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In the Harry Potter thread, the issue of "American ignorance" was discussed, and this made me start this thread regarding a question I've been pondering for a long time but previously didn't want to discuss here for fear of deterioration to a flame war. However, since the issue has already been touched upon, I decided to post this as a general discussion topic.

Where I live, in Sweden, "ignorant" Americans is an epithome as well established as "polite" Japanese or "efficient" Germans. Indeed, it seems like "American ignorance" is a widespread expression, and both Americans and non Americans are aware that Americans are often viewed as more ignorant that people from other countries. Now, why is this? Is it just an unfair, unfounded prejudiced based on cultural bias? Is it because American society value other types of knowledge than Europe or Asia? Or is there some truth in this image? How has the image come to be?

I think we have all heard the anecdotal stuff about Americans visiting Egypt and say things like "It's wonderful - the pyramids must be a thousand years old", so I won't go into more such stories, let's just say that numerous such stories exist, some are true, some are hearsay. But let's look at some statistical facts:

Voodoodali cited the International Mathematics and Science studies, I will elaborate on this here:
The Third International Mathematics and Science Studies (TIMSS) included 0.5 million students from 41 countries. The East Asian students were the top scoreres, together with Hungary, Finland and the Czech repulic. The US students only outperformed 4 countries in both maths and science - those countries were Iran, Cyprus, Portugal and Lithuania. Also rich European countries like the UK and Germany scored surprisingly low, although not at low as the US. IIRC the East Asian students were twice as good as the average.

Apart from comparing the means, the students performance can also be viewed by looking at the top 10% of all students, and see what countries they come from. Perhaps the US students have a low mean score, but it might be a question of large variability, ie a few very bad scorers might cause the mean to drop? However, this turned out not to be the case. No US student was even close the top 10% scorers.

However, another international study comparing 11 countries, measured reading ability in the students' mother toungue. The result showed that US students were somewhat above average in reading ability.

Geography tests where school kids get the task of drawing a world map, have also been conducted. Now, all children (and also adults) have tendency to draw their own part of the world as proportinally larger than it is. American kids however, made the largest distortion of their countries relative size, and they also made more errors regarding the geography of the rest of the world.

Here's a link to the TIMMS study: [url="http://brookings.nap.edu/books/0815711832/html/7.html#pagetop"]http://brookings.nap.edu/books/0815711832/html/7.html#pagetop[/url]
(If someone like references to the other studies, I'll get them as soon as I go to work next week, I have most of my books and articles there.)

There have been discussions about carrying out similar international comparisons in other subjects like history or geography, but this is much more problematic since it's much more difficult to compare non-absolute test scores. How do we compare knowledge about Chinese history to knowledge about North African history? AFAIK, no such studies have been carried out.

Now to my point: When I read these studies, my first reaction was "What the @#$% is this?" The US is the world's leading country is science. It's also the richest and most powerful country in the world. How can the results from these studies be explained? Comments please?

Now, let's analyse the image of the "ignorant Americans". What factors make people view Amercians as ignorant? I'm sure language is one part - American and Brits often speak only their native language, whereas it's common in Western Europe and East Asia that people speak 3 languages. It is also said that the average American only have an active vocabulary of about 1000 words, whereas the average Brit has 2000 words and the average Swede uses 4000 words. I don't know if this is still true, I think those data are some years old. Contrary to the Brits however, who are often viewed as "cultivated" and "intellectual", Americans are viewed as lacking both historical and cultural knowledge about other parts of the world than their own. Do you think this is true? If so, why? If not, how has this image formed?

@all Americans: Please don't take this post as offensive - I have an honest interest in discussing this topic and increasing my understanding of this image of Americans.

Some comments from the other thread, that I wanted to transfer here, I hope you excuse me:

posted by fable:
<STRONG> However, there is good reason to believe that Americans do not as a group have the same knowledge of history, literature, and cultural lore as Western Europeans from a handful of countries. It's a matter of mindsets, I think, and Americans simply no longer place much value on these things.

</STRONG>

If this is so, why do think Americans don't value this kind of things? The white man's history in the US is of course much younger than the European or Asian history, but there are other young, colonised countries like New Zeeland, where people certainluy value history and tradition as much as we do in Europe.

If Americans indeed has less interest and more shallow knowledge about general history, what other areas of knowledge are valued instead?

posted by fable:
<STRONG>I do think that the US has largely evolved into a consumerist nation. It consumes more natural and processed resources by far than any other nation on earth. Its people spend more than twice the time watching television (4 hours/night, by a survey done approximately 6 years ago) as the British, who were the largest watchers of television in Europe. Its film industry is the largest in the world, as is its record and gaming industries.

</STRONG>

Actually, India is the world's largest producer of films in terms of numbers, but I suspect the US film industry makes more money

That the US consumes far more resources that any other country in the world, is a statistical fact. On average, a US citized consumed double the amount of electricity that the average Swede, something I find astonishing (These figures are some 4-5 years old, mind you). Also, according to studies I saw last year, your figures should still be valid.

However, do you think consuming and TV watching are affecting the general level of knowledge? What about Japan? Does anyone have any statistics? Consuming and TV time is rather high in Japan too, at least amoung younger people. Still, the young people in Japasn are among the top scoring students in international tests.

posted by VoodooDali:
<STRONG>U.S. students perform relatively well in reading compared with their international counterparts. Out of 27 countries in fourth-grade and 31 countries in ninth-grade, only Finland's achievement was significantly higher than that of the U.S.

AND--to show what complicates the issue:
The United States has close to 20 percent of the adult population at both the high and low ends of the literacy scale. In contrast, European countries tend to have an adult population with skills concentrated in the middle literacy levels.

</STRONG>

This is very interesting. Why do you think the US students show much better reading skills than maths and science skills? And how come the variability is so large? Sure the US consists of many different language groups - but so does Holland or the UK. Also, the US is a class segregated society, but so are many other contries.

@everyone: I hope you all understand that the statistics I post and the generalisation I make are only valid at group level - no conclusion can be drawn regarding individuals.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

Interesting topic, CE.

If I can give some insight re: certain things ...

Most families from (East) Asian countries give premium to education, and when I mean education I mean having their children to finish at least a bachelor's degree.

The kids themselves look forward to such an education. It is given that finishing high school is not enough. In my country, college graduates are having a hard time getting a decent job, much less high school graduates.

I'm not real sure about this, but I had the perception that for a number of Americans, college education is just an option for them since getting a highschool diploma would get them by to live at least a simple life. I may be wrong about this though.

Flame me you guys if you want.
But this is what i honestly think.

Americans really don't care what happens in the world at large.
I have no idea why.
It might be because the US is so big and so complex that there are things on the domestic front that are more important than the international scenerio.
I personally don't see how that is possible.
If there is a war in kosovo or Burundi who would not want to know what is happening?

Also i would say they are ignorant on world political issues, not ignorant on everything.
Most of the top US colleges have US students but yes international students are taking over very rapidly.

Also with math, in he subcontinent you can't use a calculator until college.
Before i started in the american system abroad i knew how to do sin cosine etc without a calculator.
But now i am dependent on a calcultor to do simple trig.

In the chinese culture math is a common course to study, from what i have seen.
It has been practiced for centuries and children see it as a course that if one excells at, he or she is the best student in the class.

Back to the topic, the expression commonly used after sept 11 was forttress USA.
That i think adds to the US image of ignorance.
Since they are in the US, they don't meet different cultures or people, they don't have the global exposure.
But from why i have seen and believe neither do they care about the rest of the world.
They are perfectly happy in their own world.
A simple ideal if only that were truly possible.

Originally posted by Maharlika:
<STRONG>Most families from (East) Asian countries give premium to education, and when I mean education I mean having their children to finish at least a bachelor's degree.

</STRONG>

According to the recent research in UK, British children from Indian background scores highest, followed by the Far East (China, Korea, Japan). The research subjects were all school children born and brought up in UK, so it is not necessarily which country they are living and taught. It could be the immense pressure the Asian children are under from their family, for example.

I don't know about the USA. I've never been there nor did research on the country, so I can't say.

Posred by Fas -

Americans really don't care what happens in the world at large.
I have no idea why.
It might be because the US is so big and so complex that there are things on the domestic front that are more important than the international scenerio.
I personally don't see how that is possible.
If there is a war in kosovo or Burundi who would not want to know what is happening?

<snip> But from why i have seen and believe neither do they care about the rest of the world.
They are perfectly happy in their own world.
A simple ideal if only that were truly possible.

This is a sweeping statement. You could fairly say that this also applies to the UK if this is the case...ask an average man in a pit village up north what is going on in the world and you will get a similar generalisation. If it is not happening on his front doorstep - he shows less interest...

I will get back to this thread when I have a little more time for thought - are we questioning why the US have this unfortunate label - or are we providing research material that backs up actual facts?

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]

I see a lot of people have grievances with US. There a lot of things I am not impressed with but a lot of things I am. All to often people tend to focus on the negatives.

Intelligence is 2/3 personality and 1/3 intellect according to Yoga books I have.

In my industry computers Americans have created this and it has been there drive to make it work for everyone.

Amercia has been excellent in Public Relations with Media, films, pop music, entrenprenial skills ect .. (other countries need to look harder at themselves at this including mine)

The rest of the world is playing catch-up to an extent. They are direct about making money which has helped them a lot. Being positive is nearly an 'amercian word'.

I think Amercia has a lot of problems but a lot of good points which I believe most other countries are 'Jealous' of .

I dont regard America as a clear leader. Tring telling this to the Britain.

Posted by at99 -

I dont regard America as a clear leader. Tring telling this to the Britain.

Hmmm...I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying here...is your opinion that the British would debate the US being a 'clear leader', or that the British consider the US a 'clear leader' - and in what context?

And on the subject of Americans being labelled ignorant:

Posted by CE -

Now, let's analyse the image of the "ignorant Americans". What factors make people view Amercians as ignorant? I'm sure language is one part - American and Brits often speak only their native language, whereas it's common in Western Europe and East Asia that people speak 3 languages. It is also said that the average American only have an active vocabulary of about 1000 words, whereas the average Brit has 2000 words and the average Swede uses 4000 words. I don't know if this is still true, I think those data are some years old. Contrary to the Brits however, who are often viewed as "cultivated" and "intellectual",

Regarding the languages spoken - I agree, but that also makes us Brits equally ignorant. As for being cultivated and intellectual, that is unfortunately another misconception We cover the same broad band of definitions as any other nation...

Are we talking historical evidence here or general current perceptions of a nation?

I recently joined a website that brings together old schoolfriends - from the little pit village where I grew up - I was amazed to notice there were three types of people.

The first type were born and bred in the village and continue to live there - as I mentioned before the comfort of their front doorstep...

The second type were the ones who joined the military and travelled with the forces but still go 'home' to the village.

The third type were the people that generally went on to further education and moved completely out of the county - invariably south...

I travelled a lot as a child, but trust me there are very little differences in the attitudes and way of life between one Yorkshire pit village and another...a friend's colleague from Sunderland in the north east confirmed a similar trend there...and I would hazard that very few of these types of people would fall into the stereotypically British concept...

Now going back to the definitions, could it be that the Americans are more prone than the stiff upper lipped Brits to express themselves, bones and all, whilst the Brits adhere to the old adage 'it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt'?

What I believe it comes down to is media. I am not a massive film watcher, but the British films that have been popular with the Americans I guess have invariably been the type that represent the Brits in their 'cultivated' and 'very British' way. The US is a massive and very important market - we sell them what they want to buy...

Hugh Grant. Hmph He is NOT typically British...

Just some opinions...

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]

Originally posted by Maharlika:
<STRONG>Interesting topic, CE.

If I can give some insight re: certain things ...

Most families from (East) Asian countries give premium to education, and when I mean education I mean having their children to finish at least a bachelor's degree.

The kids themselves look forward to such an education. It is given that finishing high school is not enough. In my country, college graduates are having a hard time getting a decent job, much less high school graduates.

I'm not real sure about this, but I had the perception that for a number of Americans, college education is just an option for them since getting a highschool diploma would get them by to live at least a simple life. I may be wrong about this though.</STRONG>

I have spent time living in Asia, and I would concur with these statements. I would like to add, however, that in Japan, for example, achieving top grades is so highly regarded that students spend nearly all their time studying. After school, they attend cram school, and then when this is over they study until late into the night, often getting little more than four or five hours sleep. Further, it is not uncommon for students who have "failed" or feel that they are going to "fail" to commit suicide.

I do agree that in North America generally, there is not a high enough premium placed on education. This is especially true in many high schools. I have marked the work of first year university students and led tutorial discussions with them. Sadly, most are incapable of critical thought, and even fewer can successfully write a gramatically and logically coherant paragraph.

Clearly, we need to find a balance between these two extremes.

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: dragon wench ]

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>...<snip>...@all Americans: Please don't take this post as offensive - I have an honest interest in discussing this topic and increasing my understanding of this image of Americans.</STRONG>

@ C Elegens; I am not certain whether I take offense or not, but I would merely ask this: would you not have been considered to be posting a racist/bigotted thread subject if you had asked us to discuss those "ignorant Africans," or "ignorant Mexicans," or "ignorant Russians" - ? I genuinely question the appropriateness of this thread.

In answer to your dilemna (i.e. that the US is the richest and most powerful nation and yet scores low in testing) I would point out that the US is the most free nation on Earth (though it is moving AWAY from that position as the years go on). This freedom is particularly evident in business, where anyone can pursue their ambitions, and the results can only be positive for people in general. Do you remember that long, long post that Weasel threw into a discussion about Afghanistan? Do you remember how it pointed out all of the minority CEOs in the US? THAT is the key to the success of the United States: we respect and reward ability. Whatever gauge people are using to determine (or assume) that Americans are "ignorant" may be missing the point of America: we want to be happy, and prosperous, and free. That is what America is all about - that is why we came to this continent. Fas questions why we should wish to remain ingorant of world events like Kosovo or Burundi - I might just as easily question why I should care about Kosovo - ? Don't get me wrong: I myself am very interested in world politics, and keep pretty up-to-date. But if my neighbor would rather tend his garden in his spare time does that make him "ignorant?" What is Kosovo to him? It has NO impact on his life. Yes, people are suffering - well, people are suffering all over - even here in the US - does that put some kind of obligation on me or my neighbor?

Sorry, that was a long paragraph! I guess I just don't understand this entire concept of testing one nation's math scores against anothers - especially when one of the nations is the US where everybody is an immigrant, and we are perhaps the most complicated and diverse nation on the face of the planet.

Posted by CE- Geography tests where school kids get the task of drawing a world map, have also been conducted. Now, all children (and also adults) have tendency to draw their own part of the world as proportinally larger than it is. American kids however, made the largest distortion of their countries relative size, and they also made more errors regarding the geography of the rest of the world.

Most Americans i know suck at geography. When we Geo Bees in school an East Isian or Indian kids come in the top 5. I came 1st once and 2nd once when i took it. The kid who beat me was Korean.

Posted by CE- Americans are viewed as lacking both historical and cultural knowledge about other parts of the world than their own. Do you think this is true? If so, why? If not, how has this image formed?

I believe it is true, because USA is a large country and also a great country.
Unlike Europe which is also rich people here travel within the country(it has alot to offer). In Europe you can move from country to country in a train!
Also Amercia lacks history. Sure the American Indians lived here, but we don't know too much about them since the Americans have killed them all.
People here aren't exposed to different countries because they don't need too. Everything can be found here.

Maharlika- Most families from (East) Asian countries give premium to education, and when I mean education I mean having their children to finish at least a bachelor's degree.

Like DW said in Japan students spend the whole day doing homework and studying. They also spend the whole night. There was a Japanese student in my school. He went back to Japan and had to take an admissions test to get into a school. He spent whole days and nights cramming.

In Pakistan and India we're not so hard working. We really don't spend too much time studying.

Like Fas said-The reason we may score better is because we get taught world history, world geography, and don't get to use a calculator.
Thats why Americans score pretty well in reading, because in the sub continent we get taught in the same way.

Americans really don't care what happens in the world at large.
I have no idea why.
It might be because the US is so big and so complex that there are things on the domestic front that are more important than the international scenerio.
I personally don't see how that is possible.
If there is a war in kosovo or Burundi who would not want to know what is happening?

True, they don't care but then why should they. They have a wonderful country. (I'm not being sarcastic)[yes i don't like the US for reasons but its still a great country]

According to the recent research in UK, British children from Indian background scores highest, followed by the Far East (China, Korea, Japan). The research subjects were all school children born and brought up in UK, so it is not necessarily which country they are living and taught. It could be the immense pressure the Asian children are under from their family, for example.

I don't want to appear bias, but its true that the Asian and Jewish students in my school score far better than the Americans. Then they(Asians) are followed by European students and other foreign students.

Well my family doesn't put immense pressure on me, but they're a bit more pressarizing than American parents. They would never accept a 'C' on my report card. I know students who get 'C's but their parents don't make too big of a deal over it.

Larzarus- @ C Elegens; I am not certain whether I take offense or not, but I would merely ask this: would you not have been considered to be posting a racist/bigotted thread subject if you had asked us to discuss those "ignorant Africans," or "ignorant Mexicans," or "ignorant Russians" - ? I genuinely question the appropriateness of this thread.

WEll the reason people tend to be critical of USA more is because, it is the wealthiest most powerful country in the world. We wouldn't ask these questions about Sudan(for example) because we know its a poverty and drought stricken country. We know they don't get good education or even food there.
America is the only superpower in the world these days. One would think their children would be a bit more knowledgeable on the rest of the world.

BTW- just want to add, that the top students in my school are either Jewish or Asian and several Americans.
I know of only 2 Jewish students not in the honor classes.

I believe that the ignorance of Americans stems from our early philosophies and practices in dealing in foriegn affairs. Washington set up a position of neutrality in the early 1790s during the French revoluton to protect the US from European political machinations(sp?). This philosophy lead us into conflict with France and Britain so we withdrew nearly completely from the worlds political arena which caused us to develope our ignorance as a people.

Also with an ingrained sense of xenophobia we recieved from Europe we refused to see the other nations of the world as a general people, but our government has always had a "brain drain" policy to the rest of the world. We give them the best (disputably) colleges and unvisersities in the world as long as they stay here. This whole philosophy started with Samuel Slater and Rhode Island's textile mills.
(This is my longest post ever, I think)

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Word ]

I meant from before that I think britain can rightly see itself as more of a world leader than USA. In moral,intellectual and social respects.

Also I think that a strong economic country like USA can be seen as arrogant because it has so much more going for it than most other parts of the world.

Would the world be a a stronger place if a china was the strongest or russia or South America, or Mid-eastern countries. I think it would be worse. The USA is not the ideal but look at the alternatives.

These other countries (mainly mid-east ) are getting a lot of negative press here in Ausralia (and world wide). This only mankes USA stronger when we do have a good look at the rest of the worlds Goverments

Originally posted by Fas:
<STRONG>Americans really don't care what happens in the world at large.
I have no idea why.
It might be because the US is so big and so complex that there are things on the domestic front that are more important than the international scenerio.
I personally don't see how that is possible.
If there is a war in kosovo or Burundi who would not want to know what is happening?

You've got a point here, but it needs sharpening.(Keep in mind I've not read the rest of the article, so if this stuff has been said already, you can just ignore me. ) Generally, Americans do want to know what's going on in the world, such as a war in kosovo or whatever. This is evident by the fact that a lot of this stuff is on the news a lot. Americans generally focus on what's going on 'locally' more than foreign affairs, but they do want to hear about the stuff. There are those of us who don't want to hear about foreign affairs when it involves wars and such. I'm one of those people, which is why I don't watch the news.

Originally posted by Fas:
[QB]Also i would say they are ignorant on world political issues, not ignorant on everything.
Most of the top US colleges have US students but yes international students are taking over very rapidly.</STRONG>

*points to what she just said*

Originally posted by Fas:
<STRONG>Also with math, in he subcontinent you can't use a calculator until college.
Before i started in the american system abroad i knew how to do sin cosine etc without a calculator.
But now i am dependent on a calcultor to do simple trig.</STRONG>

I hate trig, but I know what you're getting at here. Go into McDonalds or any other store with high school and/or college students working in it. They use computers to give you change. Very few of them would be able to give you change correctly without help of the computer. This is not necessarily a lack of mathematical skills. It is a lack of learning how to correctly give change. My mum made sure that I know how to give change correctly. When I had a job, I used the computer, but could give change the "old fashioned way" if necessary. Is it wrong to use the computer instead of doing it the old fashioned way? No. Relying on the computer and not learning the old fashioned way ain't a very good idea, though.

Originally posted by Fas:
<STRONG>In the chinese culture math is a common course to study, from what i have seen.
It has been practiced for centuries and children see it as a course that if one excells at, he or she is the best student in the class.</STRONG>

I loved math, until I got to high school...

Originally posted by Fas:
<STRONG>Back to the topic, the expression commonly used after sept 11 was forttress USA.
That i think adds to the US image of ignorance.
Since they are in the US, they don't meet different cultures or people, they don't have the global exposure.
But from why i have seen and believe neither do they care about the rest of the world.
They are perfectly happy in their own world.
A simple ideal if only that were truly possible.</STRONG>

Sadly, this is true about a lot of Americans. I know a lady who pretends to be cultured but is very uncultured. I commented on how the price of gas in the US had gotten so high that it was closer than usual to the price of gas in Canada. She replied, "Who cares what the price is in Canada?" Now, living in Arizona with no plans to even visit Canada, there is some logic to what she said. But knowing the comparison of price here and there makes it easier to know if gas is way too high or not.

As far as those test statistics are concerned, a lot of it has to do with culture and location.

The tests have to be standardized to deal with the different methods of teaching in each country, but must still retain certain aspects of the country for comprehension purposes.

Then there are things such as country size. A larger country is going to have more diversity than a smaller country, specifically in education. Arizonans, in general, are not as good at reading as Texans are. I don't know sizes of other countries, but if we take, for example....bah...my brain is fried at the moment, I can't think of a country. If you take a country the size of Texas and compare it to the United States, you're most likely gonna see lest educational diversity. This could be good or bad. Depends on a lot of factors. I'm going to shut up now before I confuse myself anymore.

Originally posted by at99:
<STRONG>
Would the world be a a stronger place if a china was the strongest or russia or South America, or Mid-eastern countries. I think it would be worse. The USA is not the ideal but look at the alternatives.
</STRONG>

Well how would you what it would be like?
The Ottomans ruled over Christians and Jews and they didn't do a thing to them, except one incident.
Coming from a racist person like you I don't think we should bother to listen to you.
Screw personal attacks, You attacked my culture, so screw whatever apology you want.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>This is not necessarily a lack of mathematical skills. It is a lack of learning how to correctly give change.</STRONG>

Oh yeah. Teach all the children how to give change. They'll be set for a career in the retail chain of their choice Actually, if you learn basic mental arithmetic, then you'll be perfectly capable of giving change correctly. I know which one I think ought to be taught.

No offence to CE, but I think this kind of thread is really not necessary. Having seen the SYM past two months, there is a danger of stereotyping and even offence to each other's culture/religion etc.

For example:

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
<STRONG>Like DW said in Japan students spend the whole day doing homework and studying. They also spend the whole night. </STRONG>

I was born and brought up in Tokyo, but I've never spent a whole night studying. In fact, I spent whole my school days playing in my brass band after school, so did my band mates. It is true there are many children who spend hours after school, but I don't say "all" or even "most of".

As I said, I've never been to the US, therefore I don't comment on Americans. I don't think anyone (not only Thorin, but everyone else) should not comment on things like this on the basis on the one person or things "what I heard before".

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Minerva ]

I person can't be used to base such things. Sorry about that...

I think I'm just going to stop posting in these serious threads. The only reason i even post is too defend my culture against racist people like at99.
Anyway the way i getted pissed at the racist i'll probably get banned...

(again)

Originally posted by Georgi:
<STRONG>Oh yeah. Teach all the children how to give change. They'll be set for a career in the retail chain of their choice Actually, if you learn basic mental arithmetic, then you'll be perfectly capable of giving change correctly. I know which one I think ought to be taught. </STRONG>

lol, I think I forgot to specify what my point was. What I meant to be saying was that Americans generally depend too much on technology. It's not the "basic mental arithmetic" I'm talking about with change giving.

Way it is done nowadays: Tell computer how much cash was given. Computers tells you how much change is due. Lets say it is $9.15, for example. You then count out nine dollars and fifteen cents.

Way it used to be done(way it really should be done): Item cost a total of $10.85 and you're given a $20 bill. Change due is $9.15. You count it like this. *grabs a nickle* $10.90 *grabs a dime* $11.00 *grabs 4 $1 bills* $15 *grabs a five* $20 *counts the money in the same way as she hands it to the customer*

The other way is faster, but relies on computer. If the computer isn't working right or they input the price wrong(a possibility at some smaller businesses), you need to be able to do it the other way.

This is just a basic example of how Americans rely too much on technology. I don't know if other countries have this problem or not.