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[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm"]US man 'killed child by praying'[/url]

A US jury has found a man guilty of killing his sick 11-year-old daughter by praying for her recovery rather than seeking medical care.
The man, Dale Neumann, told a court in the state of Wisconsin he believed God could heal his daughter.
She died of a treatable disease - undiagnosed diabetes - at home in rural Wisconsin in March last year, as people surrounded her and prayed.
Neumann's wife, Leilani Neumann, was convicted earlier this year.
The couple, who were both convicted of second-degree reckless homicide, face up to 25 years in prison when they are sentenced in October.
A lawyer representing Dale Neumann said he would appeal.
'Faith healing'
During the trial, medical experts told the court that Neumann's daughter could have survived if she had received treatment, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing.
On Thursday Neumann, who is 47 and studied in the past to be a Pentecostal minister, said he thought God would heal his daughter.
"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," he said. "I am not believing what he said he would do."
He also said he thought his daughter had had flu or a fever, and that he had not realised how ill she was.
Neumann's lawyer said he had been convinced that his "faith healing" was working, and that he had committed no crime.
The prosecution argued that Neumann had minimised his daughter's illness and that he had allowed her to die as a selfish act of faith.
They said the girl should have been taken to hospital because she was unable to walk, talk, eat or drink.
Instead, an ambulance was only called once the girl had stopped breathing.




Wow... the mind boggles...

Well said Maharlika, and far more kindly than I would have been able to.

jklinders wrote:Well said Maharlika, and far more kindly than I would have been able to.

Yes indeed. Those were exactly my thoughts. Mah is our resident diplomat, I think

On the topic itself.. I'm still appalled. Even though I'm horrified by people who refuse blood transfusions to their kids, I can at least understand the thought process involved. Doesn't make me any less disgusted, but I grasp what's motivating them.
This however... the girl died due to sheer, utter ignorance. I realise I'm skating dangerously close to the nasty topic of eugenics here, but it are stories like this that make me believe the ability to reproduce should be directly linked to reasoning and intelligence.

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Poor kid. Its funny how people with the means don't seek a cure. I think it is safe to say you could put a thousand other, less fortunate people, in their shoes and they would go out on a limb to get their kid cured.

I'll bet an arm that if it was him who was dying, he'd be geting himself medical care in time. It's just a shame that someone else had to die for his foolishness.

Sain wrote:I'll bet an arm that if it was him who was dying, he'd be geting himself medical care in time. It's just a shame that someone else had to die for his foolishness.

Don't assume he's a hypocrite, just because he's a Pentacostal. That all too common an assumption to make in some circles--and I write this, as someone who intensely dislikes their bizarre form of Christianity. But neither you nor I can tell what this man is like. All we know is a few words on a piece of paper that refer to the death of his child. Might be a hypocrite; might not. Might be wracked in misery right now; might be angry; might not. Might wonder whether the child's faith was bad; or his own; or something else.

Don't devalue yourself by devaluing him without knowledge.

Perhaps he should have started smaller, like seeing if God would hold his watch or something, and then worked his way up to 'cure my dying daughter'?
Just a suggestion.

Its not like it says in the bible that Jesus cured people of their unknown ills?! A bit hard to pray for a cure when you don't know what the problem is! Death pretty much cures every ailment, so perhaps he got the only outcome his prayers could muster!

Ode to a Grasshopper wrote:Perhaps he should have started smaller, like seeing if God would hold his watch or something, and then worked his way up to 'cure my dying daughter'?
Just a suggestion.

Heh. HL Mencken once published a thesaurus with several anonymous foreign proverbs that were his means of sneaking his own wit in. He credited the Russians for one I've always liked, but figure could have been pure Mencken, as well: "Pray all you like, Ivan, but row for the shore." It sums matters up well. By all means, pray for divine intervention, but don't forget to pay due homage to physical reality and its laws.

Darth Gavinius wrote:A bit hard to pray for a cure when you don't know what the problem is!

People will return to faith when science fails to explain what is going on. I.e. When the end of the world comes upon us unexpectedly. Also, if the end of the world is brought about by nuclear warheads, a product of science, then I can very well envision the survivors dressing up in tattered clothes and glowing radioactive flowers, singing hippy songs and quoting the Bible.

Sort of reminds me of a story that a character in the show The West Wing told:

You remind me of the man that lived by the river. He heard a radio report that the river was going to rush up and flood the town, and that the all the residents should evacuate their homes. But the man said, "I'm religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me." The waters rose up. A guy in a rowboat came along and he shouted, "Hey, hey you, you in there. The town is flooding. Let me take you to safety." But the man shouted back, "I'm religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me." A helicopter was hovering overhead and a guy with a megaphone shouted, "Hey you, you down there. The town is flooding. Let me drop this ladder and I'll take you to safety." But the man shouted back that he was religious, that he prayed, that God loved him and that God will take him to safety. Well... the man drowned. And standing at the gates of St. Peter he demanded an audience with God. "Lord," he said, "I'm a religious man, I pray, I thought you loved me. Why did this happen?" God said, "I sent you a radio report, a helicopter and a guy in a rowboat. What the hell are you doing here?"

Sort of sums up my feelings on the matter.

When people act in an ostensibly moronic way because of faith, I'm always reminded of the fact that they believe their god to be omniscient. By knowing everything, he should know what a person will do. Therefore, praying for anything is logically pointless, as whether you do it or not, if there is a god he'll always have known about it, and if he intended to answer the prayers, will likely have done so beforehand. If he didn't intend to answer the prayers, he'll have had a reason for it, which again indicates prayer to be pointless. Would this not mean that no matter what happens in life, a devout person should always be thankful, assuming god is benevolent?

In any case, the argument that one should not put science before god (as seems to be the case here) is stupid, because, again, god is supposedly omniscient. He should always have known that man will create science, and by not stopping us from doing so, the assumption can be made that he wanted us to do so. If not, then he is either not benevolent, not omniscient, or not all-powerful, in which case he cannot, by definition, be god. At least not in the christian sense.

I hope this makes at least some sense, I am terribly tired

Loki[D.d.G] wrote:People will return to faith when science fails to explain what is going on.

Unfortunately, as this sad case shows, many people prefer their own personal beliefs rather than scientific facts also when scientific facts are well known and readily available. Diabetes is an easily managed disease in today's rich world.

I don't think the father should have a milder sentence because he himself was personally convinced that "faith healing" would work. Treatment was available, and the father intentionally withheld treatment from his daughter. Religious belief is no excuse to cause someones death.

C Elegans wrote:Unfortunately, as this sad case shows, many people prefer their own personal beliefs rather than scientific facts also when scientific facts are well known and readily available.

Mostly due to blind faith or sheer stubbornness to turn to something "new". But that wasn't exactly what I meant. I was referring to the atheists and semi-believers out there who worship science as a religion (take that with a pinch of salt).

Loki[D.d.G] wrote:Mostly due to blind faith or sheer stubbornness to turn to something "new". But that wasn't exactly what I meant. I was referring to the atheists and semi-believers out there who worship science as a religion (take that with a pinch of salt).

You can't worship science as a religion as science does not build on faith (yum - salt)

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Xandax wrote:You can't worship science as a religion as science does not build on faith

Science and religion are more closely linked than you'd think...

Loki[D.d.G] wrote:Mostly due to blind faith or sheer stubbornness to turn to something "new". But that wasn't exactly what I meant. I was referring to the atheists and semi-believers out there who worship science as a religion (take that with a pinch of salt).

That was the impression I got watching Dawkins' Root of All Evil...
As a practical matter, though, and as a good Pastafarian, Xan is right - the fundamental characteristics of religion and science are foo far apart for science to work as a religion (and vice-versa). What Claudius says is right but that's less science than personal bias, which isn't really scientific but pseudo-scientific at best...phrenology, anyone?