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So, Fable has suggested that I start a thread in which I can answer questions about our Church. Please keep your questions to a reasonable amount of seriousness, however, I dont mind the occasional joke. I will do my best to answer your questions. If I dont know, I wont make stuff up, Ill simply say, I dont know, and try to find an answer to your question. There are some things I will not talk about due to the fact that we believe them to be sacred, so if you there is something that I believe falls under that category, I will tell you so, and please dont continue to push the subject. Thanks!

Hi!

Following on from stuff written in the Religion thread I started, what do the Mormons teach on:
1. the condition of the dead
2. Heaven and Hell

when you are 18 do you give up your worldly possesions???

Depending on the answer to Fljotsdale's question, what happens to the adherents of other religions? What happened to souls before Joseph Smith?

Did you enjoy the South Park episode "All About Mormons"?

Fljotsdale wrote:Hi!

Following on from stuff written in the Religion thread I started, what do the Mormons teach on:
1. the condition of the dead
2. Heaven and Hell

Hello, sorry for taking so long, been rough lately.

Anyway, on the condition of the dead. Firstly, we believe that all men, women, and children have a spirit inside of them. Our bodies, are like our tabernacles or homes for our spirits. These spirits look just like our bodies, if you were to see what your spirit looks like, you would see that looks just like you do now. That being said, we believe that as soon as the body dies, our spirit will go to the spirit world, a place where the spirits of everyone will await the the resurrection. I will speak more on this later. In the spirit world, there are two divisions, spirit paradise and sprit prison. This is not like a prison with bars or anything but more likely a state of mind. It is called prison because you limited in what you can do in prison, and this "prison" is for those who did not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in their life. It is a prison because they are not able to progress, and unless they have the gospel of Jesus Christ, they will not be able to progress. Likewise, paradise is for those who did accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in life.

As many have spoken, God and Jesus Christ love all people. They each and everyone of us so much that they have provided for people in prison to accept the gospel even in this prison. 1st Peter 3:18-20:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were esaved by fwater.

However, this does not mean that you can simply say I will change later. As stated in the Book of Mormon, Alma 34:32-34:
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the dnight of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

This is saying that your spirit, which did so many things in this life, will have the same tendencies and habits after this life that you had while living, and it will be much harder to change habits without a body. For example, If I smoked in this life, and died a smoker, my spirit would still want to smoke in the next life. I may accept the fact that I need to change, and even make a strong resolution to stop, but I still have no body at this point. When we are resurrected, will my body still desire to smoke?

The Resurrection occurs after the coming of Christ, all people will be resurrected regardless of how they lived their life. However, not all people will be resurrected to the same glory. Some will have celestial glories, some terrestrial, and some will have telestial glories. This is spoken of vaguely in the New Testament. 1st Corinthians 15:40-42:
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the bstars: for one star differeth from another star in dglory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

This particular reference has meaning for our bodies. Not everyones body will be resurrected to the same glory. Some people will have celestial bodies, some will have terrestrial bodies and some will have telestial bodies. What this means, I am unsure. However, the Prophet Joseph Smith clarifies more about what the Celestial, terrestrial and telestial glories are in the Doctrine and Covenants (DC), which is a collection of revelations given to Joseph Smith when he had questions about things, such as the one you asked. In DC 76:51-56, 60-70:
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of cpromise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the achurch of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall acome in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto aMount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

This is a description of the Celestial Kingdom and the people who will inhabit it. Basically is short form, the Celestial Kingdom will be inhabited by people who accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and lived it faithfully. Now, the terrestrial kingdom, DC 76:71-80:
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the cmoon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in bprison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to bwrite while we were yet in the Spirit.

In short, these are people who were good people in life. They may not have been part of any religion but were for the most part good. They were "blinded by the craftiness of men", or in other words, blinded by the the world and the things that are of men and not of God.

Now, as for the telestial, DC 76:81-89, 96-112:
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the atestimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to ahell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the aministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be aministering spirits for them; for they shall be bheirs of salvation.
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press falone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as ainnumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

In short, these people are what some would think as sinners. Murderers, adulterers, etc etc. These people will have to wait until after the millennium to be resurrected, but will still be resurrected to the telestial glory.

Now, notice how each of these kingdoms is a glory. This means that it is still some form of reward. Yes, even the telestial kingdom. It is much better than the earth we live on. So, God is a merciful and loving God. He will reward all his children according to what they have done in this life. All will receive some form of reward. However, only those in the Celestial kingdom will be granted the gift of eternal progression and will be able to become like God and receive all the things that he has. This is God's whole purpose in creating us, to have us be like him, and have what he has.

ValhallaLord66 wrote:when you are 18 do you give up your worldly possesions???

No

endboss wrote:Depending on the answer to Fljotsdale's question, what happens to the adherents of other religions? What happened to souls before Joseph Smith?

Did you enjoy the South Park episode "All About Mormons"?

Really it depends on how you lived your life. You will be rewarded according to your works and faithfulness. Some religions may have more truth than others and some less. So, if the person was truly faithful to his religion, then Im sure the Lord would reward him accordingly, and if they never had a change to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they would be able to accept it in the spirit world and be able to receive the celestial kingdom. However, if they did have a chance in this life, but they rejected it, then they have basically damned themselves, because they chose not to accept it.

As for your other question, as stated before, the gospel will be preached in the spirit world, so those who never had a chance to hear the gospel, such as those before Joseph Smith will have a chance to accept it.

Kristobal wrote:Really it depends on how you lived your life. You will be rewarded according to your works and faithfulness. Some religions may have more truth than others and some less. So, if the person was truly faithful to his religion, then Im sure the Lord would reward him accordingly, and if they never had a change to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they would be able to accept it in the spirit world and be able to receive the celestial kingdom.

Then how do you square this with your own religious doctrine, that both implicitly and explicitly states the opposite? Quoting Joseph Smith your first prophet, in his History of the Church:

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .

So: they were all wrong. Mormonism is right. The polarity is established. And from the Teachings of Joseph Smith:

What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world.

Again Mormonism=Good Religion, and Christianity (by which I assume all non-Mormon religions are intended) equals the devil. And from your next prophet in importance, Brigham Young:

But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong.

From Young's Journal of Discourses, accepted as the truth by your religion:

We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense.... Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell...

And from the book Mormon Doctrine, about what the loss of the original teachings in some elder time before other religions led to:

With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages.

And finally, from the holy Book of Mormon itself:

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (1 Nephi 14:10)

Whew. Plenty of others, but there's the gist of it: a disconnect that I'm sure you can see between your statement that Mormonism feels that some other religions and their followers may have the truth "more or less," and your holy book and most important religious prophets stating that you either follow Mormonism, which is the true Christianity, being the true gospel of Jesus, or you belong to the "church of the devil." I'm not suggesting you don't believe as you've stated, and I have no argument with any religion, save as it demonizes non-believers and makes its own people suffer for guilt that isn't theirs (which is to say, all guilt for deeds not directly their own; and guilt after all is only useful as a spur to better future actions)--but that's a point for another time. Unless I miss my guess, however, you've created a thread here that is intended to give the official Church of Latter Day Saints theological position on several things. As such, your personal views shouldn't be stated as though they are those of your religion, or you should make clear when your views diverge from the official line--as they clearly do, here.

What's the theological position of your Church on homosexuality?

What's its position on women serving in the upper and lower religious hierarchies?

Hello, Kristobal. Rather than go through your reply point by point - it's pretty long! - I just want to quote two verses from the bible, and ask:

How do these bible scriptures fit into the Mormon concept (and, generally the christian concept), of souls living anywhere after death, and suffering the consequences of their sin even after death, as stated in your post to me above?

"The wages sin pays is death." Romans 6:23 - so, clearly, the death of the individual pays for the sins committed during the individual's lifetime - death is the wages of sin. So, death wipes out the sin. Death is the consequence of sin. And "all men sin" so all men die. So all are exonerated of sin upon death.

"The soul that is sinning, it itself will die." Ezekiel 18:4 Note: The SOUL dies. How does that tie in with belief in a separate, immortal soul that is capable of suffering after death? A death that has paid for all sins committed?

AND: If the death of Jesus christ pays for the sins of all mankind - why would they then be requred to suffer after death when the consequences of their sins has been paid by Jesus? It makes no sense that I can see.

1. The death of the individual is the 'wages' of sin.

2. The death of Jesus is also payment for the sins of all mankind.

So, there are two payments for sin: the death of the individual and the death of Jesus.

So, no doubt, then, that the dead are clear of all sin performed during their lifetime. No further payment should be needed after death - and in fact, if such payment is called for it negates the payment of the death of the individual and the death of Jesus.

Makes no sense to me. And it's pretty unfair. As are the 'ranks' among the resurrected, based on their relative sinfulness during their lives, because their sins are all paid for. The slate is wiped clean by death.

Kristobal? You there?

fable wrote: Whew. Plenty of others, but there's the gist of it: a disconnect that I'm sure you can see between your statement that Mormonism feels that some other religions and their followers may have the truth "more or less," and your holy book and most important religious prophets stating that you either follow Mormonism, which is the true Christianity, being the true gospel of Jesus, or you belong to the "church of the devil." I'm not suggesting you don't believe as you've stated, and I have no argument with any religion, save as it demonizes non-believers and makes its own people suffer for guilt that isn't theirs (which is to say, all guilt for deeds not directly their own; and guilt after all is only useful as a spur to better future actions)--but that's a point for another time. Unless I miss my guess, however, you've created a thread here that is intended to give the official Church of Latter Day Saints theological position on several things. As such, your personal views shouldn't be stated as though they are those of your religion, or you should make clear when your views diverge from the official line--as they clearly do, here.

Actually Fable, it is not my opinion that other churches have truth. It is actually something that is taught about from time to time in our church. In fact, many churches, religions, ways of living, etc. have truth in them. To clarify, we believe the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only 100% true church on the earth. A bold claim I know.
DC 1:30: And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundations of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually--

This church is true because it contains all the truth we need to receive exaltation and salvation in the celestial kingdom. It is living because we have a prophet on the earth today who communicates with God and can receive direction from the Lord for the entire church and those people who would receive His direction.

In continued response as to other churches having a form of truth, when Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father appeared to Joseph Smith, Christ told Joseph he was not to join any of the churches on the earth, for they were all wrong. Those churches "draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power there of." -Joseph Smith--History 1:19. This is similar to two scriptures found in the Bible.
First, Isaiah 29:13 - Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men.

Second, 2 Timothy 3:5 - Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

These are scriptures which mean that others have a form of truth. In words that I would use, some churches have 50%, some 30%, some 70%, and so on and so forth, but none have 100% except our church.

Kristobal wrote:These are scriptures which mean that others have a form of truth. In words that I would use, some churches have 50%, some 30%, some 70%, and so on and so forth, but none have 100% except our church.

And this?

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (1 Nephi 14:10)

I really can't reconcile this with what you've written, above. This is not a declaration that "other churches have 30% or 70% of the truth," but a declaration that your church is right, and all others are "of the devil." By which nothing but 100% wrong can be implied.

fable wrote:What's the theological position of your Church on homosexuality?

What's its position on women serving in the upper and lower religious hierarchies?

Homosexuality is a sin and should not be practiced. However, we do not look down on the sinner. If a person has done such a thing, they must repent, but we should not push them down. Rather we should love them and help them try to see the error of their ways. A person who has homosexual tendencies can still be member of our church so long as they do not practice homosexuality. We try to get people who do practice to understand that is a choice to do so. They have the power to choose to act or not act on their feelings. When they act on those feelings then it becomes a sin.

Women can serve in many callings in the church from a teacher in the primary, to being the General Relief Society President. However, women do not hold the priesthood and therefore cannot serve in any callings requiring such, such as the President of the Church, an Apostle, a Seventy, or one who holds priesthood keys. These callings are held by men who hold the priesthood. The only answer I can give as to why is because we believe men and women have different responsibilities in Gods plan, so men hold the priesthood and women have other responsibilities.

fable wrote:And this?

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (1 Nephi 14:10)

I really can't reconcile this with what you've written, above. This is not a declaration that "other churches have 30% or 70% of the truth," but a declaration that your church is right, and all others are "of the devil." By which nothing but 100% wrong can be implied.

Yes Fable, this scripture I believe all the way. Either you are part of the true church, or you not, and any church which is not part of the true church is part of the kingdom of the devil. If you remember, we don't believe in heaven or hell. We believe in different degrees of glory. Everyone will receive rewards according to how much effort and faith they put into their life. Our goal is to get to the celestial kingdom, so you may continue to grow and become better, if you do not achieve this kingdom you are damned. Satan doesn't really care too much if he can drag everyone down to his level, however I'm sure he would love that, but he just wants to damn everyone to a kingdom other than that of the Celestial, so anything but the true church of God is good for him.

Fljotsdale wrote:
"The wages sin pays is death." Romans 6:23 - so, clearly, the death of the individual pays for the sins committed during the individual's lifetime - death is the wages of sin. So, death wipes out the sin. Death is the consequence of sin. And "all men sin" so all men die. So all are exonerated of sin upon death.

"The soul that is sinning, it itself will die." Ezekiel 18:4 Note: The SOUL dies. How does that tie in with belief in a separate, immortal soul that is capable of suffering after death? A death that has paid for all sins committed?

AND: If the death of Jesus christ pays for the sins of all mankind - why would they then be requred to suffer after death when the consequences of their sins has been paid by Jesus? It makes no sense that I can see.

1. The death of the individual is the 'wages' of sin.

2. The death of Jesus is also payment for the sins of all mankind.

So, there are two payments for sin: the death of the individual and the death of Jesus.

These scriptures are true no doubt, but the death they are talking about is a different death than most people think about. There are two types of death we talk about in The Church of Jesus Christ. First, physical death, where the body and spirit are separated and the body dies. Second, spiritual death, which is much worse. The sprit does not actually die, but dies as things pertaining to righteousness. In other words, spiritual death is separation from God.

Right now, in this life, we are spiritually dead because we are not in Gods presence and this is because of our sins, we are imperfect beings.
Alma 42:9 - Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

This is one of the most important reasons Christ came to earth and died for us. He came to release us from this spiritual death. Note that the soul can never die. Those two scriptures which you have quoted are speaking of the spiritual death. Sin is death, because you will separated from God, and if you die in your sins, you will be separated from God forever.

The easiest way to think about this is when Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. They were in Gods presence because they had not sinned yet. They could talk with and be with God. However, as soon as they partook of the forbidden fruit, they sinned and were no longer perfect. They were cast out of the garden and out of Gods presence. This was a spiritual death.

Kristobal wrote:Yes Fable, this scripture I believe all the way. Either you are part of the true church, or you not, and any church which is not part of the true church is part of the kingdom of the devil. If you remember, we don't believe in heaven or hell. We believe in different degrees of glory. Everyone will receive rewards according to how much effort and faith they put into their life. Our goal is to get to the celestial kingdom, so you may continue to grow and become better, if you do not achieve this kingdom you are damned. Satan doesn't really care too much if he can drag everyone down to his level, however I'm sure he would love that, but he just wants to damn everyone to a kingdom other than that of the Celestial, so anything but the true church of God is good for him.

So then, if one doesn't belong to the true church (meaning the LDS) according to its own teachings, one belongs to the church of the devil, and one is damned. The teaching according to the Book of Mormon would seem clear on this. And that again contradicts the idea of other churches having it 30% right, or 50%, or anything else. Because according to the scripture of yours I quoted, either you belong to the LDS, and have it 100% right, or you have it 100% wrong. Which again, with respect, contradicts what you stated, above. It can't be both ways. And if the LDS says it's a case of white/black, and you say it's a case of some churches having 30% or 50% or 70% of it correct, then there's a definite disconnect between the official theological position and yours--unless you're stating that those who have it 70% correct are still worshipping in the church of the devil, and bound for hell? Would that be a correct summation of your views on this point?

Kristobal wrote:Women can serve in many callings in the church from a teacher in the primary, to being the General Relief Society President. However, women do not hold the priesthood and therefore cannot serve in any callings requiring such, such as the President of the Church, an Apostle, a Seventy, or one who holds priesthood keys. These callings are held by men who hold the priesthood. The only answer I can give as to why is because we believe men and women have different responsibilities in Gods plan, so men hold the priesthood and women have other responsibilities.

So women are forbidden to serve in any religious callings, but there's nothing within your holy books about this? Do I understand correctly? The decision within the LDS on this point is cultural, made by a bunch of men in charge, and not theological?