Thoughts about powegaming

[Sykar]

Alright I have pondered the last 2 evenings as a break from my studies about some of the powergaming builds I have seen and these are my conclusions:

1.) Pal 1-2/ Sorc X builds

I never had problems with fear in the entire game. Practically every party has 1-2 cleric builds at least and already a level 1 spell solves the whole issue. So in my book the immunity to fear an fear aura are nearly useless. The paltry 6 bonus Hitpoints do not justify the further delay of important spells and you get important spells at every level.

Saves: If you'd get a pure drow Sorc instead of Aasimar Pal/Sorc you'd have about the same progression while having the spell resistance from the very beginning and his SR is more powerful by the time the party gets the Holy Avenger. About 50% of all spells won't affect him in any possible way.Throw in the usual +SR Aura in HoF and you are nearly unharmable by magics. In fact the SR provided by the Holy Avenger is only about two third of the SR from the Drow Racial at that time.
Just look at it First HA gives +15 SR which is at the last third of normal mode and a Drow will easily have a SR of 25 or more at that time!
In HoF the second HA gives +30 SR but a Drow will have something like 35 SR already albeit the difference isn't as crass as in normal mode. Still those two weapons are much less available than the Drow racial and you are tied to humans and aasimars.
His Will saves are solid anyway and you can even up his Con and get Great Fortitude to improve his Fort saves to solid levels. Furthermore against most gravy Fort save spells like FoD you can have Seven Eyes and Death Wards. Mind Blank and Chaotic Commands are also an option if you are afraid of enchantment spells so much.
Exaltation allivates the most severe stuf in the early stages of the game.
Still admitting that Sorc synergizes very well with Pal.
From a role playing perspective absolutely terrible though. I wanted to add:

Pros of a pure Sorc:
+Maximizing Skull Trap damage.
+Maximized duration on all buffs bar those who have a defined duration already like Emotion:Hope.
+Getting those great spells much earlier unless those Pal levels get added later. Still you are then tied to Aasimar due to Exp penalties and they are inferior to Drows even with Holy Avenger since SR gets up to 41 at level 30! The 15 from normal Holy Avenger a Drow has already at level 5( ECL 7)! And it is right there anyway from the very beginning!
+Maximizing spell selection (neglegible though after 25 latest)

2.) human/half elf Bard 9 / Druid 21 dual class build:
Wonderful concept especially with the Weimar Mod. Won't use the Half Dragon form before HoF though.
Just what I was looking for a diplomat and not using a Sorc for it. Especially great since he doesn't need many feats, Lingering Song and Extra Wild Shape suffice actually, so you can get some vastly undervalued feats like Mercentile Background at the start which nets 10% more gold essentially through buying and selling. Considering many items cost up to 100k gold and sell for 10k or more per item we speak of several tens of thousands of gold saving which can be used to get some stuff we lack due to bad luck drop earlier.
Very interesting idea for roleplay!
I even go so far and maximized Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma and gut Str, Dex and Con to 6,8,8. This makes protecting her a bit more difficult but she gets much more skill points and since she is the main thief and some thieving skills are cross classed those come in handy. I might even get Strong Back at level 3 or Luck of Heroes since Rapid Shot is useless on her and other important feats cannot be taken until she has druid levels.

3.) Evoker versus Sorcerer:

I did notice that all Wiz/X builds always use general wizards and many glee so joyfully about Sorcs. Has never ever anyone taken a look at the Evoker?

Pros
+ Main stat is Int great to mix with Rogue.
+ Tons of Skill points.
+ Much broader spell selection than Sorc. Can easily change his blasting spells to certain other types For example if you are in a fire resistant area changing your blasting spells all to ice themed ones is easily done like Freezing Sphere, Ice Lance, Cone of Cold, Finger's of Frost, Ice Storm instead if Burning Hands, Fireball, DBFB and Meteor Swarm.
Ice Temple comes to mind, close to no Sorc get's spells like Wall of Fire, Beltyns Burning Blood and Fire Shield: Red which are quite nice here and you can get the GSF for Necro and Evocation at 7 already if you forfeit Combat Casting at 1.
+ Can easily use spells like sleep and colour spray right away for great crowd control and later just ditch them when the are useless. For a Sorc Colour Spray and Sleep are wasted spell picks very soon. Albeit Colour Spray continues to stun, there are no Spell Foci feats available for it.
+ Reaches new spell levels one level earlier. So Fireball at 5 instead of 6 for example. Cone of Cold and Sunfire at level 9 instead of 10.
+ Looses only Diviniation which is quite useless and Conjuration but he can sill use the Animate Dead spell which is quite good still on it's own + the illusionary summons which are solid as well. In short he looses nothing really he gets all the powerful spells still. You loose Mage Amor and Ghost Armor but you can still get Spirit Armor which should suffice.
+ 5, 6 or 7 bonus Feats compared to Sorc of similar level depending if you go for level 20, 25 or 30 which gives you more room for feat selecctions and you can acquire crucial ones much earlier.
He can get all the elemental feats and all the Spell Foci feats easily if he wishes it albeit I am still sure that Aqua Mortis is the least relevant.
And before you knock down GSF:Transmutation consider these spells:

Slow: Great mass disabler spell which cuts movement by 50%, decreases attacks per round by 1 which means 20% to 50% less attacks depending on how many attacks per round an opponent has, reduces AC and to hit of opponents as well! Hold Person might give more drastic results, but has much smaller AoE, only affects humanoids
Desintigrate:
A little weaker than FoD but earlier available. Terrific against mages and rogue types just like FoD.
Burning Hands:
Great Troll finisher. Deals more damage than MM if you hit 2 or more targets with it. Needs close to be close to enemies though. Some troll shamans use Minor Elemental Barrier close to death so normal elemental damage weapons are unable to kill them.

Cons
- 1 less spell per day per spell level but only after level 19.
- Less flexible casting.
- Needs more thought and micro management to use to full power.
- Less easy to mix with Paladin if you think you cannot live without the added saves. Then again Drow and Holy Aura normally suffice for it.
- Looses Mage Armor and Ghost Armor which hurts at the start. Still since you take at least another secondary mage with you like the DG decoy devoting that ones slots for those spells should generally be enough.

Fav. Class of Tiefling is Rogue and Drow is Wizard so no problems with multi classing to rogue and in case of drow any other class you fancy.
Since both get +2 dex you can make them into great archers with the Rapid Shot feat if you wish it.
Or since they cannot wear Armor get 1 Ranger and 2 fighter levels and turn them into respectable fighters with Tensers, Stoneskins, Haste and Mirror Images.
If you go with Tiefling I'd get Scion of Storms and Spirit of Flame and Aegis of Rime asap since they stack with your natural resistances. Spirit of Flame gives the Tiefling 10 Fire Reistance which helps a lot in the last chamber against the bronze monks. Scion of Storms ups your Electrical Resistance to 10 which is quite useful in Fel Wood against the Will o'Wisps and Sherincal if you can manage to get it there.

I see many claiming that 20 levels of wizard suffice. I beg to consider this though:
30 levels of wizard mean: 50% longer duration on most buffs. Most noticable on haste/imp. Haste which have to be recast much less frequently saving precious slots for more blasting spells.
Also maximizing Skull Trap damage is quite nice too. Compare 30d6 Skull Trap to 20d6 Skull Trap. The difference is staggering. Some enemies take extra damage even from it. Coupled with GSF: Necro hard to save against. Slashing damage which is quite rare for a spell.
As to the rogue mix in, quite valuable if you have no other ways of obtaining rogue skills. Otherwise a waste imho since one character suffices for picking locks, finding and disarming traps + pick pocket so before I'd add a rogue level I'd check if there aren't other alternatives. For example the Bard 9/ 21 Druid can do most of the rogue stuff just fine so the Wiz can concentrate on all the magical skills.

4.) Gutting Intelligence:
If there is one thing I hate then it's gutting intelligence. 8-10 is considered avarage. 7-6 would be Forest Gump like. 5-4 someone with a heavy mental deficient like Trisomie 21. Less than 4 should be something like a drooling gibbering idiot who can't even eat by himself just barely breathing.
Yes I know in terms of gameplay it doesn't matter at all. I still can't bring it over myself gutting Int to less than 8 means in my book a character can't look after himself.
Charisma on the other hand, well a terrible personality might be very aggravating but in terms of survival and being able to care for yourself doesn't mean much.

[Sykar]

5.) Standing in melee

Seeing how Silverdragon made a big effort to make all his party members being able to stand in melee one has to ask himself if that is really neccessary.
To make a long story short based on my experience with IWD 2 which I play once in while since its release I can definitely say no. At most you want 4 characters being able to stand in melee in HoF mode but 2-3 suffice already. So making a big effort getting various levels in with Pal and Monk just to get something which for example his main cleric doesn't need is kinda pointless. While it is true that level 9 spells are lackluster having additional summons as cannon fodder is imho still better than sending a character with medicore melee capabilities at best into the fray. Especially since that characters dexterity screams for ranged combat.

6.) Comparison spells per day
As I wrote earlier Evoker has as disadvantage 1 slot per day less but not before level 20. How? That is simply due to the fact that an Evoker gets his next new spell level every odd level beginning with level 3 while a Sorc has to wait until level 4.
So when for example the Evoker hits level 5 he has 2 spell level 3 slots immediatly evening out the maybe 1 less slot before especially since level 3 offers much more powerful spells.
At level 6 Sorc starts with level 3 spells as well and they have both the same castings per level. The Sorc gets 1 more at 7 but the wizard again pulls ahead with 2 brand new level 4 spells.
So simply saying that the Sorc has more spells per day isn't simply true for the first 2/3rd of the game counting in HoF mode even since very few will hit 20 in normal. Most will hit about 16-17 at best and at level 17 a Wizard can get level 9 spells and again Wail of the Banshee, Meteor Swarm and Executioner Eyes are simply amazing in the last battles. Sorc at least needs level 18.

[koz-ivan]

you make some really good points.

3.) Evoker versus Sorcerer:

I did notice that all Wiz/X builds always use general wizards and many glee so joyfully about Sorcs. Has never ever anyone taken a look at the Evoker?

Pros
+ Main stat is Int great to mix with Rogue.
+ Tons of Skill points.
+ Much broader spell selection than Sorc. Can easily change his blasting spells to certain other types For example if you are in a fire resistant area changing your blasting spells all to ice themed ones is easily done like Freezing Sphere, Ice Lance, Cone of Cold, Finger's of Frost, Ice Storm instead if Burning Hands, Fireball, DBFB and Meteor Swarm.
Ice Temple comes to mind, close to no Sorc get's spells like Wall of Fire, Beltyns Burning Blood and Fire Shield: Red which are quite nice here and you can get the GSF for Necro and Evocation at 7 already if you forfeit Combat Casting at 1.

wizards always got a bad rap in iwd2, mostly due to lack of available scrolls - depending on the speed in which you level - the sorc can actually gain the spell(s) you really want faster than their wizard friends.

speaking of "friends" - the sorc can turn cha booting spells into more bonus spells, the wizards cannot unless they can then memorize the spells, then rest again. that advantage can also boot the saves in the pally / sorc builds.

--

w/ mages i usually went with transmuters instead of evokers, both to take advantage of some story stuff, and iirc the transmuter didn't give up much in opposition schools. (but going from memory there)

[Sykar]

Sorcerers can get the spells I want faster? How? I wrote a big argument pointing out that the strength of the wizard lies in him being able to get every spell earlier than the Sorc especially as a pure classed wizard and now you tell me I am wrong without providing an argument.

Few available scrolls? And that's a minus for the mage how who gets more spells per level up than the Sorc anyway?

Using the Char boostig spell also do not grant them more spells because just like the wizard the sorcerer needs to rest to gain those extra new spell slots just like the wizard has to.
They only add to the maximum available spells per day, not the current ones.

Transmuters give up on Abjuration. Stoneskin is far too valuable for the tiny bit of story stuff in the underdark to give up Stoneskin for it.

[Stworca]

wizards always got a bad rap in iwd2, mostly due to lack of available scrolls - depending on the speed in which you level - the sorc can actually gain the spell(s) you really want faster than their wizard friends.

I believe our friend koz-ivan has mistaken IWD2 for BG2, where his statements would be truthful. Sorcerers have 1 more spell per level than wizards.

Now on topic.. I've managed to beat the game with solo sorcerer, and the one and only problem for the entire game (on HoF, no less) were Xvim knights on the last level.

The main advantage of sorc over wizard is flexibility DURING combat. Mage can prepare tons of spells, tons of differend ones, but he cannot change his mind when people bash his face with a mace. Sorcerer can. With careful planning and good spell picks, sorcerer is perfect for "OMFG EVERYTHING WENT WRONG!" moments. Hell, he doesn't experience such at all.

Regards

[koz-ivan]

Sorcerers can get the spells I want faster? How? I wrote a big argument pointing out that the strength of the wizard lies in him being able to get every spell earlier than the Sorc especially as a pure classed wizard and now you tell me I am wrong without providing an argument.

wizards can cast a generic level spell faster than a sorc, that much is true. however if you want to cast a specific 3rd level spell (like say fireball) the sorc may learn that spell earlier in the game - because the sorc can / will learn it at level 6 - the wizard can learn it as early a lv 5, but will also need to find a scroll for it.

how much this impacts you depends on the speed of your levels ups, after awhile the wizard will in all likelihood get the scrolls you want, so his will balance out by the endgame & hof, but this can be more than a trivial issue as you work your way through the first time.

Few available scrolls? And that's a minus for the mage how who gets more spells per level up than the Sorc anyway?

in iwd2 mages don't learn spells @ levelup they merely gain the ability to cast the spells they scribe from scrolls.

see also:
[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/the-wandering-wizard-23151.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/the-wandering-wizard-23151.html[/url]

[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/i-need-a-fireball-scroll-50517.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/i-need-a-fireball-scroll-50517.html[/url]

[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/wizard-spell-acquisition-75969.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/wizard-spell-acquisition-75969.html[/url]

[Sykar]

wizards can cast a generic level spell faster than a sorc, that much is true. however if you want to cast a specific 3rd level spell (like say fireball) the sorc may learn that spell earlier in the game - because the sorc can / will learn it at level 6 - the wizard can learn it as early a lv 5, but will also need to find a scroll for it.

how much this impacts you depends on the speed of your levels ups, after awhile the wizard will in all likelihood get the scrolls you want, so his will balance out by the endgame & hof, but this can be more than a trivial issue as you work your way through the first time.



in iwd2 mages don't learn spells @ levelup they merely gain the ability to cast the spells they scribe from scrolls.

see also:
[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/the-wandering-wizard-23151.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/the-wandering-wizard-23151.html[/url]

[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/i-need-a-fireball-scroll-50517.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/i-need-a-fireball-scroll-50517.html[/url]

[url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/wizard-spell-acquisition-75969.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/wizard-spell-acquisition-75969.html[/url]

I normally have all the neccessary scrolls when I level up, heck I even learn high level spells before I can cast them if I need the space in my scroll case.
I never had any problems finding crucial spells for my wizard.

[Sykar]

I believe our friend koz-ivan has mistaken IWD2 for BG2, where his statements would be truthful. Sorcerers have 1 more spell per level than wizards.

Now on topic.. I've managed to beat the game with solo sorcerer, and the one and only problem for the entire game (on HoF, no less) were Xvim knights on the last level.

The main advantage of sorc over wizard is flexibility DURING combat. Mage can prepare tons of spells, tons of differend ones, but he cannot change his mind when people bash his face with a mace. Sorcerer can. With careful planning and good spell picks, sorcerer is perfect for "OMFG EVERYTHING WENT WRONG!" moments. Hell, he doesn't experience such at all.

Regards

1.) Not knowing what comes next battle applies to people playing the game first time only which is hardly the case in this forum.
2.) A lot of spells are useful in almost all combat situations. Of course if I go to the Ice Temple I will not memorize frost spells for example. You'd have to be a completly oblivious fool to screw up so much that you'd think that your wizard is completely unprepared. But spells like Magic Missle, Mirror Image, Desintigrate, Slow, Haste/Mass Haste, Executioners Eyes, Animate Dead, Illusion Summons, etc. are a always useful.

[koz-ivan]

I normally have all the neccessary scrolls when I level up, heck I even learn high level spells before I can cast them if I need the space in my scroll case.
I never had any problems finding crucial spells for my wizard.

off hand i'd say you should consider yourself fairly lucky in that regard, maybe that is the result of the drow ecl or just using a different size party or leveling strategy. like i said a few posts back, there is / was a reason why most of the power parties all jumped on the sorc's bandwagon.

1.) Not knowing what comes next battle applies to people playing the game first time only which is hardly the case in this forum.
2.) A lot of spells are useful in almost all combat situations. Of course if I go to the Ice Temple I will not memorize frost spells for example. You'd have to be a completly oblivious fool to screw up so much that you'd think that your wizard is completely unprepared. But spells like Magic Missle, Mirror Image, Desintigrate, Slow, Haste/Mass Haste, Executioners Eyes, Animate Dead, Illusion Summons, etc. are a always useful.

the one aspect of the sorc's i really liked is their ability to cast some of the more favorable spells at (almost) any time, situational spells are totally situational - the sorc has fewer of them, but can usually cast them as needed and when they don't need them they can just keep blasting.

the wizard otoh needs to rest to change up his/her attack profile - however they can completely change things up which is pretty awesome too.

ideally i'd have a sorc for the pure blasting goodness and a wizard to fill in the gaps and cast some of the very useful spells that might not be worth one of the sorc's few known spell slots.

--

looking back at your earlier post i'm not sure i really get your reliance on 30 caster levels, yeah 10d6 more skull trap damage is sweet, otoh in hof i'm not sure that matters. most of my hof magic was aimed more at control magic - charm, hold, confuse, slow. and trying to land some of the insta-kill spells (and cheesetastic summons) vs trying to blast through the silly number of hit points most foes had.

2nd i've never cared much for magic resistance i know some swear by it, but to me it was never really that big of a deal. it's nice to have but not worth paying a premium for it.

[Sykar]

The main reasons why people jump bandwagons are:

1.) Lazyiness to come up with something of their own
2.) Everybody says so, therefore it's true
3.) Tell me where do you have a problem to get spells early enough? I sure never did on my drow evoker.

As to your last comment, you proved just what I was saying. Many players claim that SR is one of the best abilities to have. You on the other hand have no problems with it. Neither do I.
Likewise Silverdragons party, albeit it's quite ultimate of course, is simply overkill in regards to being able to stand in melee.
For example him having a priest with Str 6 standing in melee is quite silly. He won't hit much, does crap damage and he'd better off using blasting spells instead of his meager melee capabilities, even if his AC is good enough to be able to. On the other hand that priest has a dex of 18. That pratically screams ranged combat.

Many do not use the Mercentile Backgound feat. While it's of course nothing crucial but for example the bard 9/druid 21 character does not need much beside Wild Shape so you can easily fit it in and get a couple of nice items earlier because in essence it saves you 10ks of golds easily.

As to the Evoker, mine already got Imp. Spell Focus at level 1 and will get a next Spell Focus feat at level 3 already and at level 5 I will already have 2 schools enhanced by Greater Spell Focus Evocation + Ench/Necro/Trans depending on what I prefer to use. I can get a third GSF to that at level 7 already and at 9 can get my first Elemental Feat and at 10 my second.
So while my Evoker has a bit less spells and needs to memorize he has more spells with a significantly higher DC and will have more spells dealing extra damage earlier. Heck he can have all 4 elemental feats + 3 GFS at level 15 + Combat Casting. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Yes later after level 20 Sorc will go ahead a bit but it's not as crass as many claim it to be.
Compare that to a Sorc who get at best 1 1/2 Spell Focus and an Elemental Feat. Lot's of spells my Wizard has a better DC already and at that level a difference of 2/4 DC is immense.
True nearing level 20 this will get a neglegible benefit but so does the 1 extra spell and no memorization come to be negelegible benefits.
And besides, Sorcs are incredibly boring and repetetive.

The main reason people go for Sorc is convenience. Power wise he is pretty similar to the Evoker unless you royally screw up with spell selection.
Then again a wizard can change the spell selection. A Sorc cannot.

10d6 is quite immense considering you can use it multiple times and can hit several oppoents with it but I guess potential 60d6 and more extra damage is really nothing especially against certain enemies who receive extra damage from slashing damage...

Oh and before you come up with some thing like 'But you don't get any usful feats after' my Evoker got 20 Dex. He can easily get Rapid Shot and Weapon Focus (ranged weapon) and can resort to some ranged damgage and he will actually hit something.
Other useful feats could be Strong Back for some additional carry capacity or any of the save feats and he got quite some good saving throws thanks to 20 dex and 16 con coupled with magic resistance and protection spells it is not easy to harm him with magic.

[Stworca]

Sorcs are incredibly boring and repetetive.

The main reason people go for Sorc is convenience. Power wise he is pretty similar to the Evoker unless you royally screw up with spell selection.
Then again a wizard can change the spell selection. A Sorc cannot.

Your statements are true and accurate, but only for Pen and Paper D&D. Icewind Dale series, BG2 series, NWN series.. They all have only a few available spells per level anyway. Some of them are useless.. Which makes picking 5 spells per level easy.
You're bound to cast the same spells over and over as mage as well.

[Sykar]

I change my spells regulary. As I outlined in my very first post in the ice temple for example I use all the fire spells no Sorc dares to get like Beltyn's Burning Blood or Fire Wall. Heck few Sorcs get Burning Hands even which is terrific around Wanderiung Village with the abundance of Snow Trolls and those priests cast Minor Elemental Barrier before they go down so normal fire damage from weapons is usually useless.
Likewise I can easily use Sleep and Colour Spray at start which provides terrific crowd control but is absolutely useless later so no Sorc will get it at start.
In BG2 the difference at as low as 20 is actually even greater thanks to Wizards getting all the Sequencers and Both Contingencies right away while the Sorc has to stick wit 1 spell he can cast 3 times per day and even 2-3 levels later might not dare to pick it especially the low tier seqencer and the standard Contingency.

My Chromatic Orb already got a +2 DC over a Sorc and will have level 2 spells already at 3.
and having the ability to cast 3 level 2 spells at level 3 > 1 more level 1 spell at level 3. And if I get nice spells like Snillocs the additional +2 DC is juicy.
This will persists until level 19. Only then will the Sorc be head clearly in spells per day.
If a Sorc gets Combat Casting first I enjoy a +4 DC even. I do not udnerstand why people are so honry about it though. Most of the time te arcane caster should not have the attention of enemies.

And so you know what I think about Sorcs, I deleted 2 Sorcs of about level 16-17 in BG2 in the Underdark because they were do god damn boring for me.

By the way, the only reason Sorcs pull ahead of wizards after level ~23 is the fact that Bioware increased Sorc's spell selection after level 20 which should never have happened. Being able to get 5 spells per tier is what makes Sorcs so strong but it doesn't happen until end game but early and mid game need to be played as well.

[smileycrawford]

You do make some excellent points as to why wizards are better than sorcerers. I take one of each in a game to take advantage of both strengths.
What I find most annoying with wizards is if you go into battle and find you needed different spells, you have to re-load your game, or run away, change your spells, rest and then go back into battle. I do think that this is probably more realistic, but it is very annoying in a game. I really wish there was a cleric comparison to the sorcerer for this reason as well.
I find that I end up taking a broad range of spells for a wizard to encompass most situations, but in a battle, I quickly run out of usefull spells and end up using weapons then. Meanwhile, my sorcerer keeps blasting away. If I want to use 6 delayed fireballs in a long drawn out fight, I have that ability to do that.
I agree that stopping a spellcaster at level 20, as is suggested in powergaming guides, is silly. Take them as high as they can go as a lot of spells duration or power is based on the spellcaster's level.
I usually take 2 levels of paladin with a sorcerer. You make some excellent points as to why a drow sorcerer may be better. Next time I make a build, I'll give the drow a chance. The more spellcaster levels, the better, and taking 2 paladin levels early on always set this character back.

[koz-ivan]

re: specialist wizards -

decided to reload the game last night and have been putting the bare bones of a party together, was looking into a drow wiz and noticed that evoker has div & conjuration opposition schools, the diviner however has only conjuration.

the difference may be relatively minor per a gamefaq the only mage div spells are:
1 Identify
2 See Invisibility
9 Executioner's Eyes

ex eyes is a pretty cool spell, if the only difference between specialists is opposition school, then i'd say the diviners are more powerful than the evokers.

conjuration can be tough to give up though: in addition to most summon spells (except for ani dead) conjuration includes:
1 Grease
1 Mage Armor
2 Melf's Acid Arrow
2 Web
3 Flame Arrow
3 Ghost Armor
3 Stinking Cloud
4 Vitriolic Sphere
5 Cloudkill

mage armor, melf's, vitriolic & flame arrow are all pretty useful spells.

anyway i'm not 100% certain on this party yet:

1. deep gnome of massive weirdness and powergaming - developed along the lines of jupp's (arcane) decoy - a bunch of 1 off classes and 20 levels of illusionist.
2. drow cleric - plan for 17-18 levels of cleric then will go mage for more protective magics for hof.
3. human bard / druid - planning for a similar split, not sure if i'll take bard 1 first -> all the druid levels and come back to bard for hof, or if i should just go druid then worry about bard stuff later.
4. i may go pure drow sorc here.
5. i've been contemplating the pure drow diviner here - see also toon #6

6. the wildcard slot. as the party really lacks a presence is melee, i'm wondering about another drow build here, ftr 4, rogue 3 (or 5) wiz X, or maybe just going for 6-8 levels of ftr, then start adding wiz levels. due to the con penalty this will never be a really big a big meatshield, alas.

--

looking at it there are too many drow on the dancefloor, normally i'd of used a mix in of teifling, asimar etc, but i wanted to really put sr to the test. also may be too many wiz addins - right now the plan is for 3 lv 20 wizards and one in the 10+ range (alongside of a 30 sorc) - feels like too much of a good thing - may redirect #6 into some kind of warrior priest.

[smileycrawford]

I'd definitely add a cleric build in there as they are extremely powerfull on the front lines. My Aasimar Pal(2)/Cleric(x) is awesome, and a 2nd very good build is a Drow cleric(x)/Fighter(4)/Monk(3).

[koz-ivan]

both good options there, leaning towards the Aasimar Pal(2)/Cleric(x) both for the holy avenger and the stat bonuses from completing the quest.

i just have to remember not to use him as "quest turn in guy" lol.

[Sykar]

re: specialist wizards -

decided to reload the game last night and have been putting the bare bones of a party together, was looking into a drow wiz and noticed that evoker has div & conjuration opposition schools, the diviner however has only conjuration.

the difference may be relatively minor per a gamefaq the only mage div spells are:
1 Identify
2 See Invisibility
9 Executioner's Eyes

ex eyes is a pretty cool spell, if the only difference between specialists is opposition school, then i'd say the diviners are more powerful than the evokers.

conjuration can be tough to give up though: in addition to most summon spells (except for ani dead) conjuration includes:
1 Grease
1 Mage Armor
2 Melf's Acid Arrow
2 Web
3 Flame Arrow
3 Ghost Armor
3 Stinking Cloud
4 Vitriolic Sphere
5 Cloudkill

mage armor, melf's, vitriolic & flame arrow are all pretty useful spells.

anyway i'm not 100% certain on this party yet:

1. deep gnome of massive weirdness and powergaming - developed along the lines of jupp's (arcane) decoy - a bunch of 1 off classes and 20 levels of illusionist.
2. drow cleric - plan for 17-18 levels of cleric then will go mage for more protective magics for hof.
3. human bard / druid - planning for a similar split, not sure if i'll take bard 1 first -> all the druid levels and come back to bard for hof, or if i should just go druid then worry about bard stuff later.
4. i may go pure drow sorc here.
5. i've been contemplating the pure drow diviner here - see also toon #6

6. the wildcard slot. as the party really lacks a presence is melee, i'm wondering about another drow build here, ftr 4, rogue 3 (or 5) wiz X, or maybe just going for 6-8 levels of ftr, then start adding wiz levels. due to the con penalty this will never be a really big a big meatshield, alas.

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looking at it there are too many drow on the dancefloor, normally i'd of used a mix in of teifling, asimar etc, but i wanted to really put sr to the test. also may be too many wiz addins - right now the plan is for 3 lv 20 wizards and one in the 10+ range (alongside of a 30 sorc) - feels like too much of a good thing - may redirect #6 into some kind of warrior priest.

I get Exeutioners Eyes on my DG decoy/tank and it's the only saving grace for the divination school but my DG tank/decoy alone suffices to provide it. DC doesn't matter on that one and since I lean more on the blasting side to get mobs down those 4 level 9 slots on that one are enough for me.

So let's take a closer look at the other spells you mentioned which an Evoker loses:

Grease: It's okish but nothing a good old level 3 Slow Spell cannot do better especially since Transmutation got a nifty +4 DC from GSF:Transmtation which Grease cannot. No Conjuration spell can get it actually.

Mage Armor/Ghost Armor: Shield is better most of the time for self protection only it has a shorter duration. If I need Mage Armor on other chars it can be usually provided by my Sorc Spellsword and/or my DG decoy/tank.
And at spell level 4 you can get Spirit Armor which provides the best AC of all armor spells anyway making Mage Armor/Ghost Armor obsolete.

Melf's Acid Arrow: There is still the Scorcher and Geedles. Also Snillocs. Albeit Melfs does more overall damage, the damage comes quite slow. It takes three to four rounds until it dealt more damage than for example Snillocs. And Snilloc's is AoE damage as well.

Web/Stinking Cloud: I dislike long lasting party unfriendly spells intensly. Again the missing GSF: Conjuration makes this spell much easier to resist than for example Hold person, Slow, Sleep, Charm, etc.

Vitriolic Sphere: There ar more than enough other potent blasting spells
in the game that one less of it is barey of any issue. The best you lose is actually Flame Arrow which is one level lower and a very good single target spell which deals a very high amount of fire damage.

Cloudkill: Again long lasting AoE spell which is party unfriendly. Is strong when you first get it but later and especially in HoF mode nothing get's killed by it and it will justtake some 1d10 damage per round.
While it certainly kill something at some point it's painfully slow.

And I cannot stress enough hat spells without GSF are noticably weaker and get resisted quite often.
That's also why I ditch Colour Spray at some point since there is no GSF:Illusion feat in the game either.

True, I forgot about the Diviner losing "only" Conjuration. Then again I role play even when power playing and actually the additional spell slots should be available only for your chosen school and I stick to that like I did when I played D&D Pen&Paper wise with my friends.

But if you have no qualms about abusing Biowares mistake sure, go ahead and take the Diviner it's of the same strength in that case.
Not that in a blasting heavy party one less arcane caster who cannot cast Executioners Eyes is a big deal.

And yes, taking Tiefling over Drow is perfectly viable and since the elemental feats stack with the tiefling resistances you can get some really nice 10 resists on all important schools wich are fire, cold and lightning. Acid is rarely of any issue, those other 3 elemental types are much more common.

[koz-ivan]

for the most part i agree on the conjuration spells, that being said:

grease, the cloud spells & web are pretty much the fundamentals of the "sticky death" strategy which is great at locking a large number of enemies in place and leaving them vulnerable to missile & spell attacks from the party. alas.

i'll miss flame arrow & vit sphere & melf's acid, nice focused direct damage. c'est la vie.

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my group is in the process of finishing the goblin warrens, my non ecl druid is level 6 (in a party of 6) i botched at least one targos quest and didn't farm any xp in the battles leading up to the bridge.

this party got the fireball scroll pretty much right on time, a smaller party or a lower ecl'd wizard would have had some delay there.

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funny side note: just figured out that wizards don't get simple missile weapon feats - so much for my plan to run against type, my wizard was using a stack of darts for most of the early game.

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on drow:

i'm still not totally sold on these guys, especially as the backbone of a party. the party i selected isn't supermegapowerful right out of the gate, the con penalty, the ecl penalty, and even lightblindness are significant drawbacks in the early stage. i've seen some spells fail at them due to sr, so that is nice.

on the party in general...

the decoy is still really raw, he almost never gets hit, but when he does - it hurts there isn't a lot of meat there to soak damage.

the pally / cleric - nice combo but is really stat intensive (still developing)

druid - went pure druid, so far so good, animal empathy & wildshape have been surprisingly effective, has some decent attack spells & nice buffs. the poor physical stats make her nothing much in straight up combat she is equally poor with missile & melee weapons. but that isn't the role i wanted for her, she is buffs, support spells, voice of the party - and no complaints there.

drow cleric - starting to rock & roll, dreadmaster + gsf enchantment, bow as a primary weapon. nice, aside from being a little slow to develop.

drow sorc - development here really slow, he will be good, but needs more time.

drow wizard - gsf evocation in place makes for some effective orbs and now fireballs. btw failure to scribe scrolls? i totally forgot about that - and it popped up more than i'd of wanted. yay quicksave.

[Sykar]

Well Drow levels more slowly compared to Tiefling so getting a Tiefling as I said is perfectly fine and they synergize well with the elemental feats.

Most of the power of a character comes mainly from the right selection of feats, stats, class combinations (or lack of) and most importantly items and levels.

That being said, Drow not only get overall +4 to all stats freely dividable but also +2 will saves and additionally +2 on saves against enchantment spells, they are immune to sleep which helps especially at early stages of the game, albeit other elves do get those benefits as well.
My Drow Evoker for example with 20 Dex, 16 Con and 12 Wisdom has terrific saves on top of his SR so enemies have a really hard time affecting him with spells and if I'd get Charisma to 3 I could raise wisdom to 15 even but that's 1point better will save which doesn't do too much so can roleplay a bit making a surely drow wizard instead of a completely irritating bastard.
My drow priestess has 20 Dex and 18 Wisdom so with those drow bonus on enchantment spells and her SF she is close to never affected by enchantment spells.
On top of that faerie fire which really helps against high AC opponents.

Of course such benefits must come with a drawback and in this case they acquire power slower than a tiefling, aasimar or of course non ECL races.

Therefore the question must be do I need these additional defences for my party or can I go without? If you can go without SR you are better off of course with tieflings, aasimars and of course all other non ECL races which acquire power more quickly at the cost of SR, worse saves, worse DC and spells per day by 1 for all but tiefling.

If you are using a druid I really sugest you use the Weimar Mod with the improved shapeshifting component at least. It really makes Shapeshifting useful throughout the game.

[koz-ivan]

i usually avoid weimer's "rebalance" type mods, as they imho swing too far in the other direction. plus i was already using the additional druid spells part of the mod, adding both seemed like overkill.

i'm not looking for my druid to be a complete melee powerhouse, wildshape is just a small part of who she is.