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I tell you, I must not be playing my casters properly. I mean, they have sick mana and do sick damage and buff heal like champions, but during boss fights they get fried by the area effect spells and multi-character targeting spells. My tanks and ranger barely take damage and they waste the enemy np. It's getting to the point where in the beginning of a major battle, or an mob-spam fight, that I just fire off the caster powers first then I let them stay dead because it takes too much effort to keep them alive. This is after invulnerability and my tank does have provoke up, but that means nothing against the area effect--i.g. dragon breath-- or the multi-targeted spells--dark mages.

Is this just the downfall of casters? or am I doing something wrong.

Mycerin wrote:Is this just the downfall of casters? or am I doing something wrong.

That's just the downfall of casters, although you can help them a little by multiclassing them and giving them points in dodge and survival.

SWC

Also 'Fortitude' and 'Thoughness' would be alternatvies to spend some skillpoints in.

Due to the huge damage mages normally make some few percentages of life steal would surley help too. If possible combine it with faster spells not to wait too long for the life return.

KillerGremal wrote:Also 'Fortitude' and 'Thoughness' would be alternatvies to spend some skillpoints in.

Due to the huge damage mages normally make some few percentages of life steal would surley help too. If possible combine it with faster spells not to wait too long for the life return.

Also, of you're relying on your spells for vampirism, make sure you use spells that hit instantly and miss rarely, IE: Grave Beam and Jolt.

This makes for fast-coming, reliably-stolen HP into their reserves for the fight. Otherwise, go for items that give lots of physical/magical resistance as well as health bonuses. Oh, and yes, Fortitude and Dodge are quite useful and do not need much in the way of deviation from your core class.

Mycerin wrote:-- or the multi-targeted spells--dark mages.

A note on this that many overlook. Slowing spells (Encase, Static Jolt) cause many enemy casters to "fumble" spells. This also works well on "powering up" effects, such as the Ganth's healing axe.

This is not foolproof and will not work 100% of the time, so some spells can still get through.

If you're planning to solo the mage, I highly recommend the Mythralhorn and running in Rampage mode. Just move your caster to where ever the Mythralhorn is NOT.

Casters require a lot of intelligence. Not only on the facet of the character, but also on the player. The lack of Health means you can take less hits, therefore you need to devise and react with tactics in advance, and on the spur of the moment.

Melee is pretty much a no brainer "Uhhh....I hit things.....a lot of times......and hard." :laugh:

~Jessy

If you have Broken World, Chant of Stone is probably your best chance for major armor and health boost. And Absorption is great for magic resist. Most important is Life Steal, as mentioned.

Oh and I know many people do, but I don't use curses with my mage, it draws all the aggro and makesthem die quicker (may be better with huge life steal). I actually make my dual-wielders cast drown to draw aggro to them instead.


Edit: I see in another thread that you do have BW expansion. Put points in that fist of stone skill (I think it's called chant of the dead? Don't have the game here to check) that adds armor and health based on your intelligence. I'll have to guess, but my lvl 94 mage has just over 700 intelligence and about 19 points in that skill, which gives me an extra (i'll have to guess here) 247 armor and 740 health or so. It's so useful that I really think it's unbalanced. My mages often have more armor than my melee characters.

Yeah, CoS works wonders. Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm almost done with Vet in DSII map, I'll redo magic user skills and tweak them a bit more I think when I play the BW map. Haha, this forum def expedited my mastery of this game!! TNX!

My First Post

Spellcasters will just get stomped on quite simply.

I'm playing the game with 3 half-giant fighters and a pet myrthrilhorn which shows my trust of magic lol.

Give the mages more attention

I find the game much more enjoyable when handling glass cannons, not just going up and whack however you want because you just can not die with fighters wearing godly armor or ridiculous % health steal items. As of now, I have 3 glass cannons in my Vet party. They plow through anything and everything(well except the Arena since the monsters at 7th level is 10 levels higher ) the way I wanted, brute force combined with finesse.

I don't see why combat mages should be regarded as too weak to be used. It is true that they attract the most attention due to them usually dealing the most damage and the nasty curses they cast. It is also true that they die in 1-2 hits (in Vet mode, Finala as a combat mage dies anytime I don't handle her ). Even so, their damage potential, curses and powers are just too good to discard.

Some people suggested wearing % health/mana steal items. That, I think, is not quite the good solution. Why? Getting hit means death, you just DO NOT have the time to get HP back. Don't rely on it, IMO, if possible. Only when you retreat to a safe place that you would be able to regain HP. It gets more noticable to see when you're getting into more difficult modes. Situation, if a Kurgan attacks your combat mage and you decide to stand the ground, hoping to steal HP back? I'm sure 10 out of 10, your mage would be eating dirt.

Sometimes I just have to watch my mage falling simply because 3 axes/cannon balls were flying towards her. Nothing you could do when that happens. Apart from that, if a melee mob is wanting to shed your mage's blood, have them provoked by powers/Mythrillhorn but bear in mind the radius of the powers, miss it and you have a dead character or just feel annoying. A nature mage could immobilise the lone monster with Vine or freeze/encase them with Ice spells provided you put some points into Freezing (really important if you wanna preserve your fragile boy/girl). If nothing mentioned above is at your disposal, last method is the classic "hit and run" with your party in Rampage mode so the rest could still wreck havoc on the pursuing monsters. Daring people could just slug it out: you attack, they come forward and prepare to swing/bite/slash, you retreat just out of range and repeat.

Much to talk about but I better cut it off here or it might just be an essay in a post.

Its much better with nature mages. Their main spell is not only probably the most damaging spell in the game, but also disables the target, preventing them to reach the mage. Unless the mage is targeted first, which shouldnt really happen often.

Dieing from spells means lack of resists and should be easily fixed, especially for nature mages who have absorb. Taar rarely dies in my games, and recently in the arena final round she was the only one alive most of the time, just unkillable, she is.

Combat mages are good.. until lvl34. After that they are just a sad joke.

Nature mages do not get targeted as often as combat mages because they don't use curses, they don't do much damage compared to others. Although I agree that Vine is the most damaging spell, look at how long it takes her to cast it . She could be killed before the vine comes out . Nature mages simply can't beat, for example, a Lightning mage when it comes to DPS. Combat mage still stands towering in the damage department until, your fighter or ranger gets uber equipment and has both Critical skills maxed out.

I dont know. The Vine is around two, three times as damaging as combat spells. It would take alot of faster cast and area damage to even this out. Certainly possible, but then the Vine is a non elemental spell, while combat spell are resisted by nearly everyone, greatly decreasing their real damage output. Most bad in boss fights, since they are both resistant, and there is noone to deal area damage to. Im unsure where the CM wants to get all his damage to keep up with nature mage. Curses help greatly, but then like you said, its an invitation to get killed, which not only means CM is dealing zero damage for several rounds, but also means NM is dealing zero damage too, busy with healing CM. Using curses results probably in even less damage over time, than w/o heh.

Sadly to say, Vine is single target. The only possible mass immobilizing spell I could think of is Encase with chances to freeze due to the Freezing skill (quite effective actually since casting's very fast).

Each Combat Mage build has rises and falls throughout the game which is fair enough. I have a Lightning Mage which made act 2 a breeze (especially in the Vai'Kesh forest) and I know full well that in the end I will struggle against the Qatall with their lightning immunity. Against a not-immune-to-lightning enemy though, the damage output is just crazy with Drown + Multi Spark (it helps my Ranger in using Charged Shot too).

I did mention that Cursing could gets you killed but it's all down to how well at micro-management you are. My method is to get the Mage in, cast the curses and make a run back to my group (in Waiting mode) and turn them into Rampage mode. The NM's Encase/Vine (against big/small group) would hopefully hold the mob in places for free shots. Usually around 3-5 casts of Multispark are possible until the CM has to move again (unless I run into Kurgan, which is annoying as hell with their durability and speed). My other 3 party members are Dual Wielder + Ranger + Mature Lap Dragon so it is always quick work (powers without hesitation ). It doesn't have to the CM dealing damage all the time, I switch between Decay Armor/Drown/Cripple depending on who I'm up against. Drown also turns NM into a good damage dealer (Frost Beam + a few points in Quickened Casting work best for me) since it increases both Lightning and Ice invulnerability (max %55 more, it's no laugh).

Oh i see it as an advantage actually. Talking about DPS its the same damage (100%damage@1target or 50%damage@2targets is equal), less aggro, boss killer, strategically taking out specific targets, huge hold time. I agree, it does not possess a reliable stopping power vs a horde of enemies. Doesnt need to, with other party members around. Its more like a sniper rifle compared to a shotgun. Different in use, still both deadly weapons.

Your way of playing sounds familiar, i recall doing similar things during the ride with Finala through veteran. Personally controlling the CM was the only way of keeping her alive. Needless to say that was not very impressive.


[q](max %55 more, it's no laugh).[/q]
It doesnt matter really w/o considering enemy's resistances, and raw spell damage. And after that the vine comes back ahead in terms of DPS.

Don't make the mistake I did of thinking the "Hold Ground" party order would hold them off

I was very frustrated by party moving in "Hold Ground" mode too. What you would need is the "Wait" command, which wasn't hotkeyed by default so you need to assign one for that .

roller1234 wrote: Your way of playing sounds familiar, i recall doing similar things during the ride with Finala through veteran. Personally controlling the CM was the only way of keeping her alive. Needless to say that was not very impressive.


[q](max %55 more, it's no laugh).[/q]
It doesnt matter really w/o considering enemy's resistances, and raw spell damage. And after that the vine comes back ahead in terms of DPS.

Yes, CM running around could look unimpressive. But would you rather do that or constantly bring her back to life ? Though she maybe dealing 0 damage when an enemy with immunity appears but could still cast those awesome Curses. They together with Chants helped me win impossible battles. E.g. Steal magic + (Greater) Chant of Magic Awareness = harmless enemy spellcasters, even bosses. Without that, I could never beat Arinth or clear the Arena at lvl 53.

Why does it not matter?
-55% in both Lightning and Ice resistance meaning Ice Mage does pretty good dmg on occasional Lightning immunity foes. I can't say that Vine would be superior in dmg because in order to achieve that you would need, maybe >10 points in Quickened Casting and it is a huge waste at intermediate level. My NM has a few points in Quickened Casting but not too many. I meant for her to be a jack-of-all-trades Ice Mage due to the versatility of skills. She can do good damage, can stop enemies on their track, can heal the constantly endangered CM and can cast Invulnerability. Summoning seems really unreliable to me due to the fact that you cannot control the creature and it does not attract aggro, saved Provoke. When Aether Blast is being filled, damage output is just so low that I can't stand it. I wanted full offense with durability, not a glass cannon or slow cooking.

Well speaking about defence. A Nature mage dedicated to defence has all means to be unkillable. Lets see lvl30 Summon Bond 73% damage reduction. lvl30 Absorption 85% absorb. A naked nature mage has then incredible

73%!! melee and ranged resistance
96%!!! fire/lightning/ice/death/non-elemental resistances.

Tank fighters turn green from envy.

The Vine only needs one skill to be on full power, contrary to the elemental damage types like fire or ice, which need three. Means you can be virtually unkillable, and still have enough points for dealing sick damage. Invulnerability lvl1 only needs 1 point in embrace. Means such a mage also gets an additional 6sec godmode ability as if it was not enough.

I mean NM and CM are two different leagues. Not that i like this "balance", but CM has to do at least twice the damage of NM, to be worth comparable, because thats practically the only thing a combat mage can to. No defence, no life, attracts aggro. As for now, where a nature mage even outdamages him often its really a no question.

In fact, looking at the big brother, Diablo2, lighting sorcs are doing up to 10 times as much damage(100K) as comparable characters, and still arent the best damage dealers(like hammerdins with 10K).

fieryeagle

But would you rather do that or constantly bring her back to life

I would( and i did) kick the combat mage out of party and take another NM, which is Deru and Taar. Two NMs healing/ressurecting each other and everyone else is just amazing. Deru is skilled in summoning, has 50% melee resistance and 80%+ elemental thanks to summon bond. Taar is skilled in absorption/ inv lvl3, which later will allow them both to go for INT only gear, for really sick Vine damage. Aether Blast lvl1 deals same damage as lvl3 brutal attack from the 2H-fighter currently in my game, and that to each monster unlike the fighter. Cant wait for lvl3. It is an extremely powerful party combination, yet too requires a tactical thinking since it is needed to attack specific targets, turn on powers at the right moment and retreats. And way less micromanaging( ie fighting with the interface)

Was it a bug or not, I'm not sure but why did the Vai'kesh Seer receive no damage when I triggered Aether Blast? Other than that, it's truly so damaging that it seems unbalanced. 2 Summoners walking around = instant crowd clearing (with Powers ready, mind you ).

About a NM with maxed Summon Bond and Absorption being better at defense then tank, I agree. Even so, it seems unnecessary to me that the NM needs that much defense. It is either the Shield Fighter or the Summon doing the tanking. I put points in Summon Bond and Absorption just so my NM doesn't die in 1 hit, like the CM (and possibly doesn't need mana potions at all). I can't agree with you about CM being only good at dealing damage. Curses has their own respective uses too and the CM without Curses isn't used to the fullest potential. Throughout the acts, there would be easy and difficult times for a specialised CM but she essentially has her uses. The fact that she attracts aggro is an advantage actually because you could use that Provoke for an Aether Blast or Whirling Strike. I think I've gotten pretty adept with manually casting Curses now :laugh:, so much less dying compared to the beginning.

When I wrote "unreliable", I meant the lack of control you have on the Summon. Heck, there were many times my group were surrounded by a mob, perfect for an Aether Blast but the Summon was busy fighting at a distances because it saw that single enemy before the mob . Provoke woud be really wasteful so I had to drag the whole party to the Summon's location.

You know what's the safest way of playing? One point in Embrace for each non-NM party member . If I include Lap Dragon in the party, I could go without a scratch, on equal footings (definitely not working with a huge level gap).

I know most of you don't play online (and may not have BW), so my advice might not be as valid. When playing online my rule is to make my character self-sufficient. If you think mages are weak then you aren't building them right or don't have good gear. (save up those baubles) Most of your skill points will come from your gear and then you'll have more points to spread around.

At the beginning of the game when they say don't train in other classes and stick with only one, that's not really true, especially in BW. Do more cross-training. Any archer, assassin, combat, nature mages would benefit from having some nature, combat and melee levels, and heals with master healing hands skill.

If you have the best gear and 12 or 15 points in chant of stone, your lvl 100 mage will have like 800+ armor.

Nature mages should get quickened casting combat skill (about 20 to 22% or so, eventually) to increase cast speed, faster heals, faster freezing, more dmg, 'faster vines'.

Cold snap with 22% faster cast and 33% chance to freeze can immobilize nearly everything in a radius. If it's frozen, it can't hurt anyone.

A combat mage with master healing hands and lvl 45 nature, with lvl3 heal, can heal over half as good as a nature mage, add chant of stone for 600 to 800 armor, some absorption for magic resist, natural bond, and lightning blast with arcing, add that combat buff spell for another 30% armor, and you're nearly unstoppable. Can even solo, most of the time.

And life steal on combat (lightning) mage is a must. When you're dealing 2000 dmg to one target and another 500 to several more targets with every arc, don't tell me that won't regen massive life. That's another reason you have lvls in nature, to use life embrace/wrath of magic (that would be when soloing).

So, archer, assassin, combat, nature, mage = 17 melee, 45 nature (eventually), and whatever it takes for quickened casting if you're a mage, lvl 24 combat, I think. It takes almost no time to get those extra levels if you fight against mobs around your "character level" - your character will only be 2 or 3 "character levels" behind, and the benefits are huge. Happy hunting!

+superchunky

Use of Mages

Interesting to see how different people use their mages differently. Here's my approach for what it's worth

1) As a start, load up your Melee fighter with as many items you can to improve finding magic items - reserve anything that significantly increases Mana, Intelligence or Armour - why melee? - he can take more damage and still help you to get magic drops

2) As quickly as possible, build up 2 kits for each Mage - one defensive and one offensive (Robes, staffs, gloves, boots, rings, amulets). My Taar goes from 137 Armour (offensive mode) to 265 (defensive mode) and 1,500 Mana (defensive) to 2,606 (offensive) - offensive also carries extra skill levels due to the kit enhancements

3) Depending on the situation, switch kits. Being defensive may reduce your attacking capacity, but you can take the hits with less damage.

4) Accelerate the Icicle Blast power, and back it up with faster power recovery and reduced mana usage - THEN build up healing skills

5) Bring all your other parter members along in their use of Nature spells - you can quickly move up the levels by having everyone with a summons wrath or healing spell in autocast. If you get a bit ahead of the comptetion in terms of levels, give your melee and ranger a work out with the highest level nature spells they can take - this moves them on quickly so they all have an autonomous resurrect capability (not scrolls), and better summoned beasts

5) For the Combat Mage, I focus on Detonation as a power - build up the recharge capabilty via the skills tree. Pay attention to the resistance/healing/ weakness characteristics of the opposition, pause and switch spells regularly.

My mages rarely die now - the last I can recall was the final round of the Amanlu Arena in BW with all the dwarf ballistas - Greater Resurrection brought the mage back quickly and it was over in 45 seconds

PS - the dual kit approach is also useful for other classes - when my melee fighter is just "cruising", he's there to get magic drops; when the going gets tough his armour value doubles and he deals out 175% more damage