haven't actually done anything to suggest that you were about to be a problem for LaCriox? Either way, now you're mad, next on the menu is Ming Xiao and boom! Four down, one to go. Now, all that's necessary is to set the detonator on that bomb. You remember the bomb, right?

The fortune teller told you to trust only the man on the couch and the Lone Wolf. Well, the Lone Wolf told you not to open it, and took some care to say that whomever did open it was deserving of the consequences. Then, of course, there is E's "Jack comes out of the box" crack. You have enough clues to know what to do next. Give LaCroix his key.

If you just happened to be a 2,000 year old Father of All Vampires, and you wanted to get rid of everybody in LA except the kine and the Anarchs, could you do it with four (count 'em - four) completely insignificant and totally unrelated moves that nobody in their right mind would ever think of linking together and laying back at your doorstep? I bet you could.

That sounds to me just exactly how a being like Caine would do something like that. If that just happened to mean that he had to drive around in a cab for awhile and have idle conversation with you (while never, you notice, actually telling you to do anything) to make sure, covertly, that you were going in the right direction with the right intentions, I think he'd do that. Think of the last cab you rode in. Do you remember the driver's face? Name?

People have said that would be 'beneath' him, but if I read this right, he's stayed off the radar for long enough to become basically a myth. That doesn't really paint a picture for me of a being who is above being completely unnoticed.

Is the cabbie Caine? Maybe not, but if he isn't he's very old, very wise, very powerful, not aligned with anybody, and devious almost beyond comprehension. If it's not Caine, I'll be he has Caine's phone number ;)

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:34 pm
by Marik333
Wow... VERY nice summary. Quick issue: Caine'd be more that 2,000 years old. Probably closer to at least 6,000-7,000. Other than that, bravo (if I knew how to cheer in any other languages, I would). I agree with you. If it isn't Caine himself, he's (or she, but I have yet to really hear of a transgendered vampire; not saying it isn't possible, but it'd take a LOT of blood from 'roid addicts to achieve that deep voice) easily somebody very high up on the food chain. I'd doubt an actual Antediluvian, b/c in the WoD, all the Antediluvians who have woken up have gone on massive rampages that usually end up with the Technocracy and every vampire on Earth knowing about it.

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:49 am
by DarkMasta
What a post and very good points....i would never be able to "analise" this things so "good" and that much atention....still....i think he is Caine....but each people has their opinion....and i think that he is Caine.....the sound files for the cab driver are named Caine...the thin blood malkavian at santa monica beach tells u the end of the story...."why is he smiling?(Smiling Jack)...Is that him!!!!is that the father behind him?!(Caine"guy that happears behind jack at the end")and his very wise, and if you go with malkavian the guy goes nuts on the cab....and at the end he says..."you are...you are...."
Still impressed with your post!!!

Oh and if i wrote something here that is saying something really "stupid" and that u explainded in the post please forgive me...im portuguese and sometimes and "dont understand the sentences"

GREAT POST YOU HAVE ;)

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:07 am
by Minalkali
Fantastic post Jhereg, you really hit a whole bunch of nails right on their heads. It always kind of bugged me that whenever this topic is brought up there's always people saying that there's no way it would be Caine because he just 'wouldn't do that'. I've never seen it that way, and you managed to articulate exactly why. I like to think it's Caine, if for no other reason that it just makes the game cooler to me.

There's only one problem with the taxi driver to me - it's the same guy the whole way through the game, even though it pretty heavily implies that the end game is the first time you meet him. I'm sure there are many possible explanations for it, but it just doesn't sit right with me, kinda like the Malkavian thing I mentioned in another thread.

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:54 am
by Darth Gavinius
More questions....

The mythology behind Vampires is probably deeper than most games can ever hint at and the plot, dialogues and what is only hinted at serve to add a depth to the game that does get you thinking. The other alternative to the taxi driver being Caine is that he is an Antediluvian (if I spelled that correctly!) I.e the founding father of a particular clan (in this case probably Brujah). Jack mentions in a conversation something regarding bloodlines "that if some sleeping ancient has a nightmare half a world away, you'll know abou it!" Given that if there is a sinister power behind all of this, and that it seems to be in league with Jack, and shows favour to the Brujah clan (mostly Anarchs), then in this way Jack would be bound by blood to do his bidding...

Then again Caine as progenitor to all the clans could realisitcally exert control over any of them (with perhaps the exception of Tremere). Still the deeper you go the more fun it becomes....

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:37 pm
by Marik333
The taxi driver at the end is definitely NOT the same guy, his voice is a tad creepier (either that, or the previous taxi driver took up chainsmoking, and then had to have surgery to remove cancer from his vocal chords).

As for it being an Antediluvian, as I said earlier, in the WoD, if an Antediluvian wakes up, they tend to destroy everything until finally destroyed by a combination of the Technocracy, a medieval Brujah vampire, and/or Caine himself. Caine's allowed to be manipulative and crafty, but a majority of the Antediluvians that wake up do not tend ot have that "behind the scenes" thing down too well. Not saying it couldn't be the Antediluvian of a clan that is naturally known to be crafty, but, yeah...

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:30 am
by Minalkali
I really doubt he's an Antediluvian as well, and especially not Troile. He just seems too calm and manipulative, definitely not a passionate warrior.

Other people theorise that he's a Malkavian friend of Jack's who thinks he's Caine, but I disagree with that too. When you ask the taxi driver about Jack, he says he only recently made his acquaintance, but Jack was friends with that Malkavian in the 16th century or so. He's probably long dead.

[quote="Marik333]The taxi driver at the end is definitely NOT the same guy"]

This is what bugs me, he does sound differernt (though he sounds more similar in some of the lines added by Wesp5) but looks exactly the same!