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I am not trying to discuss the merits of the class. I have read much about how versatile and deadly they can be, if built and equipped properly.

I have always wanted to get much better at using this class but the fundamental problem remains, how do you use the bard properly?

The primary contribution has to be the bard song. If it gives everyone +1 luck, that is an amazing aggregate benefit to a party of 6. (+5 to hit, +5 damage, +5 on saves, +5 on skill checks etc...). And the Improved bard song basically amplifies this by 400%

But the bard can't do anything except move while singing/playing. So how do you use the bard over the course of a typical encounter?

1. cast spells to buff
2. participate in melee until sustaining significant damage, then...
3. retreat and initiate bard song?

And can you justify a bard in your party when your party is only 3 or 4 instead of 6 characters? I don't think so. First because the aggregate benefit of the song is greatly diminished and second, you really can't justify giving 33% or 25% of the XP award (from a power gaming perspective) to someone who only sings a song. Right?

Just curious what some others here think about integrating a bard into their party. I ask because I just finished BG1/ToSC with a party of 4 and want to scale it down to a party of 3 or 4 for BG2/ToB. And I want the party to consist of NPC's I've never heavily used before...Jan/Haer'Dalis/Edwin. My PC is a cleric ranger who is a very powerful tank class. But I am wondering about needing another damage sponge until I can get Jan/Haer'Dalis and Edwin powerful enough to make them tyrants of their own.

Your thoughts/ideas are appreciated.

When you use Bard Song, it lasts a round or two after you stop singing it, which, with proper micromanagement can be used to your advantage in re-initiating the song as soon as one round is up. You can also have a copy of yourself (Mislead, Project Image or Simulacrum) sing it for you, which leaves the character free to do whatever he or she pleases.

Alternatively, you can have the Bard initiate the fight and tank while signing or, if you prefer, have the bard summon a few minions to buff with this song, which can be useful early on.

If you're looking at it from a powergaming perspective, you'd have all mages, but then again, a bard wouldn't be singing their song so often nor would they get so damaged as to retreat.

Bard will work fine as a tank. If you are expecting it to match ur R/C in physical damage output however I think you will be dissapointed. Once the blade gets 2 swords with xtra attack and improved haste he will dish some out but that only lasts until u cant hit with +2/+3 weapons nemore. To draw heat from ur mages tho he will be fine, mine was never dying just wasnt dropping enemies that fast
I played my bard as a fighter mage buff wise (most spells for buffing) and another character who can throw minor offensive spells to disrupt enemy mages. I never really sat around singing however my clone (vhailors) or mislead often did.

Crenshinibon wrote:When you use Bard Song, it lasts a round or two after you stop singing it, which, with proper micromanagement can be used to your advantage in re-initiating the song as soon as one round is up. You can also have a copy of yourself (Mislead, Project Image or Simulacrum) sing it for you, which leaves the character free to do whatever he or she pleases.

Okay, I just got tingly all over.

I was not aware of the lag in turning off the bard song. So theoretically, you can sing/stop to cast/re initiate singing and repeat throughout the encounter. Agree, that is huge.

If you can cast and sing (or sing and fight with copies) then that means the bard is actually contributing more roles than any other class, which would make him mandatory for smaller parties, rather than being unfairly characterized as a support class (the way I did with my intro post).

I'm not at the point where I want to start soloing. I know I could do it but it would involve a lot of mundane cheese like running around enemies in circles for ridiculous amounts of time. This is only my third playthru of SoA/ToB so while I am okay at it, I need to get much better.

Thanks for helping me get there.

It's not lag. It's just that the song duration is longer than the "cast time". It's been like this since the first game, which really helped given how high your THAC0 was.

Honestly, cheese is not required to solo, micromanagement and knowledge of game mechanics is. The cleric/ranger can essentially bruteforce his/her way through the game without much trouble or relying on cheese. Also, it helps to know what order to do the quests in and what items you need.

Crenshinibon wrote:Also, it helps to know what order to do the quests in and what items you need.

Funny you should mention that because as I was completing BG1/ToSC, I did a complete audit/analysis of how/where XP is delivered throughout the game. And I am going to continue that into SoA/ToB. That should help me considerably, although, that is not why I am doing it.