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So i want to make a really hard to hit dexterity character (with epic dodge ect) and i want him/her to have self concealment feats

The problem is that in nwn hotu i was able to get self concealment at around level 35 and i didnt even get all 5

So my question is: how is it possible to get self concealment in motb? (btw i know the feats you need and stuff, its just how do you get around the 30 dex and high hide and tumble skills in time?) Also is it possible to get all 5 by level 30? if yes please show me a build that can

Make a race with +2 DEX.

Start with 20 DEX
All levelups = DEX (+7)

take 2 mixins so that you hit rogue 19 at level 21. I suggest Shadowdancer and either fighter or cleric for a feat (or two).

21 Rogue 19 Epic Prowess, Epic Precision
22 Rogue 20
23 Rogue 21 Great DEX 1 (dexterity = 26)
24 Rogue 22 Dexterity +1 (dex = 27)
25 Rogue 23 Great DEX 2 (dexterity = 28)
26 Rogue 24 Great DEX 3 (dexterity = 29)
27 Rogue 25 Epic Dodge
28 Rogue 26
29 Rogue 27 Self Conceal 1
30 Rogue 28 Self Conceal 2

Epic Prowess is kinda wasted but you can't take ED or conceal until you have 30 tumble anyways....The only benefit of taking Great DEX instead of EP is that you now can start with 19 dex.

so since tumble and hide need to be 30 you cant get all 5 till level 30 right?

Maybe if you take Shadowdancer 10 Fighter 1

So pre-epic you are Rogue 9 Shadowdancer 10 Fighter 1

21 Rogue 10, Great Dexterity 1 = 26, Great dex 2
22 Rogue 11
23 Rogue 12, Great Dexterity 3 = 28
24 Rogue 13, Great Dexterity 4 = 29, dex +1 = 30
25 Rogue 14, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
26 Rogue 15
27 Rogue 16 Self Concealment 1 and 2
28 Rogue 17 Dex +1 (or another stat) = 31
29 Rogue 18 Self Concealment 3
30 Rogue 19 Self Concealment 4

I don't know if non-epic rogue legels will allow you to take great dex however

hey thanks for the build. 4 self concealment is great.

if instead of 10 shadow dancer i take 1 shadow dancer and 9 of something else that provides hide and tumble as class skills i dont think that it would interupt the way the feats are to get self concealment 4 right?

shadowdancer provides defensive roll and improved evasion...not sure if that is needed for self concealment. Epic Dodge it would be.

Test this in a char builder before you invest hours into it! I'm not sure you can take great dex at rogue feats 10, 13, 16 etc or self concealment at 19. I know you can take epic feats for 24 and 28 because those are epic rogue levels but I have no idea if you hit rogue 10 and you are level 21 what you will have available.

PS I think Self Concealment 3 with Epic Dodge would be better. My first build is good too with Self Conceal 2 and Epic Dodge and that one is tested and works. Try it with a deep gnome and you will be amazed how hard it is to hit.

Here's another build that gets Pseudo Self concealment: Enjoy

Pseudo Self-Concealment = Epic Dodge + extended Displacement.

Advantages
- 10 Attacks per round with 10d6 Sneak Attack
- Party Rogue Skillset with some Bard skills too
- Spells
- Defensive Buffs and Epic Dodge
- Epic Precision to Protect Sneak Attack and Feint to Deliver
- Warlock Invocations help Saves and Feint

Disadvantages
- jack of all trades ---> Master of None
- low fortitude save
- low hp
- sucks if sneak attack a no go

Base Attributes
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 14

Final Level Distribution
Bard 8
Rogue 16
Arcane Trickster 4
Warlock 2

Attribute Bonuses
4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28 increase DEX

Leveling Guide and Feat Distribution
Level 1: Rogue 1: TWF, Combat Expertise, Ladies Man, {Trapfinding, Sneak Attack}
Level 2: Bard 1: {Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage}
Level 3: Bard 2: Weapon Finesse, {Inspire Competence}
Level 4: Rogue 2: {Evasion}
Level 5: Rogue 3: {Trap Sense +1}
Level 6: Rogue 4: Practiced Spellcaster (Bard), {Uncanny Dodge}
Level 7: Bard 3: {Haven Song}
Level 8: Bard 4
Level 9: Rogue 5: ITWF
Level 10: Rogue 6: {Trap Sense +2}
Level 11: Rogue 7
Level 12: Rogue 8: Feint, {Improved Uncanny Dodge}
Level 13: Bard 5: {Inspire Defense}
Level 14: Rogue 9: {Trap Sense +3}
Level 15: Rogue 10: Extend Spell, {Crippling Strike: Bonus Rogue}
Level 16: Rogue 11
Level 17: Bard 6: {Cloud Mind}
Level 18: Rogue 12: GTWF, {Trap Sense +4}
Level 19: Rogue 13: {Improved Evasion: Bonus Rogue}
Level 20: Bard 7: {Inspire Regeneration}
Level 21: Rogue 14: Epic Precision
Level 22: Bard 8: {Inspire Toughness}
Level 23: Rogue 15: Great Dexterity 1, {Trap Sense +5}
Level 24: Arcane Trickster 1: {Pilfer Magic, Arcane Trickster Spellcasting (Bard)}
Level 25: Arcane Trickster 2: PTWF
Level 26: Arcane Trickster 3: {Impromptu Sneak Attack 1}
Level 27: Rogue 16: Epic Dodge, {Defensive Roll: Bonus Rogue}
Level 28*: Warlock 1: {Beguiling Influence}
Level 29*: Warlock 2: Epic Prowess, {Dark Ones Own Luck, Eldritch Lore}
Level 30*: Arcane Trickster 4
TWF = Two Weapon Fighting, ITWF = Improved TWF, GTWF = Greater TWF, PTWF = Perfect TWF
* at level 28, 29, and 30 there is a 20% xp penalty

Final Attributes

STR 10
DEX 26
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 14

Spells:

1st: Amplify, Grease, Identify, Joyful Noise; 2nd: Cat's Grace, Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image; 3rd: Displacement, Haste, Mass Curse of Impending Blades, See Invisible; 4th: Greater Invisibility, War Cry, Greater Resistance

Bard 12: 3 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 2 (0 through 4th level) - Base not including charisma bonus

Sneak Attack: 10d6

BAB 21

AB mundane (shortsword/dagger) 31/26/21/16/11 both hands damage d6 and d4

* +7 keen elemental weapon
* Feint: 10d6 sneak attack damage
* Heroism, Haste, Mass Curse of Impending Blades, Warcry
* Inspire Courage +2 AB/damage
* Taunt
* +8 str item for +4 damage a hit
* +8 dex item for +4 to AB

AC

1 naked - no buffs = 22
2 naked, cats grace, inspire defense, mirror image, displacement, haste = 34
3 robe +7, ring deflection +7, dodge boots +7, amulet natural armor +7, bracers dex +8 = 54
4 items and buffs (see 2 and 3) = 57

* Combat Expertise Available too for +3 AC and -3 AB
* Also Epic Dodge

Final Saves

Fortitude 10
Reflex 28 (also Improved Evasion)
Will 17

+3 saves to spells
+3 saves with Greater Resistance
+2 saves Dark One's Luck (+6 with charisma +8 item)


Hitpoints: 232

Skillpoints: 286

Bluff (Bl) 33 (35) +6 with Beguiling influence
Concentration (Co) 29 (31)
Disable Device (Dd) 30 (32)
Listen (Li) 15 (17) + 20 with Amplify
Lore (Lo) 7 (19)
Open Lock (Ol) 28 (36)
Perform (Pe) 9 (11)
Search (Se) 30 (32)
Spellcraft (Sp) 15 (19)
Taunt (Ta) 30 (32)
Tumble (Tu) 30 (38)
Use Magic Device (UMD) 30 (32)

All skills gain +2 with Inspiration of Competence

Skillpoint Distribution
Level 1: Bl 4, Dd 4, Li 4, Lo 4, Ol 4, Se 4, Ta 4, Tu 4, UMD 4, Save 4
Level 2: Bl 1, Co 1, Lo 1, Pe 3, Sp 5, Ta 1
Level 3: Bl 1, Co 5, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 4: Bl 1, Dd 3, Ol 1, Se 3, Tu 2
Level 5: Bl 1, Dd 1, Lo 2, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 3, Tu 1
Level 6: Bl 1, Dd 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 4
Level 7: Bl 1, Co 4, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 8: Bl 1, Co 1, Pe 3, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 9: Bl 1, Dd 3, Ol 3, Se 3
Level 10: Bl 1, Dd 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 2, Tu 2, UMD 2
Level 11: Bl 1, Dd 1, Li 3, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 12: Bl 1, Dd 1, Li 3, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 13: Bl 1, Co 5, Ta 1, UMD 1
Level 14: Bl 1, Dd 2, Ol 2, Se 2, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 15: Bl 1, Dd 1, Li 2, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 1, Tu 2, UMD 1
Level 16: Bl 1, Dd 1, Li 3, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 17: Bl 1, Co 4, Pe 3
Level 18: Bl 1, Dd 2, Ol 2, Se 2, Ta 1, Tu 1, UMD 1
Level 19: Bl 1, Dd 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 2, UMD 2, Save 2
Level 20: Bl 1, Co 3, Sp 5, Ta 1
Level 21: Bl 1, Dd 2, Ol 2, Se 2, Ta 1, UMD 2
Level 22: Bl 1, Co 2, Sp 5
Level 23: Bl 1, Dd 2, Ol 2, Se 2, Ta 1, UMD 2
Level 24: Bl 1, Co 2, Dd 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 25: Bl 1, Co 1, Dd 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 1
Level 26: Bl 1, Co 1, Dd 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Ta 1
Level 27: Tu 10
Level 28: Bl 1, Ta 3
Level 29: UMD 4
Level 30: Bl 3, Dd 1, Ol 1, Se 1

before wanting self concealment i was going for a dexterity monk 21/shadowdancer 5/duelist or divine champion 4. i would then get epic dodge and aim for perfect 2 weapon fighting. as for defence i would use empty body which lasts quite a while (50% concealment) and epic dodge. also monk 21 provides alot of nice stuff (immunity to mind affecting stuff, spell resistance ect) so i would be hard to hit physically and mentaly and magically

but after thinking about this build i started thinking that its true i ll be hard to hit but what else am i able to do? damage output is horrible and there is no sneak attack damage.

btw can empty body be dispelled? if you could alter this build it in a way that it has a better damage output and still has empty body and epic dodge im all ears

For a magic rich campaign like the OC the monk will be better. If you have +7 gloves (or kamas) with 15 d6 elemental damage and you PTWF with Greater Flurry on that will be 14 attacks per round. You will roll a 20 most rounds and against low AC monsters you will eat them alive. Plus with the monk/duelist AC + epicdodge/empty body you will be able to tank. An option is take instead of duelist 4: Cleric 1(feint, another feat)Invisible Blade3. That will give you stacking 4 damage bleeding every hit from HIPs (first flurry).

thx for the advice claudius i think i ll have to make the character a human then since i ll be adding 1 cleric (originally i was going for a wood elf for that extra strength and dexterity) also thx for the build of Pseudo Self-Concealment.

btw does bleeding damage bypass damage reduction? if not can it be bypassed if for example you use adamantine kamas against mages with premonition (damage redution of 30/adamantine)?

adamantium kamas........I am pretty sure DR blocks bleeding (eg perfect self)

also keep in mind you may have 15 d6 elemental damage on your kama. AI is probably not smart enough to cast energy immunity!

PS if you can farm the XP go deep gnome. I think the SR stacks! and you get 5 AC from small stature + 4 DG and also probably more AC from DEX/WIS....go go deep gnome! FTW. Hey I'm thirty but I can still borrow the younger generations haha.

Edit the ecl and % penalty is steep. If you can fit in the feats go IB4 and skip cleric or take 1 Rogue and able learner in some useful skills (thats 1d6 sneak and a truckload of skills just see if you are feat starved or not).

i read on some websites that drow SR and deep gnome SR dont stack with monk SR, but still il try it out just to be sure.

I think i ll stay elven (moon elf) or human cuz i cant stand anything more that +1 ecl hehe

what about strongheart halfling = feat AND +2 DEX

Edit: from the wiki

Prerequisite: Character level 21, Dexterity 30+, Hide 30, Tumble 30, Improved Evasion

So the quickest route to improved evasion is monk 9. If the game would play by the PnP rules then two evasions would give you Improved. But alas!

If you could you could go Cleric 1 Rogue 2 Fighter 26 Shadowdancer 1

Take Cleric 1 Rogue 2 Fighter 17 pre epic

Then go...

21 Fighter 18 Great DEX 1 = 26, EWF Weapon
22 Fighter 19
23 Fighter 20 Great DEX 2 = 27, Epic Prowess
24 Fighter 21 Dex +1 = 28
25 Fighter 22 Great DEX 3 and 4 = 30
26 Fighter 23
27 Fighter 24 Self Concealment 1 and 2
28 Fighter 25
29 Fighter 26 Self Concealment 3 and 4
30 Shadowdancer 1

latley i ve been thinking about a stealth build with maybe a little self concealment involving blackgaurd to increase bab as well as a little sneak attack.

but i started thinking will aura of despair from the blackgaurd disrupt my stealth? cuz like in pvp if you re sneaking up on someone and suddenly they get a -2 on saves i think its a sign that some one is near...