GameBanshee Forums

Please, I would like some help with this build, I want him to focus in combat but still be a capable caster, here's what I've got so far:

BattleMage | NWN2 Character Builder

Some things I noticed while I tested my build in the Trial and Terror module (Trial and Terror -- Neverwinter Nights 2 Vault

-My spell DCs are kind of low even though I have a caster level: 31, Do I necessarly have to burn some feats in great intellingence if I want to be a good offensive caster?

-I need a better AC

-I need to buff a lot before I can fight anything effectively, which is annoying.

-I am not too sure with my feat selection so maybe someone can tell me wich feats aren't critical to have, specifically:

The Still and Auto still feats: I love being able to wear a full adamantine plate armor (instead of the fugly EK shirt) and still cast level 9 spells but considering I can only do this by level 29 and I need to use 4 feats to do it I am starting to wonder if it is really worth it.

Power Critical(no to be confused with Improved critical: Is this feat usefull at all? I use scythe for the awesome criticals but since in epic levels everyone and their mother is inmune to criticals this becomes redundant, maybe I could use something I could wield along with a shield for extra AC.

Spell Penetration Feats: How useful are these? because of my spell DCs I've using magic mostly to buff myself more than anything, but I still use some offensive spells that have a high DC or allow no save, perhaps Great intellegence is a better choice?

-Lastly, my caster level, I read somwhere that a level 30 caster doesn't have any more spells than a level 20 caster, is this true? if so then maybe I can take a few more levels of fighter for the extra feats and BaB, although I suppose this would severly lower my spell DCs, again tho', so far I've been using spells mainly to buff myself so maybe having a higher BaB would be worth it, what would be better at this point with my build?

Offensive Magic and Melee characters are best served by the Druid class.


However..

For your build you need to determine which is more important to you:

Offensive Magic?

or

Melee?


IMO - if its Melee then you're build is all wrong.

If it's magic then you just have to realize that IF/WHEN you need to melee, that it will require several "buff's".

The build itself suggests that you must rely on buff's for melee. Do without them and you'll often fail with melee.



So IF we concentrate on magic with this character then:


Auto Still 0-9 can be important. NOT for wearing armor, but rather for Iron Body and casting (..and casting needed for melee - see "Tenser's" below).

Basically this type of character should, (except for dire situations), use Magic offensivly.


IF the character needs melee THEN:

The "buffing" should center around Tenser's Transformation. Where you do all of your other buff's first and then cast Tenser's last. Tenser's not only improves your base attack, but it also improves your attributes (for melee). This in turn allows you to forgo Strength, and instead focus on Intelligence, which in turn improves your DC spells. Note that it does work in combination with your existing BAB, so improving your BAB with the EK class is an *excellent* thing to do.

Weapon focus and weapon enhancements won't "bleed" through to your Tenser's Greatsword. So forget weapon focuses all together. There are other magical feats you need much more.

However Improved Critical Greatsword DOES work with Tensers - get it, but only very late in the build. Power Critical for this type of character isn't worth the feat expenditure.


So to start off:

1. START the build with the Wizard class to avoid the Strength requirement from the Fighter class.
2. Start the build (Human) with 18 in Intelligence, and continue increasing that stat to the exclusion of everything else. Starting: Dex - 14, Con 14, Wisdom 12, Strength and Charisma - 8.
3. Your first feat should be Spellcasting Prodigy. Second feat should be Spell Focus Necromancy.
4. You should continue with the Wizard class for 5 levels before selecting your ONLY level of Fighter.
5. At 3rd level select Extend Spell.
6. At 4th level +1 Intelligence (and keep this up).
7. At 5th level Empower Spell.
8. At 6th level Fighter Class with Fighter feat Blind Fight. Regular feat Craft Wand.
9. At 7th level start into your EK class and continue with this class until it's finished.
10.At 8th level +1 Intelligence.
11.At 9th level Greater Spell focus Necromancy.
12.At 12th level Skill focus Spellcraft. (..needed for ASoC class.) Also +1 Intellignece.
13.At 15th level Persistent Spell. (..potentially switch to ASoC class here, see "4th" below.)
14.At 16th level +1 Intelligence.
15.At 17th level start ASoC class.
16.At 18th level Still Spell.
17.At 19th your *FINAL* CLASS LEVEL OF ASoC!


OK.. so why this format?

1st - 3rd level spells opens up access to powerful offensive spells, best to get those as soon as possible and that's pushing the build through to level 5 Wizard before other classes are added-in.

2nd - The attributes are crafted in a manner consistent with a good spell caster. Of primary importance to a Wizard is Intelligence. Dex. is there for increased effectiveness with Mirror Image, and increased AC in general, for better ranged touch attacks, and better Reflex saves. Constitution is higher for Hitpoints and Fortitude saves. Wisdom is there for Will saves. Strength and Charisma are much less important. Strength is modified (in the case of melee), via Tensers.

3rd - The Fighter level gets you Blind Fight essentially for free at a time before you'll probably need it for most modules. It also gets you the required Martial Weapon Proficiency for EK class. Finally it improves your Attack numbers.

4th - The EK class should be started as early as possible and this is it (..without having to spend a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency). This class is there to improve BAB and Fortitude saves. Note that you can suspend this class for levels 13-15 for your ASoC class, and then resume the EK class at level 16 (..which I think would be better, but it depends on how soon you want Improved Empower Spell vs. a better BAB).

5th - The early (and continuing focus) on Necromancy is there for various necromancy spells with a save component. Particularly at epic levels the focus in Necromancy helps with Empowered Horrid Wilting and Epic Spell Vampric Feast. Empowered "Circle of Death" is particularly nice as an "A-Bomb" to "hordes". "Undeath to Death" is basically the "Circle of Death" equivalent for Undead (but rarely needs "empowering"). Both are *extremely* powerful when you can overcome the opponent's saves, and often underutilized.

6th- IMPROVED BAB is there to increase your Melee Touch Attack for Vampric Touch (3rd level spell). (..and later EMPOWERED Vampric Touch.) Overall this is a *better* method of "melee" attack for a Wizard (at least against single opponents). (..Higher potential damage in a round (that scales with class level), healing ability for your caster, No save, Negative Energy Damage (only Undead are immune to), disregards Armor, Shield, and Natural Armor bonuses.) It also improves your ranged touch attack BAB for "Orb" spells at 1st and 4th spell level.

7th - Craft Wand is an *essential* feat for a Wizard. It can provide lots of lower level spell casting at a fairly low cost, AND DOES NOT SUFFER FROM ARMOR CHECK PENALTIES. Additionally it doesn't require a somatic component - so its like using a Silent Spell for that spell. This is *very* important against Cleric's/Favored Souls casting Silence, and it usually voids the need for Auto Silent Spell feats.

8th - ASoC is ONLY worth the class for Improved Empower Spell which tops-out at 3rd level. You should NOT spend more class levels on this class, instead return to Wizard. Wizard provides you with bonus Feats.. Feats you'll need for your Still Spell listing and other desirable feats.

9th - Note that "Still Spell" is reserved as the final feat expenditure before Epic feats can be selected. The reason is that you'll never use Still Spell UNLESS it's an "Auto" still spell, otherwise the "price" is to high in spell level. INSTEAD you would use a spell "casted" from a *wand* which doesn't have a spell failure component.


EXTRAs:

AC - The most important physical Defensive spell is Mirror Image. (..an excellent spell to "extend".) It also works very well with AC modifiers (Improved Mage Armor *and* Spider Skin or Tensers), damage reduction spells like StoneSkins and Premonition, and concealment bonus spells like the "Visages".

Spells - 20th level is the "top" for normal spell progression, HOWEVER "purist" spell-casting classes like wizards, clerics, and druids still keep getting spells to select from at each level-up. Additionally - increases in Intelligence (for wizards) increases your number of spells per day (..and improving the situation with saves for spells with them). Additional levels also increases your class level for spell penetration. Additional class levels ALSO can effect the strength and duration of certain spells. Finally additional class levels can provide a greater number of feats, and access to epic feats (depending on your *native* spellcraft skill level as well).

Spell Penetration - as feats generally aren't that important. They are more important at "early" character levels when running into spell resistant races. (..to overcome that problem select a spell that doesn't have a penetration component - like the "Orbs".) At later levels you not only have a higher class level, but you also have access to various spells to "equalize" the problem (i.e. assay resistance, etc.). If you have lots of feats to spend - by all means get them, but if you don't then skip them (..and here you don't). Practiced Spell caster for a class with some "missing" arcane levels is usually more important than any of the Penetration feats. However, Practiced Spell caster isn't that important either.

Thanks for your input! Although I am not looking for a powergaming build you've helped me realize a few things, it seems like I'll have to focus on magic if I want to stick with this kind of character, I suppose If I want to focus on melee I'll have to use a Dex focused class and get Combat Insight right? (Or just roll a cleric, which I am not familiar with)

For epic levels then I'll still grab Auto still but get a few Great Intelligence feats, or more epic spells?

AsoC is only worth it for improved empower spells? I would have thought that improved maximize would still be useful. Finally, I really haven't used tenser much because of the +2 Greatsword, isn't that worthless against most high level enemies? or is there a way to get around that?

Juan_Anselm wrote:Thanks for your input! Although I am not looking for a powergaming build you've helped me realize a few things, it seems like I'll have to focus on magic if I want to stick with this kind of character, I suppose If I want to focus on melee I'll have to use a Dex focused class and get Combat Insight right? (Or just roll a cleric, which I am not familiar with)

For epic levels then I'll still grab Auto still but get a few Great Intelligence feats, or more epic spells?

AsoC is only worth it for improved empower spells? I would have thought that improved maximize would still be useful. Finally, I really haven't used tenser much because of the +2 Greatsword, isn't that worthless against most high level enemies? or is there a way to get around that?

What I've outlined isn't really a "power-gamer" approach, rather a natural extension of the limitations and solutions to those limitations that applies to this type of class structure.

As far as "Role-playing" is concerned - IF you want a classic "Spell-Sword" then look to a Bard or a Bard+ Sorcerer/EK. That will give you a better balance between Arcane Casting and Melee.

If you can see your way past the classical "Spell-Sword" character then a Druid really is the best with both Magic and Melee, BUT a Favored Soul isn't shabby either.

Epic Feats: Epic Focus Necromancy, Epic Spell Vampric Feast, possibly Improved Critical Greatsword.. THEN - IF you can squeeze another even number from you Intelligence with Intelligence feats.. OK.

Tensers with a few other "buffs" can provide enough damage for most enemies (high level or not).

Most of the time though Tenser's is there IF you have several *medium-to-high* level opponents that are resistant to magic.

Your single high level opponents are more easily dispatched with various spells. My favorite combo is:

1. Assay Resistance if necessary (..usually isn't)
2. Bigby's Grasping Hand. (..no save, not mental based, not effected by "freedom".)
3. Empowered Issac's Greater Missile Storm. (..if they have a summon or "hench" then dismiss or kill it first and then fire the Missile Storm.)

If you need the time not to be interrupted before casting the sequence then you can add at the start Ethereal Jaunt.

The only "difficult" opponent is a Demilich because it's immune to spells level 1-9. Except for Epic Spells, only the "Orbs" work on it.


ASoC - Empower has about the same net effect as a Maximised Spell. As "Improved", Empower is only one spell level above the base spell whereas Improved Maximise is higher in spell level.

I just tested a Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 10/ EK 10/ Dualist 7

With a human 17 int, 14 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Wis, 8 Chr.
(intelligence at each level-up.)


This worked out pretty well as a spell sword. (Tenser's NOT required.)


Depending on how you build it, it can either be balanced for magic and melee or shifted more toward magic.


(..note that you do need to use a light weapon or a Rapier, but you can stack a LOT of damage with this build.)


I went the "balanced" route:

Swashbuckler 1-3, For a good BAB to start with good damage via Insightful Strike.
Wizard 1-5, again to get those 3rd level spells started and for the EK requirement.

Then I interleaved EK and the Dualist class starting with the EK class. (..i.e. EK, Dualist, EK, Dualist..etc..)


You don't have to interleave the classes, but you do have to be careful what your classes are for certain Epic feats - at the time you can select those feats.


This type of build is actually quite strong with melee throughout the build. At level 4 you can cast Mage Armor and THEN put on light armor (so even AC isn't exactly bad).

What's nice here is that your Intelligence is not just being utilized for your Wizard class, it's also working on Insightful Strike and Canny Defense. So now your Intelligence attribute modifier can provide as much damage as you can modify your Intelligence, and up to +7 AC.

You can concentrate more on melee feats or magic feats (and likely some combination thereof).

One feat that IS more important (at higher character levels) this time is Practiced Spell Caster Wizard.

You still don't get to wear armor with this build, but you get almost as much AC as full plate at higher levels. Of course you can THEN increase that even more with the usual spells.

Even going the interleaved route this build has the potential to be much better than a Bard with both magic and melee at just about any level. Of course what it won't have are the Bard's epic songs (at epic levels). (..but at epic levels you'll have much higher level spells than a Bard.)

Of course this build (magically speaking) is NOT nearly as powerful as the full-on mage-type character, BUT it's a LOT better with Melee.

Anyway, it's an option.

Just thought I'd mention something that might be fun. Theres Kaedrin's Pack with new classes and feats and things and one class is the swiftblade...

If you go to level 30 you could make a Wiz 7 Swash 3 EK 10 Swiftblade 10 with practiced caster would have 26 caster level and 26 BAB which would be a hell of a fighter AND spells..

Don't know if your just playing the campaigns or what though..

Claudius wrote:Just thought I'd mention something that might be fun. Theres Kaedrin's Pack with new classes and feats and things and one class is the swiftblade...

If you go to level 30 you could make a Wiz 7 Swash 3 EK 10 Swiftblade 10 with practiced caster would have 26 caster level and 26 BAB which would be a hell of a fighter AND spells..

Don't know if your just playing the campaigns or what though..

I've perused them before..


Many (the swiftblade in particular), seem over powered to me.


High BAB progression AND +6 AB bonus?

If only any other melee class did so well.

..and of course it also has interleaved spell casting progression, AND other goodies.


Why yes, I'll have my cake and eat it too.. and while I'm at it send in those three gorgeous super-models.


Still, I think there is a need for a class like this, I just think it's *way* over-done.

Yes it doesn't really make a challenging game. But it does allow the power of gish (melee caster) to extend from level 20 builds into level 30..

I think you even get 50% concealment or something absurd

I just tested a Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 10/ EK 10/ Dualist 7

With a human 17 int, 14 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Wis, 8 Chr.
(intelligence at each level-up.)


This worked out pretty well as a spell sword. (Tenser's NOT required.)

Nice, I'm going to try this sort of character now, I've actually seen something like it before here Neverwinter Nights: Epic Eldritch Knight w/DC & Swash, dunno how well it works though, again thanks for your input =)

Ah, if only OB would add the Duskblade in another game or expansion...

EDIT: Demiliches, I came a across a few in the trial and terror module, the only way I managed to kill them was by spamming vampiric feast, which felt really cheap, as nothing else worked (I didn't knew that the orbs affected them though) and If I tried to melee them, even with tenser, the thing would just heal itself back to full health every single time I was about to finish it. Is there any strategy for dealing with these guys as a caster?

Try [url="http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2HakpaksOriginal.Detail&id=209"]this[/url]if you want a Duskblade.

Juan_Anselm wrote:
EDIT: Demiliches, I came a across a few in the trial and terror module, the only way I managed to kill them was by spamming vampiric feast, which felt really cheap, as nothing else worked (I didn't knew that the orbs affected them though) and If I tried to melee them, even with tenser, the thing would just heal itself back to full health every single time I was about to finish it. Is there any strategy for dealing with these guys as a caster?

It's a nasty little bugger:

Demilich - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

Immune to all offensive and counter-offensive spells *except*:

1. ALL Epic Spells,
2. The "Orbs", and only if they overcome the 20 resistance in Acid, Fire, or Sonic damage - NOT cold or electrical.

Yeah, that's it.

As a distraction however the spell Shadow Simulcrum (level 9) works well - summoning a shadow variant of the Demilch. Unfortunatly it doesn't do any damage.

Then there is physical damage:

1. Bludgeoning damage: IMMUNE.
2. Piercing damage: overcome 15 in damage, requires magical weapon.
3. Slashing damage: overcome 15 in damage, requires magical weapon.

The problem is that it can be very difficult to get both the damage and the attacks numbers up high enough to "chip-away" at it, particularly with a purely buffed Tenser's type.

What this description does NOT show is that it has a very high AC as well. To get even one hit in I typically need a character with at least one attack at 38+, and that even with good damage to overcome the reduction usually isn't enough. Basically you need more attacks to reduce its damage - so you really need a character with +42 for the first attack to kill the thing unless you have HUGE damage.

The ONLY summon that seems to work is a high level Druid: Dino/companion fully buffed with Greater Magic Fang, Nature's Avatar, and several protections.

Alternatively you *could* have elemental damage in your weapon higher than:
Acid:20
Fire:20
Sonic:20

..but that's pretty hard to achieve, usually requiring 5d6 of any one of those elemental damages.

Of course there is ALSO Divine damage as a modifier, so IF you can hit the thing then Divine Might/Epic Divine Might works really well.



Basically the suggestion then is that IF you are an Arcane caster then use:

Acid Orb Empowered. 3 of those should do the "trick".

I read that the lesser sonic orb is bugged to do the damage of the regular orb. I think that is correct. Might want to PM someone with more experience with bugs in NWN2. The epic builders guild part deux on the bioware forums probably has some threads and people with such knowledge on bugs.

That would let you use level 3 slots to deal damage to the lich though once you empower them. Or level 2 with an ASoCK.