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Hello,

After many years of waiting I finally bought NWN2 plus MOTB. Being an avid BG2 fan, which I still play on ocasion, I was excited about starting my first game. I could not have been prepared for the sheer scope of character creation though.

So without further ado here are my questions:

Let's consider this build Common Paladin Build | NWN2 Character Builder

1) XP penalties. How exactly does it work? A character can't have more then 1 level difference between two main classes unless it is on a favored class, right. But how do I see this in practice. If I were to stick 1 level of cleric somewhere along this build would that apply a XP penalty? How much? How do I go around the penalties? From a gameplay perspective how much does it impact?

2) I've read quite a bit about power builds. While it is fun to min/max rpgs I feel a bit lost when it comes to building a more normal character. The build in question is my attempt at making a paladin build that doesn't look crazy (I mean, pally +bard +RDD might be fun, but it is crazy ). How does that build look? Using fighter levels to get proficiency is worth it? Does it matter if my first level is a fighter or a paladin? Finally, how would you build a common paladin to look solid without going too strong on wacky builds? Would levels of cleric be usefull?

3) One aspect I've found sub-par on this game is how companions behave in battle. Fine BG also needed custom made scripts for the AI to be usefull but on NWN characters actually charge in by themselves and most of the time causing dire situations. (a mage charging at a group across the screen from where her friends are fighting). How do you setup your characters so they at least stay put most of the time. Is puppet mode the only option?

4) I've been trying to make some builds for clerics. Can someone give me a few pointers on how would they build a cleric. Keeping in mind that I'm not ever going to be PVPing so I'm looking for builds that make sense more then power-building. A powerfull character is still fun though.

Anyway, I better stop here before It gets too long. (it is already isn't it?)

I'm loving the character building site, whoever made it *thumbs up*.

Thanks a bunch for any pointers and help.

1)

1 level of cleric would give a XP penalty. The paladin is not counted due to aasimar race so the highest level is fighter 4. 4 is 3 away from 1 so you get a penalty. I forget if its 20 or 10 but it is 1 increment. You can't play that build without a penalty, its just part of multiclassing. You could reduce Paladin levels to 2 to get saving throws and then take even fighter and cleric levels which might be ok but it would be a totally different build.

2)
A level of cleric is only used to get feats. Alternatively you can be a buffer cleric with a few paladin levels for saves.. It doesn't need cleric. Your build should take fighter 8 to get GWF which will allow you to take EWF. AB is important. In the camaigns less so. Your build can beat the campaigns but epic toughness is not the best thing ever. A power build munchkin might be a fighter 18 Pal 4 Shadowdancer 1 WM 7 with HIPS Epic Divine Might And criticals. EDM multiplies on criticals.. (mithril plate is about like studded leather for sneaking, though you'll have low dex but HIPs is bugged so you don't need to suceed to strip dodge)

3) For OC with friendly fired disabled AI is good enough to stay alive. Sometimes a mage will charge but you just take over at that point. I never completed MotB.

4) Do you want to be a buff bot or a caster? I would make a cleric/monk/SF if you can take SF...... Just go like 13 cleric 10 SF 6 monk 1 Shadowdancer

I've personally had lots of problems with multi-class XP penalties.

Here is the info on it:

Multiclass penalty - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

Here is the character's normal progression (including racial LEVEL penalties i.e. ECL):

Character progression - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

Here is the composite of both:

Multiclass penalty and ECL comparison - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more


What is NOT stated is that you don't really "see" the penalty at any time. The only time you actually see it is when you progress beyond the normal XP progression for that level and it still hasn't given you the "level-up" signal. In other words you have to look at the character sheet XP total each level (..and factor in previous level XP penalties if any).

A note about Paladins..

As a base class Paladins are not that good, and can have most (or even all) of their "extras" accommodated by certain class structures. Extras with a High BAB include: improved saves, exceedingly limited spell casting, immunity to fear, immunity to disease, limited turn undead, and very limited smite evil.

Improved Saves are the best feature of the class.. but you can do nearly as well with improved save cloaks. This leaves leveraging the turn undead for divine might and divine shield as the major bonus to the class.

They are sort of a "hold-over" class from the "golden days" of D&D. In a low class level environment they still make sense, but most of the OC isn't at low levels.

IMO your build is pretty good for a solid Paladin. I would have altered several of the feats you have chosen, but it still isn't bad - and for the most part is even good.

Though not necessarily better, this is the way I'd build a Paladin (..and it's better than most Clerics):

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=32730&version=1

Here is another where the emphasis is on melee (it requires SOZ installed however):

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=32819&version=1

I personally prefer the first however.. but that's because I find most melee monotonous.

Claudius wrote:1)

1 level of cleric would give a XP penalty. The paladin is not counted due to aasimar race so the highest level is fighter 4. 4 is 3 away from 1 so you get a penalty. I forget if its 20 or 10 but it is 1 increment. You can't play that build without a penalty, its just part of multiclassing. You could reduce Paladin levels to 2 to get saving throws and then take even fighter and cleric levels which might be ok but it would be a totally different build.

Check. In terms of gameplay, how bad is it to have a penalty? Does the game let's you level untill you reach 30 (for Motb) or is there a hard XP level, which would mean that if you have a penalty you won't be able to reach 30?

Claudius wrote:2)
A level of cleric is only used to get feats. Alternatively you can be a buffer cleric with a few paladin levels for saves.. It doesn't need cleric. Your build should take fighter 8 to get GWF which will allow you to take EWF. AB is important. In the camaigns less so. Your build can beat the campaigns but epic toughness is not the best thing ever. A power build munchkin might be a fighter 18 Pal 4 Shadowdancer 1 WM 7 with HIPS Epic Divine Might And criticals. EDM multiplies on criticals.. (mithril plate is about like studded leather for sneaking, though you'll have low dex but HIPs is bugged so you don't need to suceed to strip dodge)

I see a lot of builds with HIPS. While I can see the benefits of being able to disapear during combat, is there something I'm not seeing? I can see how it would be crucial in PVP, but for campaign play? You can get some sneak attacks in I suppose, but is there something else?

Claudius wrote: 3) For OC with friendly fired disabled AI is good enough to stay alive. Sometimes a mage will charge but you just take over at that point. I never completed MotB.

Blasphemy! I actually restarted my very first game after finding out I had been playing under "normal" settings which in this game are nothing but normal.

Claudius wrote: 4) Do you want to be a buff bot or a caster? I would make a cleric/monk/SF if you can take SF...... Just go like 13 cleric 10 SF 6 monk 1 Shadowdancer

Well, tough choice. I suppose I would play first a cleric that can buff himself into a combat machine. But the perspective of a more misterious and cleric that really shines using his devine powers is tempting.

Thanks a bunch for the tips Claudius

Scottg wrote:What is NOT stated is that you don't really "see" the penalty at any time. The only time you actually see it is when you progress beyond the normal XP progression for that level and it still hasn't given you the "level-up" signal. In other words you have to look at the character sheet XP total each level (..and factor in previous level XP penalties if any).

This was actually my main problem. That I couldn't really see the penalty. It would have probably been better if the game would instantly tell you that you'd incur a penalty by selecting so and so class. Thanks for the information though. The wiki is always helpfull.

Scottg wrote:
Though not necessarily better, this is the way I'd build a Paladin (..and it's better than most Clerics):

Paladin of Torm | NWN2 Character Builder

I must admit, one of the main reasons that made me post here was to maybe "influence" you to make a build. After reading lots of posts here, I've been following some of your builds on the character builder site and noticed you didn't have a cleric-type build or a paladin-type build. I suppose my plan worked.

Yes, I'm coming to terms with how paladins aren't really a shining class anymore. Old habits you know.

Thanks a lot for the tips so far.

kayapo wrote:
I must admit, one of the main reasons that made me post here was to maybe "influence" you to make a build. After reading lots of posts here, I've been following some of your builds on the character builder site and noticed you didn't have a cleric-type build or a paladin-type build. I suppose my plan worked.

I've been bamboozled!


Basically the build I proposed makes better use of your Charisma modifier, while also getting some additional "perks" from the build beyond spell casting.

i.e. Charisma Save modifiers + Divine Might/Divine Shield + good Spell Casting ability.

"perks" include: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in a good weapon (Great-sword) + additional Elemental Resistance + 10/Damage Reduction (late in the build at level 25).

Damage with the Great-sword at level 8 is:

2d6 (averaging 6) +4 Strength damage = average of 10 per hit. Power Attack can add-in +3. Then add-in Divine Might +4 and other spell-buff sources if you want to buff. At later levels add-in + 2 for Weapon Specialization. Not to shabby.

The only penalty is to BAB, and that can on occasion be altered with the spell Divine Power - and even then the character will only really need it when facing very difficult opponents. In fact there are a number of low level spells that will *also* add to attack numbers for the build (..and are particularly useful with Persistent Spell.)

The only "catch" to the build is selecting the correct spells.

HIPS is good because it is bugged so that you don't even need to pass a stealth check to get a benefit of stripping the opponents dodge AC. That is huge particularly when fighting high dex creatures or characters.

I'm not sure on MoTB. On the OC I played drow ecl 2 and I only reached level 19. You can always cheat xp though.

Claudius wrote:
I'm not sure on MoTB. On the OC I played drow ecl 2 and I only reached level 19.

I'll confirm that.