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I have an idea for a 'femme fatale' build that combines good social and thieving skills with big cleaves and criticals, through the use of Able Learner and a good INT score:

Tiefling R1/F20/FB2/WM7

I am planning to dual-wield scythes, but I am unsure about the 2 FB levels in there... do I need to get level 21 in a class before I can access Perfect Two-weapon Fighting? If that's the case, I think those 2 FB levels for the sake of Supreme Cleave are a stupid choice compared to the extra offhand attacks I'd get by getting 2 more fighter levels and PTWF.

Does anyone know? Do I need level 21 in a single class to access PTWF?

You don't need more than the dex requirements for perfect two weapon fighting.

Really? That's great!

What confused me was [url="http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Two-Weapon_Fighting"]this[/url] page, which states 'Requirements: Character 21, Dexterity 25, Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Two-weapon Fighting."

You need 21 levels but not class levels. You need character levels.

R1/F20/FB2/WM7 is a level 20 character.

But R2/F20/FB2/WM7 is a level 21 character.

Remember you cannot PTWF without a 25 in dexterity which means that your strength score will be low and you will not have as much damage aside from the +4 WS damage. You will also have a terrible AB because you cannot weapon finesse a scythe.

I think you need ranger 21 because then you can be a strengther. But that would mean you have a terrible AC.

Also the penalty for monkey grip is -2. The penalty for dualwielding weapons greater than small size is -4. So you are going to have as a strengther a bad AB AND AC(platemail deactivate ranger abilities) or as a dexer an attrocious AB and no damage.

I recommend a NWN4Fighter14WM7FB5 and wield a scythe two handed in platemail.

Claudius wrote:You need 21 levels but not class levels. You need character levels.

R1/F20/FB2/WM7 is a level 20 character.

But R2/F20/FB2/WM7 is a level 21 character.

R1/F20/FB2/WM7 = 30 levels
R2/F20/FB2/WM7 = 31 levels

I see Hmm, I'm just not going to dw, that solves the whole problem I think. Or I will cheat to boost my dex to the required 25. And yes, I want to keep that 1 Rogue level at the start to start off with a nice set of skills. F4/WM14/FB5 is just a little too boring for me, if I was willing to suffer boredom to gain damage I would sooner go F14/B1/RDD10/FB5 so I'd at least get the wings

dual wield

Rather than attempting to dual-wield scythes, try dw on rapiers.

Damage is d6 & 2x instead of 2d4 & 4x, but (a lot) more chances for critical and even chances for high damage instead of an exaggerated bell curve.
There is no requirement for monkeygrip or exotic weapons for use of rapiers since they are already one-handed [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Feats_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Feats.id=45"]martial[/url]/[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Feats_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Feats.id=50"]thief[/url]/[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Feats_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Feats.id=256"]elven[/url] weapons.

This means that you have two feat slots freed up for something else automatically.

ALSO, magical rapiers are easier to get in NWN2 (OC) and more user friendly.
Check out [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Items.id=1506"]Rapier of the High Road[/url] (remember that acid or fire is needed to finish off trolls), [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Items.id=1491"]Bleederkin[/url], [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Items.id=1497"]Namarra[/url], [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Items.id=1499"]Needles[/url], and [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=NWN2_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&NWN2_Items.id=1507"]Stirge[/url]; every one of these are available as scripted drops. All of these except for RotHR can be further enhanced to max enhancement to hit and then add acid damage and Needles is already keen.

I just wish that Atari had kept WoC's DnD rule about keen and improved crit stacking (2x to 3x instead of 2x to 4x, tho).

actually try kukris. Rapier does 1 more average damage but kukris will have +2 AB...

What about...

Air Genasi
Rogue 4 uncanny dodge, evasion
Swash 3 int damage
Fighter 6
WM 7

STR 14
Dex 18 +5
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 6
Cha 6

feats: Able Learner, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, WF Kukri, Spring Attack, Whirlwind, WS kukri, TWF, ITWF, GTWF...

kukris??

Kukri requires Weapon Proficiency (martial).
Getting the martial weapons requires either a cross-class bringing it in (and possible penalties to XP) or one less available for elsewhere.
ALSO, I couldn't find any mention of a +2 BAB for the kukri -vs.- the rapier (are you referring to the difference between having a medium weapon in your off-hand -vs.- having a light one there).

IF the rapier is considered medium for DW, then it becomes a viable option. The problem is the skill points available at level-up.

Another consideration is the capabilities to find the items in game. Like I mentioned, the rapiers are available as in-game scripted drops or allowed purchases; the kukris are much more limited in availability.

Fighter has WP martial. Rapiers are medium weapons. If your going to all the trouble to take WM might as well have your bonus apply to both hands. If not a WM then Kukri + Rapier is fine. Take craft arms and armor and you can craft kukris....

I did a similar build, but to avoid the penalties from a large wpn/monkey grip, I got focus on short sword. (1d6 but with better crits). The build was the following: 1R/14F/10SD. I wouldnt recommend going for FB, since his synergy is a lot better with STR based chars and we must be DEX based in order to get PWFT.

I figured WPM is not recommend because of the same reason and you also need to learn lots of useless skills. In order to use 1 whirlwind you would have to exchange 10 normal attacks 0.0. Conclusion: definitely not worth the 7 lvls + bunch of feats. Remember: you r focused in doing many attacks, not single imba ones.
SD, on the other hand, is quite useful against pure dmg spells (most are reflex saving) and he has many neat abilities (slippery mind/uncanny/improved evasion anyone?) with nice synergy for DEX based.
The lvl 1 at rogue helps you get the prerequisite skills for the SD early on and with the able learner feat, makes your fighter a descent skilled rogue (in case you don`t one speciallized one in your party).
To top it all, at lvl 14f, you are able to get a LOT of feats to max out your combat skills, specially the epic wpn focus and epic wpn speciallization at 14f.

With this build you will have really nice dmg/AC/Fortitude/Reflex. The main vulnerability of this build are the WILL saves, but you can easily overcome that with steadfast determination/slippery mind + some immunity items (freedom of movement and stuff like that) or mind blank spells against pesky mages.

I have been using it and it works like a charm! I could give more details in case some is interested.

Claudius wrote:actually try kukris. Rapier does 1 more average damage but kukris will have +2 AB...

What about...

Air Genasi
Rogue 4 uncanny dodge, evasion
Swash 3 int damage
Fighter 6
WM 7

STR 14
Dex 18 +5
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 6
Cha 6

feats: Able Learner, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, WF Kukri, Spring Attack, Whirlwind, WS kukri, TWF, ITWF, GTWF...

Looks like a nice build, but you need to start with DEX 20 to get PTWF, unless you want to get it really late game. Plus, int 18 seems kinda problematic against stuff that is immune to crit hits, I would put part of it to DEX to get the early PTWF.
I also would miss the extra figher feats like epic wpn focus/specialization, but overrall seems pretty good. Best one around here, IMO ^^

I think its a SoZ build and if you intend to hit character level 21 then by all means take Dex 20 Int 14 and take PTFW at level 21...

Honestly I don't like the power curve of the build however because you won't be getting your crits for awhile, but you will be getting some and the extra damage will help more than the AB since there is not many crit immunes in SoZ. Also if you want to have skills you need intelligence with all that 2 skill point classes.

I got SoZ on the brain!

But I know the OP is about PTWF critter

so

21 F7 Epic Prowess
22 F8 GWF kukri
23 F9 Great Dex 1
24 F10 EWF kukri dex +1 = 25
25 F11 Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
26 F12 GWS kukri
27 F13 Expose Weakness
28 F14 EWS kukri dex +1 =26
29 F15 Combat Insight
30 F16 Armor Skin

So your delaying PTWF in order to get a better point buy for stats.....buying a 20 is expensive!

As for the comment about what if crit immunes....well weapon masters are not good against them....much like lone barbarians with no mind immunity items and 6 wisdom are not good against casters with epic spell focus enchantment lol

Claudius wrote:I think its a SoZ build and if you intend to hit character level 21 then by all means take Dex 20 Int 14 and take PTFW at level 21...

Honestly I don't like the power curve of the build however because you won't be getting your crits for awhile, but you will be getting some and the extra damage will help more than the AB since there is not many crit immunes in SoZ. Also if you want to have skills you need intelligence with all that 2 skill point classes.

I got SoZ on the brain!

I see. I was thinking about MotB, where the fun starts at epic lvls, but for SoZ, don`t even think about it. I finished doing almost 100% of the side quests at lvl 16 (6 party team), with a small party and some grinding you may make it to 20 or 21, but definitely not worth planning your build on that.

Personally, I'd trade a few other levels for Ranger, to get the automatic dual wield ability, for free, then go from there. Pre-build the character for what you want, when you are first starting out. I'd worry more about Strength, Dex, and Con. than anything else. And get yourself toughness, as well. Having an additional hp per level up can be a good thing, as well. That's how I'd build my character up. But that's just one opinion.

Sir Twist wrote:Personally, I'd trade a few other levels for Ranger, to get the automatic dual wield ability, for free, then go from there. Pre-build the character for what you want, when you are first starting out. I'd worry more about Strength, Dex, and Con. than anything else. And get yourself toughness, as well. Having an additional hp per level up can be a good thing, as well. That's how I'd build my character up. But that's just one opinion.

IMO, the extra hp from toughness is quite useless, but still, toughness is a good feat to get in case you want steadfast determination/indomitable soul to make up for the lack of will.
Also, the levels in ranger are not worth for the "free" TWF feats. To get PTWF for "free" you need 21 levels in the ranger for example. Besides we wont have enough WIS to use the spells, he has less hp than the fighter and, to top it all, with the same level you would get any TWF feat for free with the ranger, with the fighter you would have already gotten enough bonus feats to get them +some other feats of your choice.

taikanatur wrote:IMO, the extra hp from toughness is quite useless, but still, toughness is a good feat to get in case you want steadfast determination/indomitable soul to make up for the lack of will.
Also, the levels in ranger are not worth for the "free" TWF feats. To get PTWF for "free" you need 21 levels in the ranger for example. Besides we wont have enough WIS to use the spells, he has less hp/BAB than the fighter and, to top it all, with the same level you would get any TWF feat, with the fighter you would have already gotten enough bonus feats to get them +some other feats of your choice.

I meant to use the ranger as a start, until you get the TWF feat, at level two. But then again, with a high dex, etc., you won't really need heavy armor, until you become a fighter, or whatever else you want, from there. If you build your initial character right, you can build up the strength, dex, and con high, initially, then at level raises, raise the other things you need to, like intelligence, wisdom, etc. Another thing you do get, which is cool, as well, is one favored enemy, at level one, so you get an additional spot/listen to those scores, against that enemy. But there are other ways around these potential problems, though.