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Hello,

I'd like to tell you about my last party, I'am going to play on SoA and ToB. It will be a overpower party that I'd like play on a difficult MOD. Do you have any suggestions what MOD or patches / patchcombinations I shall get??

Here we go
Inquisitor: Will get Carsomyr for massive anti Magic!
Skald: For imba Bard-Song, Spell casting and Traps (later)
Kensai dualled to Mage (lv12): Will get Celestial, Vencas, etc...
Kensai dualled to Thief (lv.9): Will get Long Sowrds, Daggers,...Backstab is fun!
Ranger / Cleric: Multiclass half-elf (i like the druid spells)
Swashbuckler dualled to Fighter (lv.10): Will get Swords first, later Axes

Well, I'am not shure about the both last Characters. I want to have a Thief from the Beginning for pick pocket, unlock doors etc and against deadly traps. Therefor I added the Swash, later he can become a good fighter. I didnt chose the Berserk Dualled to Cleric or Ranger dualled to Cleric, because i like the druid spells. What would YOU do? The skald is a MUST, the rest can be changed or removed. Please post your suggestions. Will i have problems with imprisonment later because I didnt got berserk-RAGE?

Thank you for incoming answers!

Well, first off I would recommend leaving the Swashbuckler as it is. A pure Swashbuckler is more powerful than a fighter anyways, so by dual-classing you would be gimping yourself in addition to missing out on high level uber traps and Use Any Item.

Also, a Blade may be more useful than a Skald because of the High Level Ability called Improved Bard Song that replaces the bard's old song and makes it obsolete. So while the Skald song may be useful in the early stages of the game, it is inferior to a simple HLA as soon as ToB rolls around. A Blade would be a much tougher character, and will have virtually no downsides the moment HLA's become available.

As for mods, pick up Ascension. It makes each of the boss fights in ToB much harder(other than the first one, more on that later), and it restores the final boss of Watcher's Keep to it's original difficulty (before it was nerfed pre-release). Also, I have a mod installed that increases the difficulty of the first ToB boss fight to match the Ascension difficulty, but I can't seem to remember what it is called.

For the Kensai/Mage, you should dual him either at 9 or 13, as the levels in between grant no bonus.

I agree with Berethor on getting a Blade instead of a Skald. This guy will be your main fighter and tank for most of the game.

Assassin is better than this Kensai/Thief combination for backstabs. Use Staff of the Ram +6 to increase damage and avoid dual wielding.

I wouldn't use Carsomyr as my primary weapon. Instead, have the Inquisitor dual wied Flail of Ages and the Defender of Easthaven. It's a fairly useless weapon for the Inquisitor in my opinion, as the inherent dispel ability is so much better.

The Swashbuckler will be your late game fighter and tank, along with the Inquisitor. Most of your DPS will come from this character and the Blade. DO NOT DUAL CLASS.

For difficult mods, try Improved Anvil. It adds new classes, items, encounters and greatly enchances the strength of your enemies, not to mention fixes some exploits and changes the experience table.

Ok tells see,...

-I get a Blade insted of the Skald, because with the improved bard Song I will have an even better Song than the Skald's. I will have an even better tank and Damage dealer with HLA.
-The Kenasi/Mage will be dualled at level 9, so i wont lose any exp and levels.
-The Kenasi/Thief will be dualled at lv 13, so he get more bonuses from the kensai. I didnt chose the class because of backstab, kensai will even wear armors and any items he likes later on. The backstab is one MORE nice effect of dual classing the Kensai to a Thief. What weapon/weapons for him????
-The Inqusitor will get dualled Fails/clubs and hammers instead of carsomyr.
I'am not shure about the Swash. Is he really stronger than a fighter latter on, cant even believe... if this is true, I won't duall class him, are the any Threads about swashbuckler discussions?
-Last but not least: Is the Ranger/Cleric multiclass fine? Not better Ranger/cleric duall classed at lv 9 or so? Will a dualled Ranger get the hight druid spells later on, although the Ranger didn't got lv 5 spells or higher before duall classing him?
-Can you send me a link to those mods?

i like dualled rangers. you get better turn undead in SoA and access to the spells earlier. getting access to more holy powers earlier is better imo. plus you get more HP, earlier weapon profs etc.

appo13 wrote:Hello,
I didnt chose the Berserk Dualled to Cleric or Ranger dualled to Cleric, because i like the druid spells.

Ranger dualled over to Cleric WILL get all druid AND cleric spells, just like the R/C multiclass. In fact you will get more slots for memorization (or rather, at a quicker rate) than you would with the multi-class.

The multi-class continues to get the ranger levels, which means you get the thac0 of a warrior class, and get warrior HLAs later on.

It's a tradeoff between more/quicker gain of slots for spell memorization (dual class R/C), or better fighting skills (multi-class R/C).

appo13 wrote: I'am not shure about the Swash. Is he really stronger than a fighter latter on, cant even believe... if this is true, I won't duall class him, are the any Threads about swashbuckler discussions?

A Swashbuckler's thac0/damage and armor class increase every few levels, while a Fighter's does not. Swash's do crazy damage and can tank extremely well at the end of the game, and they get Use Any Item and high level traps to boot.

I don't know how dual-classing to a fighter works exactly...I'm not sure if you'll be able to get weapon Grandmastery. Still, even if you could, you would still be a weaker fighter than a Swashbuckler and you wouldn't have the cool HLA's that rogue characters get.

-Last but not least: Is the Ranger/Cleric multiclass fine? Not better Ranger/cleric duall classed at lv 9 or so? Will a dualled Ranger get the hight druid spells later on, although the Ranger didn't got lv 5 spells or higher before duall classing him?

Since you seem to have a lot of physical damage potential in that group, it may be wise to dual-class at level 12 instead of multi-classing. At the end of the game you would definitely have more spell slots than the multi-class, so he makes a much better caster in your extremely melee oriented group.

-Can you send me a link to those mods?

They're not hard to find. I believe that there is a link to the download page for Ascension on this website, just click on 'Downloads' on the Baldur's Gate II page. Or Google search "ascension download baldur's gate 2".

Yes, both, the Swashbuckler and the Blade will be more powerful than the Inquisitor in terms of attacks per round, AC and flexibility, the Inquisitor however will have an amazing physical resistance of 85%, if used properly.

The multiclass is just as good. The way you have your party set up, it seems to me that at least two characters will have limited use (due to dual class) at around the same time, so I think that you should avoid having any more.

A Swashbuckler's thac0/damage and armor class increase every few levels, while a Fighter's does not.

Does that really equate to a fighter having ten attacks in a round, all of which are critical hits though(Greater WW + Critical Hit, and yes they do stack)?

Yes a Swashbuckler can use the Bracers of Blinding Strike or whatever they're called, or invoke the Ring of Gaxx, but chaining GWWs and CHs (the fighter can have multiples of them) is pretty devestating. I don't know, I've never take a Swashbuckler that far, so I'm not arguing, just giving 'voice' to my doubts.

Plus one damage for every five levels amounts to a max of +8, the plus thaco is irrelevant in comparison to a fighter, who at high levels only misses on a critical. I'm just puzzled at what makes the swashbuckler so much better than a fighter, cheesy traps apart.

Well, don't forget that a properly equiped Swashbuckler will have a constant AC of -24, unbuffed. While the class has a good enough THAC0 to hit most things, its' best feature is the ability to use any item while at the same time having that to hit and damage bonus.

So yes, the class by itself is very strong, but don't forget to add in potions and scrolls (Improved Haste, Tensor's Transformation, Shapechange and Spell Immunity, to name a few) as well as weapons otherwise unusable, such as the Staff of the Magi or Wand of Cloudkill. Also, note that Swashbuckler does indeed get Whirlwind.

I honestly do not think that Critical Hit is useful for anything but delivering the Harm spell. A normal fighter can hit anything either way while the bonus damage is blocked as near everyone wears a helmet.

Swashbuckler does indeed get Whirlwind.

Only if you have the Rogue rebalancing mod installed surely.

I honestly do not think that Critical Hit is useful for anything but delivering the Harm spell. A normal fighter can hit anything either way while the bonus damage is blocked as near everyone wears a helmet.

That's what I though too, it is without the HLA, but it 'seems' to take effect even with helmets when you use the HLA. At least I've noticed guys that I wasn't expecting to go down do so in one round when using CH. Maybe it's just perception on my part.

Ok guys! That discussion move to a point i really like. I'am now sure that swashbuckler is a good class to choose. Secondly i will chose the multiclass Ranger/cleric, becasue as you said, 2 character will be nearly useless at the same time. Btw the difference between multi and duall classing ranger/cleric doesn't seem quite big.
You are right about my physical Damage output and that is a point I'am arguing with, too. Lets see how the party is build up?

Inquisitor
Kensai/Mage (lv9)
Kensai/Thief (lv13)
Blade
Swachbuckler
Ranger/Cleric

I got 1 Mage from the beginning (Blade but only lv 3 spells, so the important ice storm is missing). Later i will get a second mage, when kensai reachs lv 9. Although i got the ranger/druid for some healing and maybe call lighting damage and insects. Now the question:

Would you change any character, swtich any one, for example remove the inquisitor and add a sorcerer for more magic output???? That way i will not have 6 Fighters in primary and only 3 casters in second priority, but 5 melee fighter and 1 primay sorcerer with 2 second priority casters.

I understand the initial need for a swashbuckler, disabling traps/locks until your K/T can do it. Personally I'd go for using the Tweak Pack and removing all locks and traps from the game and using the slot for occasional NPCs. Let's face it if you've played the game before all the traps and locks are, are cheap XP gains. Just depriving yourself of all that free and easy experience points makes the game a little more challenging.

Galrean, the Swashbuckler has access to the whirlwind HLA within the unmodded game.

I'm sure that any enemy that goes down with Critical Strike can go down just as fast without it, unless there's a specific enemy you were talking about?

Ice Storm is hardly an essential spell, but the Blade should use spells on himself for enhancement purposes, same with the Kensai/Mage. Both are more combat oriented than the average spell flinger.

The way your party stands now, I'm seeing a bit too much arcane power without dedication. The way my playstyle goes, the Blade, Kensai/Mage and Ranger/Cleric I fighters and tanks first and spellcasters second.

If I were to get rid of a character, it would probably be your Kensai/Thief, who is completely unnecessary with the Swashbuckler present. As for characters to replace him, I think that an Archer is a great candidate.

Ok! You are so right that the blade, the Kensai/Mage and the D/C will be tanks and fighters in the first way and will buff themselves with mass magic power. In fact I only took the Blade for my team, because I want him to be a suppotive caster and later sing the Great Bardsong in all battles, I dont see him as a tank or even a fighter. I think the Great Bard Song is quite overpowered and will be an IMBA support. Do I overrate its power?

You say I shall remove the K/T and get a Archer but I miss some arcane power of a Sorcerer for example. Why not get a Sorcerer instead of the K/T? Damage output will be good. I could even replace the Blade for the Archer if you think that a blade is unnevessary if I only want him to use as the Bard Song singer.

Crenshinibon wrote:Galrean, the Swashbuckler has access to the whirlwind HLA within the unmodded game.

Very interesting.

I've actually just started a BG1 game inspired by this thread actually, and as I mentioned before I've never progressed a Swashbuckler, always been put off by the minimal unboosted attacks per round. This time I'm taking one all the way through, should be interesting.

Full MP party based on a party me and some friends had in a 1st edition PnP campaign:

Berserker (was a straight fighter in the PnP game)
Fighter/Druid
Kensai (will DC to mage, was a straight fighter)
Swashbuckler (replaces a Ranger in the original)
Sorceress (we actually created our own class we called a Sorcerer, in fact very similar to the one in BG)
Ranger (will DC to Cleric)

Already I'm strting to see the advantage of a Swashbuckler, base THACO is already only one behind the fighters at level seven (Fighters level 6).

Playing on the hardest setting for the first time too, but not impressed. Fights aren't noticeably that much more difficult, and lots more monsters, so XP going up a lot faster. Seems to be self defeating to me. May try Ascension when I get to BG2.

I think you overrate it's power by a lot. I usually keep it on until the battle starts, where the effect lasts for some round.

ALL of your characters are heavily combat oriented and can be considered tanks, so most will have similiar needs, so you will have to divide the equipment you get, meaning that a lot of your characters will have secondary equipment. I think that the Blade can stay and be a front line fighter with equipment choices differing from other characters. Throughout the entire game, this character is self sufficient and doesn't really need that much equipment to hold his/her own.

You can get a sorcerer if you want, but who will use the mage items? The sorcerer or the Kensai/Mage?

The classes and their supposed roles overlap, which in my opinion makes some characters obsolete.

Man your arguments are HARD but true!!
My suggestion:
I read some threads about the "Archer Kit" whith seems to be an ambush killer from distance.
I will leave the R/C and the Inqusitor as they are. Both will get the heaviest armors like platemails and blunt weapons dual wielded. So I split all heavy armors and blunt weapons to them. Thats seems ok.
The Swashbuckler is a need because of the thief abilities I cant spare of.
Now I will get the Kensai/Mage but I'am not shure weahter a Berserk/Mage would be better. He will use mainly fighters items and bracers of AC 3 so that the robe of venca can go to the planed sorcerer. The kensai will get katanas, the sorcerer staffs. The Kensai doenst really need venca, because he will be going to cast most spells before the battle starts like stoneskin, transmutation, simulacrum, mirror image, etc...
WOW! The party I started with seems quite changing^^ But thats why I discuss it. I dont think the equipment dividing wont be a problem. All use different weapons and armors. 2 guys heavy armor and blunt, 2 guys medium armor and bow / swords and 2 guys robes and katanas/staffs.

Swap out the Kensai/Thief for something like an Archer.

Also, I might recommend switching that Kensai/Mage for a Sorceror based on the amount of melee oriented tanks you already have in that group. You would get far more arcane power and your damage output would be very similar.

Ok! I now have my party:

Inqusitor
Ranger / Cleric (DC lv 7?)
Kensai / Mage (DC lv 9 or 13)
Swashbuckler
Archer (elf)
Sorcerer

Now they became well balanced. I got 4 fighter classes with all different weapons, a Sorcerer for magic power and an archer for killing. Tomorrow at this time I will have already created my new party for the "tacitcs" BG2+ToB run. This is the last chance for any more suggestions. I'am still not shure on what level I will DC the characters and I'am not shure weather I better get a Fighter/Thief Halfling instead of the Swash, hmmmm....