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I'm having a bit more free time on my hands than usual, so after completing well-known RPG series such as Might & Magic, Wizardry, The Elder Scrolls and alike, I decided to give a try playing this ancient game - Icewind Dale. This is the first game I've tried where you have to memorize spells rather than cast it at the cost of mana, so quite a few things were... confusing, at the very least.

Disclaimer #1: I don't care much for storyline or for roleplay - I'm here to whack and smash as well as everywhere else. So I'd rather ask roleplayers either to stop reading, or to not flame me...
Disclaimer #2: English is far from my native language, so sorry in advance.

Well, I've started with some random party and completed it as far as Temple of the Forgotten God. There, after being killed several times by the final group of priests, I deleted it and restarted. Here are some things I realized (correct me if I'm wrong).

I.1) Pure mages suck major ass. As magic in IWD is a bit more realistic than I'm used to (for example, fireball damaging my own party is like... nonsense for me), I don't see how can pure mages be effectively used. I can not cast from behind of my tanks, because AoE (area on effects, like fireball mentioned) would damage tanks as well. I can't send my mage(s) ahead because spells can be interrupted (not just slowed, like in World of Warcraft, but completely interrupted) by mere melee damage.

I.2) Pure thief sucks as much. Too damn crappy damage, thief skills maxed in no time. A class with like... no future?

I.3) Ranged weapons might rock, but I grew sooo tired of selecting every character and switching his quick weapons from ranged to melee when mobs come closer, so I decided to never use ranged (unless you HAVE TO, like when it comes to fighting bombardier beetles or blast skeletons).

I.4) Because of narrow tunnels, large party doesn't rock as much as expected... usually 1-2 party members are just slacking, having no line of sight and no space for melee battle.


So I made a heavy melee party of paladin leader (large sword/great sword/bow), fighter-mage (great sword/halberd/bow), fighter-thief (axe/crossbow/spear), and pure cleric (mace/flail/missile, which doesn't really matter). So far I'm doing rather well (done as far as Severed Hand), but still, there are some questions... simple ones first.

II.1) Is there any way to switch the whole party between ranged/melee weapons?

II.2) Is there any way to auto-turn on Find Traps after every combat?

II.3) Is there any key to "select whole party", except for "=" key which location is not really handy?

II.4) Is there any point to raise thief skills over 100%? I'm having 120% find traps, but still, my warthief sometimes triggers traps even when I send him to scout with Find Traps on...

Finally - some MAJOR questions.

II.5) Explain me please, how does this weird AD&D fight system work! %) What is the difference between "turn" and "round"? What is "speed factor" of a weapon, how does it affect number of hits per given time? What is "lore"? Ok, proficiency & level affect number of hits per round, but does speed factor affect it as well? THAC0 affects chance to hit, as far as I can understand - but, how do I calculate exact chance? To be short: how do I convert these dice rolls, thac0, factors and etc to the plain simple DPS (damage per second) rate? Or, to be even simplier: how do I calculate which weapon is better? For example, 2d4 +2, +2 thac0, speed 5; or 1d10 +1, +1 thac0, speed 8, 15% chance +1d10 electrical damage? At first glance, former one is 2*(1+4)/2+2 = 7 damage, the latter one is (1+10)/2+1+(1+10)/2*0.15=7.325, but the former one has 1 more thac0, and lower delay I'm confused...

II.6) There is such a crapload of spells, and you can't really use them anytime because you have to memorize... So, in case I don't feel like saving, scouting, memorizing, resting and then going to fight - which spells would you consider worth memorising? As far as I see, DD (direct damage) spells do not really shine in case your mage has got a decent humansize doubleedged blade So far I'm using:
Mage lvl1: full of identify, obviously
Mage lvl2: full of ghoul touch, I praise this spell - paralyzed enemy is as good as dead and it is troll killer on top of that (no need for fire spells/weapons)!
Mage lvl3: slow?
Mage lvl4: confusion? dimension door? dunno...

Cleric lvl1: bless & cure light
Cleric lvl2: full of cure moderate; some hold person when fighting humansize creatures
Cleric lvl3: remove paralysis and the rest full of prayer
Cleric lvl4: neutralize poison and the rest full of recitation

Did I miss something good? Is defencive harmony worth using, or recitation is better? Some people suggest grease, but it looks like such a crap to me... 1 turn duration is like... nothing?

Gray wrote:
II.1) Is there any way to switch the whole party between ranged/melee weapons?

II.2) Is there any way to auto-turn on Find Traps after every combat?

II.3) Is there any key to "select whole party", except for "=" key which location is not really handy?

II.4) Is there any point to raise thief skills over 100%? I'm having 120% find traps, but still, my warthief sometimes triggers traps even when I send him to scout with Find Traps on...

1) No as far as I know you have to do for each individual - but there is a button on the screen if you are a fighter that allows you to see your weapon slots and there you can switch from melee to range combat.

2) Again no.

3) Again no - or at least I don't think so - someone with more knowledge than myself might give pointers on how to change keys.

4) the more the better - but once you reach 100% you really don't need anymore. I reason for hitting traps still when find trap is activated is that you move to fast when you scout - it takes a moment for the find trap to kick in as you move so move slower. And of course there are some traps that can not be found (i wont spoil it and tell you where -so be careful when and where you move.)

- most people who play a thief usually duals their thief to a mage or fighter after maxing out skills in IWD (it rather sucks that the thief after L7/9 is essentially a character that does not really improve - so dual-ing is a possibility to make your character more efficient. But be warned when you dual you will lose the skills of a thief until your new class is one class ahead of the old class - and as such you might be without thief skills for a long time.

I.1) You can pause the game anytime for aiming AOE spells or you can use summoning spells, buff spells or spells which affect only enemies.

I.2) Correct. But many have finished the game with such a weak character in the party.

I.3 + I.4) I usually put both a ranged and melee weapon into the quick weapon slot and assign a ranged attack script. So they auto-switch to melee when enemies get too close. I hardly ever need melee.


II.2) Assign a corresponding script to the character and have the AI enabled. I don't remember if there's an auto-detect script in the game, if not you might be able to write or download one somewhere if you really need one.

II.3) You could start the IWD configuration program and look if there's an option to change key assignment. But you can simply press space and assign the commands while the game is paused.

II.4) More than 100 is useless for lockpicking or trapfinding. Even less should be perfect.

II.5) In the manual the AD&D rules are explained (you seem to have understood it according to what you wrote) and you can read an in-depth faq here:
GameFAQs: Icewind Dale (PC) AD&D Rules FAQ by DSimpson
Speed factor only affects when during the round you attack and is therefore quite useless btw, the number of attacks per round are fixed.
Most important is how specialized you're in the weapon type you use.
1 turn are 10 rounds, lore is the ability to identify magical stuff without the identify spell.

II.6) Which spells are most useful depends on your playing style, here are some worth trying
mage1: magic missile, chromatic orb
mage2: strength, mirror image, web
mage3: haste
mage4: emotion hope, emotion courage, stoneskin
cleric3: animate dead
cleric4: protection from evil 10'

Gray wrote: I.1) Pure mages suck major ass.

I.2) Pure thief sucks as much.

Mages, used right, can be pretty deadly. Same with thieves, and used together, they're even better. Sneak with a thief to find a large group of enemies, and then have your mage drop a fireball just beside them, staying just outside of their line of sight. They're not great at lower levels, but are much more useful later in the game.

II.1) Is there any way to switch the whole party between ranged/melee weapons?

II.2) Is there any way to auto-turn on Find Traps after every combat?

II.3) Is there any key to "select whole party", except for "=" key which location is not really handy?

II.4) Is there any point to raise thief skills over 100%? I'm having 120% find traps, but still, my warthief sometimes triggers traps even when I send him to scout with Find Traps on...

1. There's no direct way to do it, but there might be a script you can give your character to make them automatically do this. You can give each character a script in their character info screen.

2. Again, their might be a script to do this, but no, there's no way to make it run auto.

3. There should be a way to remap keys, either by using a setup program for the game (if it has one...I don't remember) or by altering the .ini file for the game. Not entirely sure, though...its been years since I've played.

4. Open locks and Find Traps don't need to be raised over 100%. Pickpocketing and Stealth do benefit from a higher score though.

II.5) Explain me please, how does this weird AD&D fight system work! %) What is the difference between "turn" and "round"? What is "speed factor" of a weapon, how does it affect number of hits per given time? What is "lore"? Ok, proficiency & level affect number of hits per round, but does speed factor affect it as well? THAC0 affects chance to hit, as far as I can understand - but, how do I calculate exact chance? To be short: how do I convert these dice rolls, thac0, factors and etc to the plain simple DPS (damage per second) rate? Or, to be even simplier: how do I calculate which weapon is better? For example, 2d4 +2, +2 thac0, speed 5; or 1d10 +1, +1 thac0, speed 8, 15% chance +1d10 electrical damage? At first glance, former one is 2*(1+4)/2+2 = 7 damage, the latter one is (1+10)/2+1+(1+10)/2*0.15=7.325, but the former one has 1 more thac0, and lower delay I'm confused...

Yikes, I'll do my best. A turn is ten rounds, and each round is 6 seconds (so, a turn is a minute).

The speed factor of a weapon determines when in the round it attacks, so one with "low" (1 or 2) speed goes first, and "higher" (9 or 10) go at the end of the round. Useful for interrupting mages or doing damage before you get damaged back. It has no impact on attacks per round, since attacks per round is measured by your characters class and level.

Each unidentified item has a certain lore value, and a character's lore score is used to determine if they can identify the item without spells. Lore is dependent on class (Mages and Thieves get higher lore, Bards get insanely high lore) and stats (Intelligence and Wisdom).

THAC0 stands for "To Hit Armour Class Zero". So, if a enemy has an armour class of zero, and your character has a THAC0 of 15, you need to roll a 15 in order to hit the enemy. If the enemy has an AC of -2, then you'd need a 17 to hit; if the enemy has an AC of 5, then you'd need a 10 to hit. Its sort of backwards, but that's AD&D for you. Each "to hit" roll is always done with a d20 (twenty-sided dice).

Weapon stats. 1d8 means ONE eight sided dice, so damage is 1-8. 2d4 means TWO four sided dice, so damage is 2-8. If a weapon is 1d6+3, then its damage is 4-9. +1 to THAC0 means that you have a greater chance of hitting the enemy (it subtracts one from your THAC0, making it more likely to hit).

Mage lvl1: full of identify, obviously
Mage lvl2: full of ghoul touch, I praise this spell - paralyzed enemy is as good as dead and it is troll killer on top of that (no need for fire spells/weapons)!
Mage lvl3: slow?
Mage lvl4: confusion? dimension door? dunno...

Off the top of my head...
Level 1 - Magic Missile is great. So is Chromatic Orb. Both get far better the higher level your character is, too. Identify is handy.
Level 2 - I'm a fan of web, Melf's Acid Arrow, and Horror.
Level 3 - Fireball or Lightning Bolt are good damage spells, but the best spell this level is HASTE. Doubles your characters attacks per round. Fire Arrow isn't bad, either.
Level 4 - Greater Malison lowers saving throws of baddies, which is good for more damage or other affects.

Cleric lvl1: bless & cure light
Cleric lvl2: full of cure moderate; some hold person when fighting humansize creatures
Cleric lvl3: remove paralysis and the rest full of prayer
Cleric lvl4: neutralize poison and the rest full of recitation

Did I miss something good? Is defencive harmony worth using, or recitation is better? Some people suggest grease, but it looks like such a crap to me... 1 turn duration is like... nothing?

Level 1 - You've got the main spells, there.
Level 2 - You've got the bases covered, too. I like Chant.
Level 3 - Don't really remember spells from this level.
Level 4 - Defensive Harmony is awesome, Protection from Evil 10' is very awesome.

First, thanks everyone for detailed answers!

Sensei wrote:- most people who play a thief usually duals their thief to a mage or fighter after maxing out skills in IWD (it rather sucks that the thief after L7/9 is essentially a character that does not really improve - so dual-ing is a possibility to make your character more efficient. But be warned when you dual you will lose the skills of a thief until your new class is one class ahead of the old class - and as such you might be without thief skills for a long time.

Yeah, this part I've already got somewhere in docs - that's why I dualled my thief in second party at the time of creation So far didn't have any chance to regret it... it fights like a fighter and picks like a thief! Pure fighter of the same exp would have been 1 level higher - but 12 extra hps shouldn't really matter that much, I guess.

kmonster wrote:I.1) You can pause the game anytime for aiming AOE spells or you can use summoning spells, buff spells or spells which affect only enemies.

Well... once I release pause, char starts to cast, but mobs start to move as well - which means they 1) move out of AOE area, 2) come close and interrupt the spell. So far I've mostly managed to land some fireballs on almost dead trolls (lying still, that is) only As for buff spells - you don't use them a lot (because there are not that many stackable mage buffs), so even a combo mage usually has enough slots for buff spells...

kmonster wrote:I.2) Correct. But many have finished the game with such a weak character in the party.

I guess there are some people in the world who have successfully ran a party of 6 thieves, because they wanted "some extra challenge". I'm no masochist, though

kmonster wrote:I.3 + I.4) I usually put both a ranged and melee weapon into the quick weapon slot and assign a ranged attack script. So they auto-switch to melee when enemies get too close. I hardly ever need melee.

Doh! Scripts are the part I've ignored until now Thanks!

kmonster wrote:II.2) Assign a corresponding script to the character and have the AI enabled. I don't remember if there's an auto-detect script in the game, if not you might be able to write or download one somewhere if you really need one.

Great idea! Any tip on where can I seek and download it, or any clues for making one myself?

kmonster wrote:II.3) You could start the IWD configuration program and look if there's an option to change key assignment. But you can simply press space and assign the commands while the game is paused.

That's THE problem there is no key in config to select party, and pausing/manually assigning is a bit... tedious?

kmonster wrote:1 turn are 10 rounds, lore is the ability to identify magical stuff without the identify spell.

OMG... ROFL @me :laugh: I didn't even know that you can ID an item without a spell or a vendor... Indeed, my leader who loots everything is pala with lore 0 - no wonders she have never identified anything! Thus my warmage having lvl1 spells full of id...

kmonster wrote:II.6) Which spells are most useful depends on your playing style, here are some worth trying
mage2: strength, mirror image, web
mage3: haste
mage4: emotion hope, emotion courage, stoneskin
cleric3: animate dead
cleric4: protection from evil 10'

- Strength won't help my party All my chars have got 18/50+ str, cleric 18 as well. It's so easy to create... just some 5-10 mins of rolling... I couldn't resist Mirror image protects just caster himself, so it couldn't be really helpful for the party... as for web, it should rock for ranged party only, no?
- Haste I've tried once... it looked like a drug to me. I.e. either you have to be permahastened, or you suffer from fatigue. I dunno how dangerous for combat stats fatigue is, so didn't use it just to be on the safe side. I'd rather slow enemies (that's mage's lvl3 as well) - they are going to die anyway
- Yeah, agreed - just got these spells. OTOH... what is actually better - Hope (+2 saving/attack/damage) or Courage (+1 hit, +3 damage, +5 hps)? Oh and btw - what is the difference between +1 hit and +1 attack?

Nightmare wrote:Mages, used right, can be pretty deadly. Same with thieves, and used together, they're even better. Sneak with a thief to find a large group of enemies, and then have your mage drop a fireball just beside them, staying just outside of their line of sight. They're not great at lower levels, but are much more useful later in the game.

Hmmm... sounds like a decent tactic, I'll try it! Otoh, that's just a single fireball before combat... even a combo class should have enough slots for these. I mean, really - in IWD mage just can't cast non-stop during combat like in other games, so what's the reason to have a weakling clothier in party, which casts 1-2 spells and then acts like a practice target for my healer, because of being whacked by all the mobs attracted? I'd rather draw a sword, wear plate armor back, and continue in melee!

Nightmare wrote:THAC0 stands for "To Hit Armour Class Zero". So, if a enemy has an armour class of zero, and your character has a THAC0 of 15, you need to roll a 15 in order to hit the enemy. If the enemy has an AC of -2, then you'd need a 17 to hit; if the enemy has an AC of 5, then you'd need a 10 to hit. Its sort of backwards, but that's AD&D for you. Each "to hit" roll is always done with a d20 (twenty-sided dice).

Geez... my chars (average lvl8) have got thac0 averaged at 11... everyone with melee weapons of thac0 3. Does that mean they have to roll 8+ out of 20 to hit an enemy?? That's just 60% hit chance... it can't be true, taking into account such decent weapons?

Nightmare wrote:Weapon stats. 1d8 means ONE eight sided dice, so damage is 1-8. 2d4 means TWO four sided dice, so damage is 2-8. If a weapon is 1d6+3, then its damage is 4-9. +1 to THAC0 means that you have a greater chance of hitting the enemy (it subtracts one from your THAC0, making it more likely to hit).

Yeps, damage part was an obvious one. Otoh, with best weapons doing 1d10 +3 (i.e. 13 damage max) I manage to hit for 28 damage sometimes! What does increase it so much? Is that str added to damage?

Also, some mobs (like armored skeletons) refuse to be damaged for more than 5. Is there some kind of damage mitigation/absorbtion?

Nightmare wrote:Level 2 - I'm a fan of web, Melf's Acid Arrow, and Horror.
Level 3 - Fireball or Lightning Bolt are good damage spells, but the best spell this level is HASTE. Doubles your characters attacks per round. Fire Arrow isn't bad, either.
Level 4 - Greater Malison lowers saving throws of baddies, which is good for more damage or other affects.

Level 4 - Defensive Harmony is awesome, Protection from Evil 10' is very awesome.

- Horror... to me, the most dangerous enemies are undeads, which are unaffected by it...
- Ehh, well, but... fatigue?
- -2 saving is that good? That's just save against attack spells (which I don't really use), no? I'd rather cast Hope or Courage (before combat, thus not wasting combat rounds, too)!

- Protection from evil - nothing but +2 AC and +2 saving - is better than Recitation, which is +2 attack and saving to my party, and -2 to attacks and savings of mobs?? How so?

So, here are some tips. I can not answer all your questions though.

First, damage. You've guessed it right, Strnegth does increase your damge with Melee weapons only. But your strenght has to be pretty high for that (>16). So, with a Strength of 18/00, you get 6 bonus damage. Neat!
And then you have Critical Hit. It's one of those lucky attack rolls, when your damage is doubled. You have exactly 5% chance to roll a critical hit and another 5% chance to roll a Critical Miss - which means your attack failed miserably.
Another way to deal lots of damage is to hide your thief in the shadows and backstab the enemy. The damage is then multiplied depending on the thief's level (and you can reach damagex3 relatively easy).

Also, some of the enemies have the ability to resist damage. They might take less damage or even no damage at all. In such cases try with a different type of weapons - in your case try using maces/hammers against the skeletons.

About the THAC0 - thac0 progression depends largely on your class. Fighters, rangers and paladins have the fastest thac0 progression - it decreases by 1 for each level they gain. Then, strength adds to your thac0 with melee weapons (provided it's 17 or higher), and dexterity - to your thac0 with ranged weapons (if it's 16 or higher). And then there come weapon proficiencies which decrease your thac0 with a specific weapon. So, a lvl 8 paladin with a strngth of 18+ and a +3 weapon should have a better thac0 than 11. You're doing something wrong.

Well, I guess weapon bonus is not displayed in character info screen... I can equip this or that weapon, or even remove weapon totally, but it doesn't change. Is there a way to see effective thac0 (with weapon bonus and str included), effective damage (again with str included)?

Oh, and also: what is actually 18/50 str? is that 18+5=23str, or 18*1.5=27str?

Well, I don't have IWD still installed, but I'm pretty sure you can see the actual thac0 in the character record. There should a line called base thac0 and another, called thac0 just underneath.
About the strength - for some obscure reason the strength for all warriror calsses (Paladins, Rangers and Fighters) and dual-classes is followed by some digits, the lowest being 18/01 and the highest 18/00 (which should be 18/100, actually). So, the higher the digit is, the greater the thac0 and damage bonus and the greater carry weight capacity. Thus, for a fighter, a strength of 18/01 is good, but a strength of 18/76 is super. All the other classes miss these digits in their strength (so, the can reach a strength of 18), but why, remains a mistery to me.

Find a Strength progression table on the Internet to check what those bonuses actually are.

Majorman wrote:Well, I don't have IWD still installed, but I'm pretty sure you can see the actual thac0 in the character record. There should a line called base thac0 and another, called thac0 just underneath.

That's the problem... there is just a single line containing "thac0" in char info Just "thac0", which is not modified by any weapons equipped. There are also "ability bonuses" below - "to hit", "to damage", etc - which are not affected by equipment as well...

You can easily calculate THAC0 yourself.
It starts at 20. Warriors substract 1 each level, Priests 2 every three levels, Rogues 1 every two levels and Mages 1 every three levels.
STR (or DEX) gives a to hit bonus (which actually makes THAC0 lower, jay for logical AD&D) as well. Check your tables in the manual.
+ X from a weapon lowers THAC0 with X.
Weapon proficiency gives a bonus too. The manual has a table for that too.
Then there are a few items and spells that gives bonuses. Normally, all of them stack.

Yea, got it... just too bad the game doesn't make these calculations itself I guess that because it's so damn old...

Well, there is another thingie. As far as I get it, opponent's AC adds to my hit roll. Is there a way to determine mob AC? Some kind of ID monster spell? Or hit cap is unreachable anyway?

The THAC0 you see in your character sheet is the actual THAC0, after weapon, STR, etc.
No, there's no spell to determine AC, but you can select "show to hit rolls" or "extra feedback" or something like that in one of the game menus. It should show your rolls in the dialogue window. (Be aware that even with multiple years of D&D experience I never mentioned to figure out the rolls that showed up. )
You can also find the AC of creatures in the game files, but I don't know which.

Gray wrote:- Strength won't help my party All my chars have got 18/50+ str, cleric 18 as well. It's so easy to create... just some 5-10 mins of rolling... I couldn't resist Mirror image protects just caster himself, so it couldn't be really helpful for the party... as for web, it should rock for ranged party only, no?
- Haste I've tried once... it looked like a drug to me. I.e. either you have to be permahastened, or you suffer from fatigue. I dunno how dangerous for combat stats fatigue is, so didn't use it just to be on the safe side. I'd rather slow enemies (that's mage's lvl3 as well) - they are going to die anyway
- Yeah, agreed - just got these spells. OTOH... what is actually better - Hope (+2 saving/attack/damage) or Courage (+1 hit, +3 damage, +5 hps)? Oh and btw - what is the difference between +1 hit and +1 attack?
- Protection from evil - nothing but +2 AC and +2 saving - is better than Recitation, which is +2 attack and saving to my party, and -2 to attacks and savings of mobs?? How so?

- there's a considerable difference between 18/50 and 18/00 strength. Even the step from 18/99 to 18/00 is as big as from 16 to 18.
- there's a way to heal fatigue. It's called resting. There's no time limit in the game.
- I'd use both emotion spells together, which is better depends on what kind of enemies you face, hit and attack describe the same
- Protection from Evil lasts ten times as long as recitation and even offers immunity to charm spells.

Gray wrote: Geez... my chars (average lvl8) have got thac0 averaged at 11... everyone with melee weapons of thac0 3. Does that mean they have to roll 8+ out of 20 to hit an enemy?? That's just 60% hit chance... it can't be true, taking into account such decent weapons?

...

Also, some mobs (like armored skeletons) refuse to be damaged for more than 5. Is there some kind of damage mitigation/absorbtion?

...

- -2 saving is that good? That's just save against attack spells (which I don't really use), no? I'd rather cast Hope or Courage (before combat, thus not wasting combat rounds, too)!

- Protection from evil - nothing but +2 AC and +2 saving - is better than Recitation, which is +2 attack and saving to my party, and -2 to attacks and savings of mobs?? How so?

You're calculating it about right, but that's to hit an AC of zero. If an enemy has an AC of 5, then you'd need to roll 3+ out of 20 to hit given that THAC0. Bear in mind that a roll of 1 ALWAYS misses (critical miss) and a roll of 20 ALWAYS hits, for double damage.

As for the skeletons, its possibly they have resistances to Slashing and Piercing weapons. Blunt weapons might do full damage. That's how it is in D&D though...not entirely sure if it was implemented in the game.

I'd forgotten about the Emotion: Hope/Courage for Mage level 4, they're probably the best spells that level because they're decent buffs. Haste is key for harder battles because it doubles attacks per round. As kmonster said, Protection from Evil 10' is far better since it lasts very, very long.

GawainBS wrote:The THAC0 you see in your character sheet is the actual THAC0, after weapon, STR, etc.

It can not be true... If it was, [un]equipping a weapon with to hit bonus would have changed thac0 displayed in char screen - but it doesn't!

kmonster wrote:- there's a considerable difference between 18/50 and 18/00 strength. Even the step from 18/99 to 18/00 is as big as from 16 to 18.

Arrrrgh, ok, you've convinced me... just spent several hours reading and comprehending the manual. Oh my, I should have done it before... at least before creating my second party Wish I knew that str is THAT important - I would never accept a HALFLING for a warthief role...

kmonster wrote:- there's a way to heal fatigue. It's called resting. There's no time limit in the game.

Well... know what? There is no time limit, yes, but there is my patience limit, hehehe. I really dislike games where monsters respawn over time, especially in case they tend to respawn while my party is sleeping. Might and Magic series are perfect from this PoW: monsters respawn once per 2 years game time, so ones who want unlimited exp can have it, while ones who prefer to just complete the game can do it without seeing a single respawn. Needless to say that I belong to the second cathegory... that's why I prefer to sleep as seldom as possible.

Then again, even if there were no respawns, why would you need haste to deal a lot of damage in a little time? You don't even have to cast buffs/debufs - just memorize and use spells of direct damage and direct heal Who cares that you use about 10-15 spells to kill a pack of 5 skeletons? You can sleep after each combat anyway, no?

I don't like this way, sorry... it is ineffective from the effect per time PoW. I can deal even with the stongest packs of enemies casting some buff (like Bless or Hope) before combat, a buff like Prayer/Recitation plus debuff like Slow at the start of combat, and then some healing spell after combat to mitigate occassional damage. Why sleep after each combat if you can sleep once per hour (rl)? I'm still waiting for Real Challenge (tm) - a fight which would require full set of my skills and spells... but I'm having none Yxonomei (sp?) would have been as decent opponent as busty it is - too bad black isle guys didn't make it immune to ghoul touch...

Nightmare wrote:You're calculating it about right, but that's to hit an AC of zero. If an enemy has an AC of 5, then you'd need to roll 3+ out of 20 to hit given that THAC0. Bear in mind that a roll of 1 ALWAYS misses (critical miss) and a roll of 20 ALWAYS hits, for double damage.

Well... too bad I've never found (even in the manual) any mob stats I still have no clue what is AC of my average enemies - thus, no clue about hit cap and thus +to hit importance...

Nightmare wrote:As for the skeletons, its possibly they have resistances to Slashing and Piercing weapons. Blunt weapons might do full damage. That's how it is in D&D though...not entirely sure if it was implemented in the game.

It is - manual says the same thing... so I guess every melee combatant has to be proficient in some real weapon like greatsword/axe/halberd plus blunt weapon like mace/hammer/flail... oh well.

kmonster wrote:- Protection from Evil lasts ten times as long as recitation and even offers immunity to charm spells.

Nightmare wrote:I'd forgotten about the Emotion: Hope/Courage for Mage level 4, they're probably the best spells that level because they're decent buffs. Haste is key for harder battles because it doubles attacks per round. As kmonster said, Protection from Evil 10' is far better since it lasts very, very long.

I don't get it... Protection from Evil (single target) lasts a lot, yea - but even buffing an average party of 4 members doesn't worth 4 spell slots. And, Protection from Evil 10 yards lasts as long as Recitation - 1 round/level?

Quite a few points have been raised here and I have to say that I agree with some and disagree with others.

I much prefer the memorise spells to spells per mana system. I can't think of a great reason for this as I'd still prefer a system which just allows you to cast anything you know, whenever you like. People argue that it tires them spellcaster mentally and so should not be limitless, but then fighters can chug away for hours in a frenzy like state - and have you ever seen a heavyweight boxing fight? they spend most of the time hugging each other because they are so tired after 3 rounds. But there's nothing worse than running out of mana in the big fights or wasting all your inventory space on various sizes of potion bottle which you might or might not need.

I don't get on with the mage class in Icewind Dale 1 either and agree with most of your points. For my second trip through I went for 2 clerics instead. I'm glad someone has finally told me the benefit of Ghoul Touch though, lol. As far as I can tell, most people just have mages for the haste spell which is the ultimate big boss killer. Without the haste spell I have to collect and conserve potions of speed for the end battles. It's quite ironic, but hasted the big boss's die in seconds, but without it they go on forever.

My golden rule is to read every spell in huge detail, then forget about them. Firstly, any that says: 'upon a successful touch attack' - well, the whole point is that you don't want these guys in melee (unless dualed, but I like pure classes). Anything that says 'duration 1 round/turn' - hardly worth the effort. Anything which will hinder your team as much as the bad guys. Anything that says 'protection from' - there's no regular or serious elemental damage to bother with these. This basically leaves Cures, Summons, Buffers, Symbols, Remove, Identify, Haste, flamestrike and orbs. Most of which everyone seems to end up using and forgetting the rest...

I disagree with your view of thieves, or rogues as they call them here. I'm probably the only person who loves my pure rogues and can't have a party without 1. They basically do everything apart from fight melee. I agree it's irritating the way the find traps button is not permanently on, and I also don't like the way the stealth feature seems to always fail at the crucial moment, but other than that they are easily a crucial party member. It's so relaxing to be able to open every single chest/door in the game with ease, clear a room full of traps before pillaging, and to walk round an entire level unseen without wasting spells or potions. Arm them with a sling (I wish they could use arrows) and they can be very effective ranged attackers (In Icewind Dale 2 it was my thief who was one of only 2 party members who could inflict damage on the infamous Iron Golems). Also, many people forget that the rogue can use magical devices, another reason not to bother with mages. A rogue is effectively a dual classed character from day one, even a pure class, they just can't memorise the spells and have to collect scrolls and wands and risk self damage if the spell fails.

Being bored of ranged weapons is a big tactical mistake in Icewind Dale. The narrow corridors that encourage only two or three main fighters are a huge clue to this and you frustration at having unused party members languishing away from the battle is where your ranged attack comes into play. I always have a ranger who doesn't even bother specialising in anything other than bows. By the time he/she has 3/4 attacks per round, he/she'll be felling the bad guys before your fighters have even begun to get their teeth into them. Treat him/her like a mage and just keep them at the back and you'll never even need to bother switching weapons. Try to keep the team as specialised as possible and pretty soon you'll only need one fighter to hold up the mob while the rest of the team work their magic and missiles.

The button to select the whole party is the oblong one in the small circle near the pause button? Or did you mean a different kind of select all button?

Which sword is better? A simple +4 or a +2 with 1-6 cold damage? This is the eternal debate in the Icewind Dale series. Basically, they are about equal. You either have a boring sword which is easier to fight with or a fun sword which occasionally misses the target. I much prefer the fun swords because I love watching the bad guys go green then blue then red as the different acid/cold/fire damages hit them, even though the damage might be no better than using a normal higher grade sword, sometimes less. The irritating thing is that you HAVE to have the big boring swords to defeat the big bosses, the only time the + is really crucial. And because Icewind Dale makes it quite a job to keep swapping swords, even I always end up giving up on the fun swords (selling them for huge cash instead) and sticking with the boring +4's/+5's towards the end.

Whack and Smash versus roleplay? Again, Icewind Dale is good for both, which annoys both as well as satisfying both. As the other new poster stated, the quests die off quite quickly once you enter Dragon's Eye. The first half is all questy this and thats with some kind of greater purpose, the second half is just pure mercenary gut spilling, with the odd major exp bonus for certain quests if you can be bothered to either look for them or even notice them - such as delivering the book on mythals to Orrik or fetching the squirrels for the curator in the severed hand or helping the slaves in the frozen zoo. Once I had cleared out all of Dorn's Deep, I didn't really want to fight the big bad guy, it's possibly the biggest disappointment in the game as it comes just at the exact moment you feel really comfortable with you invincible team and just want a nice relaxing Orc castle to pillage, rather than an over extended end-game lock-in. Also disappointing is the number of merchants and what they sell. Again, as soon as you have enough money to buy anything, there's nothing to buy and that axe you had been saving up 3/4 of the game for is now fairly crappy looking compared to you current equipment. By the time you reach the Severed Hand your just buying flame arrows to help you buy more flame arrows, which is a bit dull. There's no real sense of merchant upgrading as the game upgrades in this game.

As a proud hack and slasher though, you should not be disappointed with Icewind Dale at all, there's barely a square where your sword is not dripping after a mere few feet. And, I agree, I can't stand regenerating monsters either regardless of free xp cheese it gives, and I'm not a fan of having to go all the way back to Kuldahar just to rest easy then trek all the way back to the front line just because one party member has dropped a bit of HP or a spellcaster has used all their spells. But it's a lot better than those games where if you forget to open a box or want to go out to work you have to clear out the entire level again. In that respect Icewind Dale beats Diablo and BG (?) hands down.

Gray wrote:It can not be true... If it was, [un]equipping a weapon with to hit bonus would have changed thac0 displayed in char screen - but it doesn't!

Still, it is the modified THAC0 that is displayed. If you just remove the weapon, you lose the bonuses for being proficient with it and the + X bonus, and I think that you also suffer a THAC0 penalty for fighting unarmed. Just replace your +X Longsword with a regular Longsword to check.

LastDanceSaloon wrote:I much prefer the memorise spells to spells per mana system. I can't think of a great reason for this as I'd still prefer a system which just allows you to cast anything you know, whenever you like. People argue that it tires them spellcaster mentally and so should not be limitless, but then fighters can chug away for hours in a frenzy like state - and have you ever seen a heavyweight boxing fight? they spend most of the time hugging each other because they are so tired after 3 rounds. But there's nothing worse than running out of mana in the big fights or wasting all your inventory space on various sizes of potion bottle which you might or might not need.

Heh... you can as well run out of memorized spells in a big fight. The only difference is that you can put your mana into the most efficient spell anytime, while you have to PREDICT what is going to be most efficient with the slot system I'm not much of Phileas Fogg when it goes for forecast, nor I'm big fan of rubbing hole in save/load buttons. When I was young, I had hundred posts long discussions (or I should have said "flamewars"?) with roleplayers concerning this and a lot of other RPG aspects... now I just won't Tastes differ, 'nuff said.

LastDanceSaloon wrote:As far as I can tell, most people just have mages for the haste spell which is the ultimate big boss killer.

I'll cast it too (together with clerical Righteous Wrath, which causes fatigue as well), once I manage to encounter something worthy - and I'll let my guys and girls happily sleep after that victory Though, that is not a spell for regular combat, for the reasons I've stated above...

Now, I just quote things I disagree with.

LastDanceSaloon wrote:Firstly, any that says: 'upon a successful touch attack' - well, the whole point is that you don't want these guys in melee (unless dualed, but I like pure classes).

Ghoul touch is GREAT when it goes for multiclassed mage! Nail that Big Bad Enemy Caster with translocation arrow, and insta touch him after that - you are free to finish his friends unrestrained. Direct damage can be done with sharp (or rather blunt) enhanced steel, all you need from magic is a) protection buffs, b) evil debuffs for enemies, and c) CONTROL

LastDanceSaloon wrote:Anything that says 'duration 1 round/turn' - hardly worth the effort.

Not true at all. Things that affect the whole party AND almost every enemy on sight - are great as well, even if they last some 5-7 rounds. I don't recall much combats that weren't finished in 5 rounds... That's just a single spell at the start of combat, but in case you don't cast it, you will have to cast some 3-5 extra curative spells after: efficiency!

LastDanceSaloon wrote:They basically do everything apart from fight melee. ...

Everything said can be as well said about multiclass thief Actually, I regret already about taking this multiclass in party... not that I wanted pure thief, but rather the opposite: I don't really feel like developing thief skills any further, wasting experience points. I should have taken a human pure thief instead, and dual classed him to fighter at lvl10. Human thief starts with sum of traps+locks+stealth at 85 (I despise picking pockets), there are easily obtainable armor of +15 stealth, ring of +15 stealth and belt of 10 traps/5 locks. Every thief level you gain 20 points to distribute to thief skills, so at lvl10 you get 100 traps, 100 locks, 110 stealth and x4 backstab damage, which is cap. Geez, that's just 160k exp - you gain it somewhere after Dragon's Eye! Then you can dual to fighter and quickly gain 10 fighter levels - there are few traps in the Hand and next to no traps in Dorn's anyway. And then you benefit from insane combat bonuses of pure fighter AND from the full set of thief abilities, weee

LastDanceSaloon wrote:Being bored of ranged weapons is a big tactical mistake in Icewind Dale.

Well, dunno, dunno... After finding in Shattered Hand lots of decent arrows, I decided to give this tactic a try: transferred them all to my pala, moved her to the rear and let my warthief lead (and discover traps by the way). So far I haven't noticed any increase in her experience value of kills in party... while arrows are almost out. Well yes, she's using Kaylessa's bow, having 3 attacks per round and 18 dex... but I guess melee weapons do as much dps, and they are not expendable, too.

LastDanceSaloon wrote:The button to select the whole party is the oblong one in the small circle near the pause button? Or did you mean a different kind of select all button?

I've asked for a KEY (which means keyboard key) rather than button... You don't really get much APM (actions per minute) in case you have to drag your mouse here and there, do you?

LastDanceSaloon wrote:Which sword is better? A simple +4 or a +2 with 1-6 cold damage? This is the eternal debate in the Icewind Dale series. Basically, they are about equal.

Well, they are not as 1d6 cold damage is 3.5dmg at average, which is more than 2! But that's not the hardest part... THE question is: what is better - +1 to hit or +1 to dmg? Basically, if you assume that opponent of my level (lvl9) has, say, 2 AC, and I have 12 thac0, and weapon +3 - this means that I need to roll 7+ to hit it. That is 70% chance to hit. +1 more hit would give me 75% chance, which is 7% more dps. Assuming that I do 8.5 average damage with +4 bonus from strength 18/76+, it would average my damage at 12.5. So, +1 more damage improves my dps by 8%. Conclusion: I need damage first, to hit later. But these are but assumptions I lack real INFO! I.e. what is AC of my enemies? Does my weapon to hit really add to thac0 displayed, or it is already included in it? Why do I hit for 28 damage non-critical sometimes, having 1d10+3 sword at best (which is 13+4=17 damage MAXIMUM)? And so on...

Oh, just to remind a thing You're talking to a powerplayer/munchkin/whatever you call it (it doesn't matter to me anyway). Powergamer doesn't care for such terms as "boring", but rather for such as "powerful' So I just welcome such aspects as enforcement to use "big boring swords" and dying quests, hehehe... Btw, "that axe you had been saving up 3/4 of the game" I've already bought, before completing even half the chapters... as well as "that imbo helm of +3 AC", "that super belt of lockpicking", and so on. Seems you just didn't care to vendor every last scrap of loot you've found!

LastDanceSaloon wrote:As a proud hack and slasher though, you should not be disappointed with Icewind Dale at all, ... In that respect Icewind Dale beats Diablo and BG (?) hands down.

Well, I guess as soon as I achieve full info about mechanics and statistics, as well as usable scripts, I won't be disappointed. Too bad, there is slot magic system, respawning mobs and no long-distance teleportation spells - but that's better that nothing anyway, and certainly better than tedious games such as Thief. Btw, Diablo roxx bigtime! Just because spells are cast for mana, mobs never respawn there unless you exit the game and reload, and there are also portal scrolls available to every class which are great help when it goes to selling your loot! *is waiting for Diablo III*

GawainBS wrote:Still, it is the modified THAC0 that is displayed. If you just remove the weapon, you lose the bonuses for being proficient with it and the + X bonus, and I think that you also suffer a THAC0 penalty for fighting unarmed. Just replace your +X Longsword with a regular Longsword to check.

Just tried it. Either with my broadsword +2, or with common longsword, or with high quality longsword, or with longsword +1 - I'm having thac0 of 12. I guess listed value doesn't really include weapon bonus...

Gray wrote: Just tried it. Either with my broadsword +2, or with common longsword, or with high quality longsword, or with longsword +1 - I'm having thac0 of 12. I guess listed value doesn't really include weapon bonus...

Strange. I probably had some other IE game in mind. Sorry. Anyway, THAC0 is calculable.

Indeed it is, as well as everything else That's why I'm here - please HELP ME TO CALCULATE it!