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I don't know if anyone follows the news, but a tape pf Bin-Laden has just today been released,and it was to long to watch.
Does anyone know the jist of it?

It's a smoking gun.

OBL is caught on tape boasting about the WTC and Pentagon destruction and expressing awe at the extent of the damage, which apparently exceeded his own expectations. It won't do much to alter American foreign policy, but it should help to alleviate international concern over the justification of the war in Afghanistan. Muslim fundamentalist will regard it as nothing more than propaganda, however.

You can find more details [url="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011213/ts/afghan_bin_laden_tape.html"]here[/url].

O_O I hope they catch that man!

*yells in Relena voice* Heero kill that man!

Let me get this straight: bin Ladan makes a tape for no conceivable reason of himself gloating over the September massacre, in front of a camera--after the fact. Then, the tape somehow gets dropped off in a street, in a city. Then, it gets picked up, and brought to Americans, who can't name where they got it from, and find time to subtitle it.

What's wrong with this picture?

@ Fable - Are you suggesting the US government fabricated information???

We ignorant Americans are too clever to be fooled by our government.

And for those naysayers:

Go [url="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/miller.html"]here[/url].

it really doesn't matter if he "did it" or not...he and his friends are going down....eventually, and if you think it's not possible for our government to fabricate sumthing to fit their desires....welp all i can say is you're really ignorant

and if sumone else is guilty...i keep my fingers crossed that sumwhere down the line the get 86ed also....and any other $*&#@% that think its a good thing to kill and destroy in the name of whatever...

Originally posted by Sojourner:
<STRONG>And for those naysayers:

Go [url="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/miller.html"]here[/url].</STRONG>

I'm missing your point. bin Ladan has been giving out interviews to a few select journalists for about a decade, now. One played on the BBC about a month ago; I heard it.

If anything, the extreme security of Al-Quy'dah in terms of recorded interviews only makes the idea of a third party secretly taping bin Ladan even more unlikely. Not to mention the fact that the permitted interviews were with big name journalists who would hardly leave their tapes sitting around on the ground in major cities.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Let me get this straight: bin Ladan makes a tape for no conceivable reason of himself gloating over the September massacre, in front of a camera--after the fact. Then, the tape somehow gets dropped off in a street, in a city. Then, it gets picked up, and brought to Americans, who can't name where they got it from, and find time to subtitle it.

What's wrong with this picture?</STRONG>

Actually, that's what's right with the picture. It's already known that OBL is clever and all that. That was proved in the complexities of 9-11. I wouldn't put it past him to make such a tape and purposely let it end up in the hands of the American government. They would then, of course, immediately start using it to show OBL is, beyond any doubt, the perpetrator. Then, intelligent people like fable(no offense meant here) and others would see the "problems" with this picture. As more and more people see the "problems" with the picture, it spreads more distrust of the government as more people wonder if the government fabricated this tape. As distrust grows between the people and the government, the country starts to become divided, which is exactly what OBL wants because he knows that the only chance he has to win is if America, and the countries allied with the US, become to divided to work effectively. While a bit desperate and very risky, it seems to me exactly the type of thing someone like OBL would do. What do you think?

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>Actually, that's what's right with the picture. It's already known that OBL is clever and all that. That was proved in the complexities of 9-11. I wouldn't put it past him to make such a tape and purposely let it end up in the hands of the American government. They would then, of course, immediately start using it to show OBL is, beyond any doubt, the perpetrator. Then, intelligent people like fable(no offense meant here) and others would see the "problems" with this picture. As more and more people see the "problems" with the picture, it spreads more distrust of the government as more people wonder if the government fabricated this tape. As distrust grows between the people and the government, the country starts to become divided, which is exactly what OBL wants because he knows that the only chance he has to win is if America, and the countries allied with the US, become to divided to work effectively. While a bit desperate and very risky, it seems to me exactly the type of thing someone like OBL would do. What do you think?</STRONG>

You've got quite a clever idea there, @SS. I'm just not sure that bin Ladan is that devious. Bush isn't making matters any better by insisting (as I've just heard) that anybody who questions the veracity of the tape is "making the best case of a very evil man." Surely Dubbyah is smart enough to realize that the morality of a person has nothing to do with the truth (or otherwise) of that strange tape.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Bush isn't making matters any better by insisting (as I've just heard) that anybody who questions the veracity of the tape is "making the best case of a very evil man." Surely Dubbyah is smart enough to realize that the morality of a person has nothing to do with the truth (or otherwise) of that strange tape.</STRONG>

I'm not sure I understand what it is Bush is saying there. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying either. But, then again, I try to not pay close attention to politics. I'm sure this makes me just another ignorant American, but I've got more than enough problems to worry about.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Let me get this straight: bin Ladan makes a tape for no conceivable reason of himself gloating over the September massacre, in front of a camera--after the fact. Then, the tape somehow gets dropped off in a street, in a city. Then, it gets picked up, and brought to Americans, who can't name where they got it from, and find time to subtitle it.

What's wrong with this picture?</STRONG>

Do you doubt the veracity of the tape?

Do you doubt that bin Laden is a terrorist?

Just curious.

I can't speak for Fable, but I believe he is a terrorist (Bin Laden, not Fable), but am skeptical of the tape. I also believe he was behind the attack.

But, why would he be videotaped? If it was secretly taken, why is it just coming out now? It just seems a little too neat.

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by McBane:
<STRONG>I can't speak for Fable, but I believe he is a terrorist (Bin Laden, not Fable), but am skeptical of the tape. I also believe he was behind the attack.

But, why would he be videotaped? If it was secretly taken, why is it just coming out now? It just seems a little too neat.

Just my opinion.</STRONG>

I agree: bin Laden is a terrorist, and was involved in the planning of the 11 September attacks.

Why would he allow himself to be videotaped? Who knows? We can start with: he is completely insane and irrational. That is as good a reason as any, IMO.

But this idea that the US government is making this tape up; well, you have to ask the same question you are asking on behalf of bin Laden: why? GW Bush has shown no great need or desire to garner support or prove guilt (I think more intimidation has occured than anything else to get people "on our side"), and the hunt for bin Laden is coming rapidly to a close - so why should they produce this tape now in an attempt to convince people of bin Laden's guilt?

Call me a dupe, but I have no reason to doubt that tape. I might also add that the tape itself changes my opinion of bin Laden not one whit. He is sick and dangerous, and the world would be a better place without him.

Originally posted by Lazarus:
<STRONG>Do you doubt the veracity of the tape?

Do you doubt that bin Laden is a terrorist?

Just curious.</STRONG>

Can't argue with him.

Originally posted by Lazarus:
But this idea that the US government is making this tape up; well, you have to ask the same question you are asking on behalf of bin Laden: why? GW Bush has shown no great need or desire to garner support or prove guilt (I think more intimidation has occured than anything else to get people "on our side"), and the hunt for bin Laden is coming rapidly to a close - so why should they produce this tape now in an attempt to convince people of bin Laden's guilt?

Well, lets spin this...

Let's look at US foreign policy the last week or so in regards to the Israel/Palestine conflict. We have totally let Sharon go and the prospect of peace has been blown away. This lack of Palestinian support will be viewed critically by Arabs, especially those in the coalition against Bin Laden.

The US needs to maintain the position that we are not anti-Arab, even though we are seemingly supporting Sharon kill as many Arabs as he wants. Now, Bush shows "definitive" proof that Bin Laden is responsible. He can distinguish between war on 1 guilty group vs all Arabs.

IMO, the Israel declaration that the PLO is a terrorist organization puts pressure on the US to separate the 2 conflicts (Afghanistan & Israel) We cannot afford to be viewed as too pro-Israeli (although I do not see how we could be viewed otherwise)

I am sure I am stretching here, but you can come up with many reasons why the US wants to show definitive proof.

Anyway, this is the longest post I have ever made, and I will probably have to go back to lurking for a while.

Originally posted by Lazarus:
<STRONG>Why would he allow himself to be videotaped? Who knows? We can start with: he is completely insane and irrational. That is as good a reason as any, IMO.</STRONG>

All the evidence is to the contrary: that bin Ladan is most definitely rational, and extremely adept at what he does. Remember, just because you think a given individual is a "bad person," doesn't mean they're incompetent. Where has he demonstrated irrationality?

But this idea that the US government is making this tape up;

I never wrote that. I strongly question that this tape is what it's claimed to be, but that doesn't mean that the US government is necessarily behind its fabrication--assuming that's what happened.

...well, you have to ask the same question you are asking on behalf of bin Laden: why? GW Bush has shown no great need or desire to garner support or prove guilt

Inaccurate. Bush made repeated appeals for US public support within the first several weeks after the September attacks. And the US government sent an unprecedented number of diplomatic couriers to other nations that Dubbyah wanted to line up behind his vaunted "global anti-terrorist aliiance" at the time. Their job was to convince other nations of the facts that he had, to guarantee their support.

(I think more intimidation has occured than anything else to get people "on our side"), and the hunt for bin Laden is coming rapidly to a close - so why should they produce this tape now in an attempt to convince people of bin Laden's guilt?

Because the case against bin Ladan remains a matter of "we say so" at this point. And we all know that if and when bin Ladan is captured, even if he's tried in US courts, there will be an audience comprised of world government who (Dubbyah's remarkable isolationism in all other respects notwithstanding) will be watching carefully to see how much justice he receives in a land that has already turned over all possible suspects to military courts instead of civilian ones.

The folks here have basically boiled the tape's origins down to two theories: 1) The tape is genuinely bin Laden and the US was very fortuitious in coming into possession of it, and 2) It's a forgery designed to drum up support for the United States among the moderate Arab nations and the rest of the world (after all, it's been three months since the World Trade Center attacks and ILM can make a realistic CGI movie in that time).

It does seem awfully convenient that the tape "just happened" to be found and "just happened" to show exactly what Americans want to hear as we go about exacting vengeance upon the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden. It is also very convenient that no one can fully explain how the tape came into the possession of the US, except to factor in a lot of luck.

I would like to propose a third theory: The United States (or some other third party) has a mole within Al-Qaeda who made/copied the tape and left it where he knew the Americans would find it. The United States won't reveal the tape's source for fear of compromising its agent. If we do indeed have an agent who is close to bin Laden, it would not be advantageous to extract/expose the mole, but we would want to show the tape to the world to legitimise our military actions in Afghanistan.

On the other side, why would we then make public this video that Osama bin Laden surely knows was made by someone close to him, and risk tipping off that we have an agent within his ranks? That's something I can't answer.

the obvious reason for me that he or his group would let a tape like this out is....

first...exactly what SS said ...gj and well put...

second...he could be looking for a last rally to arms from his followers. By admitting he did it all then maybe he figures he will be that much more admired.

third...if he has sum final plans...that he feels may or may not end in a success then this would be his "goodbye" to the world...his way of saying "ya i did it...and ya i'm happy bout it...and no you can't stop us because we are hollier that tho..." <---which is really a big crock of shat

fourth....it may be sumthing he never planned to get out till after he is dead...for all we know they we high on poppies during the taping and couldn't make good decisions (can insane peeps even make them in the first place?) Maybe he never planned for it to get out..maybe one of his followers decided to use the tape to buy their imunity

and lastly....as i said be4...it really doesn't matter...hes going down no matter what...and hopefully he will be brought in alive....that would make my year and i'm sure we would all like to see his trial on TV....for that matter many of us want to see his execution

btw....you can never rule out that the tape is a fraud...unless they admit to it...but at this point do we as AMERICANS really care?

If it was proven our government fabricated the tape...it would not change my view on the whole situation one bit. I never have had much faith in our democracy but i do have faith in our people and they are what is driving our government currently....thus i feel that our system shall prevail and we shall have justice.