GameBanshee Forums

Hi everyone!

I've been lurking on this forum for a very looooooong time, so I decided to register. People seem nice and polite, and moderators do their job for those not so nice people... I like it here...

So, I don't see many people on Fallout 3 section of the forum... Seems it's quite disliked... Or am I wrong? Anyway, I like the game very much. In fact, I decided to buy myself a new computer just to be able to play it. Now it's an old Celeron 2000 with 1 Gb of rambus memory and ATI Radeon 9700 Pro. I cannot even hope to run the game on this old, but faithful bucket... :laugh: It's just that the game thrills me to the core... There are some new nice gameplay videos on Bethseda's web page, in fact five of them, but they have some spoilers there. I've played Fallout, Fallout 2 even Tactics. I didn't like Tactics so much. Fallout and Fallout 2 are my favourite RPGs and I hope 3rd installment will be too. I enjoy postapocaliptic (like Fallout) or futuristic (like KOTOR) RPGs more than classical, although I played both Baldur's Gates, Neverwinter Nights, Planescape torment, a bit of Might And Magic, Elder Scrolls Morrowind and so on.

I've even played the Van Buren tech demo and I can say that I like Bethseda's verion of Fallout 3 much more. Somehow Van Buren made me feel: been there done that. Too much like "old" Fallout's without much change. I just hope Bethseda implements everything like it was in old Fallouts like rich dialogue and dialogue choices, story and everything. To tell you the truth my biggest fear is that it will be a mindless shooter / rpg and that it will be a dumbed down Fallout. But reading interviews and watching gameplay videos seems it will have some nice dialogue so that brings me hope.

So what do you think? Will it turn out crappy or great? Is anyone interested in this game, cause I must admit that no game had this much of mine in a long time...

PS. Sorry about the lenghtness of my post and my english which is not so good as it used to be...

I've been having fun with it - it's taken my time away from Warhammer Online so that's a pretty big compliment.

I'm more of an FPS guy, so it's action elements appeal to me. It seems like there's a ton of exploration and sandbox style gameplay.

On the down side, I don't like talking to villagers that much, and there's a whole lot of searching and looting. Those are nitpicks though, the game's a blast!

Warmed Over Oblivion

Does anyone have an opinion on whether Fallout 3 is just Oblivion warmed over with some interesting color from the Fallout franchise slapped on?

The critics have been clearly stating 'no F3 is totally different and better'. However, from watching the gameplay vidoes F3 really does look and feel like Oblivion. Seems to be the same graphics engine, the same character design (same skeletal models and the main character even has the same walking cycle for that matter), almost the same combat system with the Fallout targeting system slapped on (do enemies level with the player as well - as in Oblivion?).

I just checked out Mass Effect and Far Cry 3 - both were amazing.
So I ask myself as a Fallout fan, would I really enjoy Fallout 3 given that I found Oblivion to be a complete waste of time? Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

I don't know I've read people very excited playing this game and others who thought it was like a FPS. There are reviews on amazon. I tend to trust consumers more than professional critics (who I imagine are influenced by sales rep type people?)

Amazon

Thanks! Amazon should be a good lead.
(I agree with your criticism of professional reviewers.)

So far, I've found reviews on Amazon to be useless for this game. Basically it's either the greatest game ever or the worst. The bad part is, anything that isn't a glowing rexiew of the game seem to just be countless people giving the game a 1 star rating because it comes with Securom. Wouldn't mind so much, but out of four pages of 1 start reviews, only two reviewers apparently even played the game. Amazon reviews for PC games are becoming worthless since the only thing you ever read is about Securom, and not the actual gameplay.

Bloodstalker wrote:So far, I've found reviews on Amazon to be useless for this game. Basically it's either the greatest game ever or the worst. The bad part is, anything that isn't a glowing rexiew of the game seem to just be countless people giving the game a 1 star rating because it comes with Securom. Wouldn't mind so much, but out of four pages of 1 start reviews, only two reviewers apparently even played the game. Amazon reviews for PC games are becoming worthless since the only thing you ever read is about Securom, and not the actual gameplay.

I'd suggest waiting for the GB review, which I imagine is in the works...
In general I find the reviews here to be well balanced with plenty of critical analysis.
Plus, waiting means more time for the bugs to be ironed out

Well. Fallout 3 is not without flaws. But it completely shattered my scepticism to it, when I first heard that betheasda made the game. It's a vast, VAST improvement over oblivion in nearly every field, and also lives up to its legacy (though one may certainly argue, that it's trying a little too hard), I think that only the most narrow-minded hardcore fallout fan (e.g "If it's not isometric, then it's automatically bad) would refuse to call this a worthy addition to the fallout universe.

GB Review

The GiantBomb review is out and it's pretty credible - probably worth reading if you are considering F3.

I think I am going to hold off on F3. I have found the Bethesda games too much of a grind to complete and the reviewer seems to confirm that this is another Bethesda grind - though more interesting than their past games.

It's the first game since the original NWN to have me sit down at 6.00pm and next think I know it's 4am. It's making me nostalgic.

Don't get me wrong, I've played other games for that length of time, but I've not been lost in them. It's a huge compliment on my part. I could nitpick the game, I guess, but in truth it's the best immersive experience I've had in a long, looong time. It may not be as "fun" as Fable or "purist" as Far Cry, but it's an experience in its own right.

Sure, it has a few of the issues that Oblivion did, but to a lesser degree, and the overall atmosphere of the game is just immense.

I love it to bits, I'm only here, posting this, because of work.

I'm almost done with the game, and I have to say I'm pretty disappointed. I didn't have securom issues, so you won't find any of that here. Here are my gameplay-related pros and cons:

Pros:

-Starts of great, cool first areas, great art.
-Unlike first two games, there is actually stuff between locations, which is fun and immersive, you can leg it anywhere you can fast travel in this game.
-Combat is fast paced and fun. No more waiting for 20 ants to take their turns before you get to throw a rock at one. No more hunting down the one mob in the corner who keeps you in combat for forever.
-Great artwork, nice details, it does feel very apocalyptic out there, kudos to the art team.
-Physics is fun, blowing holes in stuff is fun too!

Cons

-Starting areas and main quest chain are only real finished areas in game, after 15 hours you realize there's nothing cooler coming than what you see initially, which sucks.
-The random encounters and things in between towns are pretty pointless, yielding only enemies and ammo. There's nothing unique to find or do, it feels like. Almost no one to interact with, either, I used to love picking sides in faction fights you find in the wasteland, nothing like that happens now.
-Stupid, stupid dialogue, no branching quests or NPCs interaction. Never more than one or two quests in a town, with never any follow-up jobs, interactions or whatever. I saved some girl's brother from a cannibal cult, all she said was "Thanks", and then never said more than that to me again.
- Good/Evil are your only two choices, and they rarely happen. There's just nothing to do but pointless combat and the linear quest chain. There are some fetch quests, but, meh, those always bore me.
-Terrible plot, poor quest design.
-Far fewer endings than promised. Like a handful, I have no idea where they come up with "200" that's a joke.
-FPS/VATS balance issues. VATS godly at pb-range, useless at mid-long range. FPS allows one-shot kills at looooong range with no skill checks. It's just weird.
-Lack of RPG elements: Most SPECIAL attributes and many skills are just useless. You can save/load speech checks, but you don't need them since there is always a dialogue choice to advance the plot, no matter what. I had 4-5 attribute checks and a handful of skill checks in the whole game. Skill isn't even checked for FPS mode, I can headshot something at 100 yards with 15 skill points in it in FPS mode.

I really enjoyed the game at first, but the more you play it, the more you realize that there's nothing much in it besides shoot and loot. The dialogue just...stopped. And the copy-paste feel of the two-dozen dungeon crawls I endured really wore me out. I know all the metro stations in DC kinda feel the same IRL, but I just dont think they needed to force you to travel and fight through a dozen of them. Walking into a ruined school and seeing the staircase on the right was filled with rubbish gave me a headache, as I always knew that this meant a tortuous, timewasting 3-d maze was coming up, all of which could be avoided if I had the presence of mind to travel with a rope and a collapsible ladder.

2/5 stars, 4/10, D+, 40%. That's what I give it, take your pick. Its a fun, dumb shooter with better art and story than most, but it isn't a Fallout game.

After 10 years of waiting, petitioning, following up the production stages...

I completely agree with deadsanta.
I am pretty disappointed. Monotonous I'd say.

An immense environment, good graphics. And that's all.
Empty in the shell. Spiritless body.

It is not Fallout 3... It is Oblivion with Fallout settings.

There are so few points about Fallout2 spirit. Spiced around at the beginning, but completely disappears after some time.

Where is the dark humor? Where is the free choice?
It is just Good-Bad karma.

I won't talk about the game engine, which has many flaws (disabling gore and shooting movies, inventory problem, skill problems, SPECIAL problems, VATS-FPS comparison, lack of individual Map-Quest buttons etc.), but might be acceptable. The atmosphere is there. All right.

But the spirit of Fallout 2... Completely gone.

Fallout 2 reacted to your actions, to your character.
Nearly everything you did had corresponding consequences....

When you played a dumb person, everybody treated to you as dumb...
That was a whole different experience. And a very successful one.

If you played a whore, people reacted. If you didn't want to fight, you'd talk through your way. Or you'd let your hencmen do the work.

If you were a boxing champion, people cheered you on the streets.
If you made a successul porn movie, NPC males whistled when you passed, NPC females insulted you.

FO2 had a spirit. It was like a living environment. You got immersed in it.

FO2 had many options. If you wanted, you'd rescue Sulik's sister. But if you didn't, you could sell Sulik to the traders. You could talk your way, lockpick your way, kill your way, trade your body, whatever.
There were many many options in everything you did.

FO3 is pretty much spiritless, without options and monotonous.
I am greatly disappointed.

I was actually positively surprised as I was expecting "Oblivion with guns". F3 turned out to be a good game, its only downside is that it's quite short

deadsanta wrote: - Good/Evil are your only two choices, and they rarely happen. There's just nothing to do but pointless combat and the linear quest chain. There are some fetch quests, but, meh, those always bore me.

Actually, Megaton contains quest which can be ended three different ways: good, neutral and evil. There are couple of others as well.

-Far fewer endings than promised. Like a handful, I have no idea where they come up with "200" that's a joke.

That 200 endings meant that there is couple of different endings for each town, and if you count every possible combination then you get something like 200. Yeah, that was probably just marketing trick.

-Lack of RPG elements: Most SPECIAL attributes and many skills are just useless. You can save/load speech checks, but you don't need them since there is always a dialogue choice to advance the plot, no matter what. I had 4-5 attribute checks and a handful of skill checks in the whole game. Skill isn't even checked for FPS mode, I can headshot something at 100 yards with 15 skill points in it in FPS mode.

Not true. First of all, I have noticed that there is skill check in FPS mode as well. Perhaps the effects aren't that big as in VATS, but the check is definately there. Skill checks I have noticed so far in game (outside of dialogies, bartering on personal uses): Lockpick, Science, Repair, Medical. Other checks are combinated to dialogue, bartering or other skill usage (weapon etc.). And about dialogue. Yes, you can save/load till you succeed in the skill check, if that's they you want to play. I don't. Also, not all Speech checks have workaround in dialogue, sometimes you must manually do something to get the same effect as with succeed skill check (virtual world in Vault 112 comes to my mind immediately).

So, basically all the checks are there, just that those aren't as visible as in older Fallouts. Yes, perhaps the weapon skills have too little affection in FPS, but they do affect.

deadsanta wrote: -The random encounters and things in between towns are pretty pointless, yielding only enemies and ammo. There's nothing unique to find or do, it feels like. Almost no one to interact with, either, I used to love picking sides in faction fights you find in the wasteland, nothing like that happens now.

Well, which game doesn't have boring moments? It's kind of weird to criticize a game for not being perfect.

deadsanta wrote: -Stupid, stupid dialogue,

Disagree.

deadsanta wrote: no branching quests or NPCs interaction. Never more than one or two quests in a town, with never any follow-up jobs, interactions or whatever. I saved some girl's brother from a cannibal cult, all she said was "Thanks", and then never said more than that to me again.

*mild spoilers*
Most claims here are dead wrong. The very quest you mentioned does branch: you can do several things after you head to the town on the destroyed bridge (the name escapes me at the moment). You can steal, lie, kill or be the vigilant hero. Almost every quest has follow-up jobs, the most obvious being the quest helping to write a survival guide in the wastes. The side quests are actually where fallout 3 really outshines fallout 1 and 2 in my opinion. While the side quests in fallout 2 (though especialy fallout 1) where extremely often boring, predictable, one dimensional and short, there is more to most of the side quests in fallout 3 than first meets the eye.

deadsanta wrote: - Good/Evil are your only two choices, and they rarely happen. There's just nothing to do but pointless combat and the linear quest chain. There are some fetch quests, but, meh, those always bore me.

Did you even pay attention while you were playing the game, or were you just too busy finding things to criticize? I'm sorry, but it hardly seems like you've been playing the game for more than 2 hours.

deadsanta wrote: -Terrible plot, poor quest design.

Care to explain?

deadsanta wrote: -FPS/VATS balance issues. VATS godly at pb-range, useless at mid-long range. FPS allows one-shot kills at looooong range with no skill checks. It's just weird.

Working as intended, as far as I'm concerned. You were ment to play mostly in VATS; that's why the fps mode is really downplayed, and quite frankly sucks. I've never gotten a long range head shot with a standard weapon in FPS mode, so I think you must have some sort of super weapon I've never got my hands on.

deadsanta wrote: -Lack of RPG elements: Most SPECIAL attributes and many skills are just useless. You can save/load speech checks, but you don't need them since there is always a dialogue choice to advance the plot, no matter what. I had 4-5 attribute checks and a handful of skill checks in the whole game. Skill isn't even checked for FPS mode, I can headshot something at 100 yards with 15 skill points in it in FPS mode.

Which exactly of the SPECIAL attributes are useless? I can't think of a single one actually, that doesn't help your character in some significant way. 4-5 attributes checks in the game accounts for most of the 6 attributes, so I don't see how that is bad, and noone is forcing you to load/save your speech check, and besides those, nearly every skill (if not all) has some skill-check in the game.

Gauda wrote:Well, which game doesn't have boring moments? It's kind of weird to criticize a game for not being perfect.

I'm not criticizing it for not being perfect, that would be stupid of me wouldn't it? But you know that, which is why you try and paint me into that corner, rhetorically. Shame on you. When I said it was boring I gave specific reasons: 1) Quests make you fight through aeylid-ruin-like dungeon crawls and give you primarily ammo or caps (which you use to buy more ammo) and the same trash (literally), over and over. 2) No one to interact with. 3) No factions (Beyond the generic "good" and "evil").

*mild spoilers*
Most claims here are dead wrong. The very quest you mentioned does branch: you can do several things after you head to the town on the destroyed bridge (the name escapes me at the moment). You can steal, lie, kill or be the vigilant hero.

That's flat-out wrong, and the place is called Arefu. I'm glad you mention it, because it gets cited as one of *the* best side quest in this game, so let's look at it in more depth (some spoilers, but it's practically a starter-quest, not central to plot, no biggie):

You get sent there by a girl in your starting town (She just says "I have a problem" and you say "I'll help!"). You arrive and you have a choice of either a) Helping the settlers (All three of them in Arefu, because that's how few NPCs there are) b) Helping the "bad" guys c) Not doing anything but breaking into homes and looting their stuff to have more bullets to fire at random encounters. Note that option c) is the mental equivalent of turning the game off and watching TV. So you pick option a), because it seems the most fun and here's how that quest goes:

1. Help me? Cool, go look in those shacks and see if everyone is OK!

solution: Walk 10 paces, open 2 doors, note simultaneously that "everyone" is OK and that all three of them have nothing else to say to you now or every again. Open third door and see two corpses: not OK dude. Click on one to verify not-OK-ness, get a seeming CSI style forensic clue that you think will be important later in a whodunnit but will actually be nothing but one additional line of exposition. Go back and tell quest-giver that a couple folks aren't OK.

2. Find them and defeat them!

Solution: You are given three map coordinates nearby, you have merely to explore them to determine where the bad guys are and then deal with them. However since you have played this game a bit, you know they will be in the endless metro system of copy-paste doom, along a circuitous route of cunningly placed underground rubble. Skip the 2 random fight encounters at the other sites (or go for the ammo caches there, your choice) and proceed through the "maze" which willl never branch more than once a floor.

You find the bad guys, and in a predictable twist, they possibly aren't bad. So now you have your big "branch": Kill them or persuade them, which I argue is no branch at all, just a choice of 2 outcomes. You choose "persuade" and they go along like idiots with everything you say, a dialogue with one character that lasts maybe 3-4 lines. I should mention that there are 5 bad guys, but again, only the leader interacts with you, and does anything to advance the quest, so those 4 others are just there to establish his bona fides as "leader", and as window dressing.

There's a kid there you have been sent to find originally, by his sister in the starter town, and her letter will essentially "solve" the whole problem of this quest chain for you if you mention it in conversation, which is lazy writing in the extreme.

3. (or)Talk to bad guys.

So you have that conversation with the leader, and then the kid (who is 20 feet away), and that's it, quest over. You go back to Arefu and tell them they are safe, and get a reward. You will never get another quest to or from that place (I haven't, after 50 hours and 80 locations). The "bad guys" will give you a reward when you go back, but again: No followup, no quest. One of them reveals himself to be a vendor, and will trade with you now. Buy more ammo or watch TV?

The girl who sent you from your starter town to that one-quest joke? Oh yeah, she doesn't talk to you beyond "Nice Day!" after you do all that for her bro. And, goes without saying, no quest followups.

Lazy. Farking. Writing.

You say some other stuff like

Almost every quest has follow-up jobs

Which is patently untrue, and I challenge you to back this up with examples (plural). Outside of the main plotline, almost nothing has a followup quest. In fact, one of the few people with a follow-up quest chain is the starter quest-giver Moira in Megaton, a town which 70% of gamers will blow up right off the bat.

some citations:

Sheriff: One quest, says "hey" to you forever afterwards.
Walter: One quest, after which he becomes a buyer of scrap metal, which I do not consider a "quest".
Girl who's brother has gone missing: Yeah, we covered that.
Leo Stahl: One "quest", which is to get him to stop using drugs, which you just do by talking to him once.
Leo Stahl's family: Will not reward you for fixing his addiction, or even acknowledge it has happened.
Maggie: Will tell you how to steal from her dad in a dialogue. Nothing else.

And it goes on and on...

That's just megaton, I could do the same in Rivet City, Canturbury Commons, etc... If it isn't on the main quest chain/plot line it gets no attention from these devs.

Compare that to an area called The Den in FO2, and here I'll just link to a walkthrough:

Fallout 2 Walkthrough

compare that to the quest chain I just described, where the area (a side-trip from the plot, mainly) has 11 quests, one of which offers you 10 ways to arrive at a viable resolution-- and you'll see that there is just no comparison in scripting, branches, skill checks, everything.

FO3 = FO Oblivion with a few more side quests and a bit more writing, which just nudges it into the elementary school-level of problem solving skillset.

The more I play F3 the more I like it.

In the beginning I wasen't sure if it would be another Oblivion with no real depth. But I really think they have done so much more out of the RPG elements compared to Oblivion.

I think they get alot out of the SPECIAL system and your skills when it comes to dialogue. Speech is used alot to try to convince people and there tends to be alot of dialogue options that relates to a stat or a skill. So if you haden't gotten enough of that stat or skill you wouldn't get that dialogue option.
Not all of those actually changes the outcome of the dialogue. But its still a nice thing I think.

I also like that alot of places that might not have any quest related to it or atleast not a quest you have a gotten at that point, still contains some sort of story related to it. So its just not another empty building or town.
Many times told through holo tapes or Computer terminals you find there.

I even found a relay tower (radio tower) that I activated and heard the same transmission over and over about a man begging for some to help him and his wife as their boy was sick and they had hid themself close by in a sewer drain.
You didn't get a quest for it, but I was curious so I found the drain and went it and found the radio that played the message and in the next room I saw the skeletons of what I assume was the mother and father.
Made me wonder how old that transmission actually was.

Anyway, I really enjoy it. I love Fallout 1 and 2 but I don't try to compare F3 with those since they are quite different in looks and the way you play.

deadsanta wrote:I'm not criticizing it for not being perfect, that would be stupid of me wouldn't it? But you know that, which is why you try and paint me into that corner, rhetorically. Shame on you. When I said it was boring I gave specific reasons: 1) Quests make you fight through aeylid-ruin-like dungeon crawls and give you primarily ammo or caps (which you use to buy more ammo) and the same trash (literally), over and over. 2) No one to interact with. 3) No factions (Beyond the generic "good" and "evil").

Sure, but all the same, these reasons beg the questions:
1)Doesn't scavenging make sense, in light of the universe of fallout being a bleak, where everyone is struggling just to survive?
2)Do you mean to say that there is no dialogue in fallout 3, and that there is nothing you can do with anything? Because if there is, then that's certaintly interaction.
3)And why does it need factions besides the obvious "good" and "evil" (I take it you're referring to BOS and that mercenary company), to be good? That seems like a rather arbitrary requirement. (this game doesn't have dancing mushrooms appearing every now and then, therefore it sucks!). *spoilers* Besides, I would certainly call the family a faction, especially since you can "join" them, through a perk.

deadsanta wrote: That's flat-out wrong, and the place is called Arefu. I'm glad you mention it, because it gets cited as one of *the* best side quest in this game, so let's look at it in more depth (some spoilers, but it's practically a starter-quest, not central to plot, no biggie):

I didn't mention that quest, you did. And I personally don't agree that that quest is the best side-quest in the game. You recaption of the quest is good enough, though I disagree that the location of the family is as obvious that you make it out be, and you missed many of the choices you can make along the way. But even so, I don't see how you can with a straight face say that this is a horrible quest, even in light of your own description. I've seen far worse side quests, and relatively few better.

deadsanta wrote: Which is patently untrue, and I challenge you to back this up with examples (plural). Outside of the main plotline, almost nothing has a followup quest. In fact, one of the few people with a follow-up quest chain is the starter quest-giver Moira in Megaton, a town which 70% of gamers will blow up right off the bat.

Doesn't work that mate. If you make a claim, and I make a counter-claim, then the burden of proof lies on you, not me. But hey, let's roll with it, since I made aditional claims to the counter-claim, and since you seemingly has candidly admitted that you are wrong, when it comes to your original claim. *spoilers*
quest involving saving kid's dad from fire ants, branching quest with several follow up jobs. Arefu quest.

There you go, examples. I don't care to give any more, because I have a feeling that even if I gave you a thousand examples, you would still not be convinced.

Bethesda or Not to Bethesda

Reading the thread and having played several Bethesda games; imho either you like Bethesda games or you don't. I am in the second camp and feel that Bethesda produces what boils down to essentially the same game over and over again. Their games usually sound great on paper but the actual execution/formula just doesn't click. The end result is that Bethesda games leave me (us?) wondering "what's the point?", which pretty much defeats the purpose of playing a computer game - especially a RPG. Anyway for those of you in the Bethesda camp - enjoy your pointless drivel! There are plenty of other games for the rest of us to enjoy, unfortunately not Fallout 3.

Gauda wrote:Sure, but all the same, these reasons beg the questions:

You need to go look up what the term "Begging the question" means, because you are essentially using it to discredit your own argument. Which is fine by me, because you are using it accurately: Creating a questionable premise and answering it yourself, in an exercise of obviously circular logic.

1)Doesn't scavenging make sense, in light of the universe of fallout being a bleak, where everyone is struggling just to survive?

I did not argue, anywhere, nor would I, that "scavenging doesn't makes sense" in this world. You made that argument up yourself, and then tried to have me speak it by answering it yourself. How's high school debate club shaping up, you learning some useful things, I hope? You learned how to beg your own question today, anyway.

My argument is that the activity of doing nothing but acquiring ammo is boring and pointless, after a few hours, from a game-playing POV, and it remains so into hour 40.

The rest of your comments are the same, you invent and exaggerate claims, attempt to put the words into my mouth and then create a fallacious answer to your made-up "question" (Including citing one "example" of a side quest with branches, when I link you a FO2 walkthrough that has dozens, which this game patently does not have, or you would have cited them. Branching quests just aren't in the game for the most part I've trekked most of the wasteland now and out of 80 locations, ~65 of them are just enemies and ammo, and the others don't do much of anything except autoresolve when you chat with someone). I won't be responding further to you in this thread, I already said my bit and defended it, I'll summarize:

FO3 is slightly less empty than Oblivion, a watered down, dumbed down Fallout wanna-be; FO3 is an rpg-lite shooter that has some nice art, good atmosphere and decent death sequences but which lacks any great depth and has been horribly overhyped by media and fans alike.