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Rogues suck so here is what I would do...

One problem is that disarming chests is useless with bashing. Therefore

1. If there is a 95% chance to open the chest then the loot category of the chest increases

2. All non armor/weapon/gold contents of bashed chests is destroyed.

Rogues special items. fighter gets better weapons, and casters get new spells. Rogue needs something.

1. Add more tasty special jewelry at thieves shops only sold to rogues. By the end the rogue only items (unlocked by third tier ascension) should be head and shoulders against what you have. And all along nice jewelry in proportion to where you are. Custer Mansion is pretty hard so the pieces should be pretty nice. Skuldoon and rogue 2nd tier ascension should be even better. And many of them should be situational items you swap in which overcomes the fact that you may only have 4 rings and 2 amulets.

Another problem is that thieving skills are not that useful. The only reason to take sneak is to take stealing, almost except if you summon. Sneak basicly exists for stealing other than summons but thats ok.

1. Increase backstab damage by double. If you actually pull this off it should be major.

2. Increase gold stealing drop by double. The only reason for this skill endgame is to get urgoths to drop heavy armor, but at least until then thief can earn more gold.

Rebalancing of basic rogue...

1. Learning bonus of general skills

Rebalancing of Trickster...

1. Rune Magic learning bonus added, kinda an occultist

Rebalancing of Cabalist... Ok cabalist has drain life. Whats that for? Nether spray?

1. Add arcane magic learning bonus

Rebalancing of Hunter...

Ok this is in light of Hawkeye not working in CE (I think)

1. Diabolic/throwing skill of poison arrow gained. Chance for poison like poison cloud. Chance scales with skill. Crazy expensive skill. It doesn't create a cloud, the effect should be that of if a vampire bites you and you shake and scream sorta. I know that its still not as good as regular poison cloud probably, but at least its not something you have to cast each time and use ketals.

Rebalancing of Ranger Lord

1. Hawkeye removed (if its bugged). Celestial Magic Learning bonus. Poison arrow learning bonus.


Ninja Lord has always been cool, but they get love too....

Budoka

1. Parry learning bonus, weapons skills learning bonus, archery learning bonus, sneak learning bonus.

Ninja Lord

1. Learning bonus to backstab

2. Iron will diabolical skill

[moderators I forgot GB policy on double posts. Some forums allow since no edit.]

Note I need to know if it is possible to mod dungeon lords. If it is I will figure this out. But this is not existing. Edit you can do this with the editor (search this forum for mods).

The way you do it is to edit the character at each time you want to allocate skillpoints to a skill. You can edit the classes. For example: You have a rogue/hunter/sorceror/ranger lord with 4 learning bonuses to nether. Here is what you do. Edit classes to wizard/cabalist which in vanilla also has 4 learning bonuses. I had to edit my changes due to not having a template for x2 (or 3) parry learning bonus as you can't stack 3x paladin. So I will try to edit.

I think some of my changes in first post are hard to implement with a mod. So here we go....


There would also be new class requirements which I will think about. [edited in]


Trying to give rogue something that can help him through the beginning dungeon and power into galadryns horn etc. Rogue doesn't get class until custers manor or 2nd tier until skuldoon! I thought of general skills but those don't have punch.

Therefore the rogue is now the outcast. Gains nether magic and starts with the fear spell 1 batwings and 8 dead hair. [edit I am not sure how to use the items editor... You might not get a nether spell unless it drops ] Loses thrown weapons. [edit too much a PITA to keep track of.. won't make much difference and outcasts could be tricky, ranged] Which don't fit an outcast. Thievery does. Identify does as some affinity for appraisement as a thief. Theoretically an outcast can grind for 50 dead hair and 50 bats. But at level 5 in the shack the dungeon is trivial anyhow unless all points in intelligence or something odd and foolish. Even granting that fear on every large goblin pack would not have an insane effect greater than a crystal of peace with access to studded leather.

Still its the nature of nether that you can grind for available ketals. Fighter should be dependent on gear and casters on mages and crystals. Nether magic does not deal direct damage usually and they do not have an armor bonus. As an alternative I could give summon rat and 10 - 15 bone dust. Though my first plan would allow the user to grind to taste. Or if a newb they would at least have something to do other than not understand the lockpicking game! The nether flavor is that if there is a chest drop of a nether spell or troll eye it is not that valuable until ingredients are gathered. So the nether caster is flexible but not swift to benefit from an armor drop or book crystal.

The outcast has a little too much opening utility although will not have access to many nether spells untill Rhiana and thats only a variety if a mage. But mage should add as much benefit as fighter perhaps adding chainmail and a voodoo mace or adept adding crystals of peace, solar ray, and chainmail. Still the outcast at least has a combat skill.

Therefore the rogue loses learning bonus thievery at opening though keeps sneak and steal. [edit there is no way to keep sneak steal without a thievery learning bonus because there is no template... well you could do just sneak with a marauder template, but I am going to keep things simple and keep the thief skills...]

I think this is good because I don't think the only virtue of a class should be that it can shave skillpoints. Often the chests don't drop anything they with no learning bonus may capitalize on. A new player should have something shiny to do other than open chests and pling away on slimes with a crappy throwing knife.

A ranger lord is an outcast because in the wilds. A cabalist and ninja are clearly outcasts. Nether also makes sure a summon for backstab.
[edit: I couldn't change the text to read outcast and occultist]


The path of the Ranger:

Hunter gains a learning bonus for nether magic. On rational of tribal connections with demigoths and witches etc.. Another bonus for a summon just when they meet the skuldoon alchemist.

New requirement for all second tier outcasts is nether 4

Ranger lord gains alchemy and celestial magic. The celestial magic can be thought of as druid magic (or shaman for undead). Neutral as in Dungeons and Dragons. Not evil or good, outcast from society of evil and good. Also new skill alchemy from familiarity with creatures. Ranger needs even more summons than just for backstab to do archery. In vanilla no summons! So no Marauder for example. [might have to edit in a divine intervention crystal]

New Requirement for ranger lord is 8 nether and celestial 3

The path of the Ninja Lord.

Budoka: More of a precursor to a master of fighting arts. Parry prereq is hard to meet, thus a parry learning bonus. [edit no template for x2 parry so nope] Also a weapons learning bonus and an archery learning bonus. And a scout learning bonus. You will see why a weapons in Ninja.

All outcasts have nether 4 requirement added (2nd tier)

Ninja: They should be able to wield Japanese two handed swords and kinda be a weapon master. Master of parry too. Parry learning bonus. [edit nope see budoka] Weapon learning bonus. New skill Heavy weapons.

Ninja lord already has high requirements but we add Scout 10

The path of the Cabalist.

The Trickster: is changed to sort of an occultist. Gains a learning bonus in runed magic.

All outcasts have nether 4 requirement added (2nd tier)

Cabalist: Cabalist has drain life but few direct damage spells. Needs them to be viable with combos with fighter class. Gains arcane magic learning bonus and new skill scribe.

New Requirement: Rune Magic 3 Arcane 4


Balance: Ok I didn't want to make a balanced outcast. This game already has little balance. Compare a wizard to a stargazer. Or a war witch to a warlord. Plus it was difficult to find a medium ground with limited options.

The third tier is balanced. A cabalist is easier to attain than a warwitch with less benefit. Although clearly a cabalist a nice jack of all trades. No heavy armor and weapons and shield like a war witch. Less casting bonuses. A ninja is not as much a caster and compared to a shaolei master or a kenjasi they are not that awesome. But they are quite cool. Ranger lord is intended to be a summoner archer backstabber. It all fits together in a theme as do the other two.

The real horror is too much utility. A ranger lord battle mage might be insane. A cabalist enchanter. Ninja with battlemage or paladin. But dungeon lords isn't supposed to be a huge challenge unless you are new. The game is about kicking ass.

Another example of horror is the powerful second tier rogue classes with power third tier from other disciplines. Again power is not a bad thing and sorceror, paladin, battle mage, and so forth are also quite powerful. Comparing a occultist and an enchanter I guess the cabalist wins. We could tweak this further and remove some things.

Balance is not a strong side but fun and theme are. And mechanics of play in conjunction with theme.




What do you think?

if u think sorcerer/paladin is powerful wait till u eventually try a mage/adept/enchantress/battlemage/warwitch with 40 arcane magic 10k blast nova's and 20 drain life(skill).....

needless to say i was way op and could faceroll everything like killing the last boss with 3 casts of cataclysm. after playing that class i had to relearn how not to die when i tried to do other classes . so i think i might try an adept/fighter/celestial/imperial/stargazer and use the best heavy pole arm i find as i havent ever used them

I am playing with a figher/adept/enchantress/paladin. Next is warwitch but I just killed Okata. Should be strong. The solar rays are pretty good, I like those spells as they are beams that raster and you can run and jump while still hitting them. Or switch from target to target knocking them back.

What do you think of my changes to rogue as outcast? I wish I could edit character classes with the editor.

Claudius wrote:I am playing with a figher/adept/enchantress/paladin. Next is warwitch but I just killed Okata. Should be strong. The solar rays are pretty good, I like those spells as they are beams that raster and you can run and jump while still hitting them. Or switch from target to target knocking them back.

What do you think of my changes to rogue as outcast? I wish I could edit character classes with the editor.

i like the idea of starting with a nether spell as the goblins for a plain mage at the beginning can be infuriating. also the celestial magic lightning does more damage than solar rays. p.s. since your using the editor why not give yourself summon beasts, haunts, or giants? fiends are alright but they overuse their fire even though their melee is stronger.

i dont know if you have tried yet but if you cast a minion that is the same as the mob your attacking they wont attack each other they just engage in a starring contest:laugh:. for me this has worked with wolves, rats, beasts, skeletons, and the guardian at the arena.

Terran, my idea is to make the rogue classes more powerful. The rogue is turned into the outcast and gains nether magic. The second and third tier rogue classes also gain learning bonuses. This is accomplished by manipulating with the editor. For example when you level up your outcast and add nether magic you must save your game, edit in sorceror instead of rogue, reload and then level your nether. You don't level arcane as a sorceror, because the idea is to have game balance not to be powerful. If you really wanted you could make yourself a wizard, deathlord, crusader, warwitch, ninja lord at the sewer, but that would not be fun. This is why I don't add the fiend at level 1.

When I was playing this game I always ended-up:

1. with pretty much the same character by the end.

2. by-passing the sewers as a means of advancement/treasure collection.


Both really make any notion of a particular class redundant. It then becomes more about planning for learning bonuses to leverage higher skills in particular skills. (..and of course treasure sifting to get the items you want.)

Thats interesting scott. I always role play the character and build the skills that he has learning bonuses. I also build the attributes based on race. Its actually somewhat effective because you pay cheaper costs. Part in parcel with that I don't grind I just run through maybe with a little exploration or doing errands like visiting rhiana or grymlock to buy things.

Claudius wrote:Thats interesting scott. I always role play the character and build the skills that he has learning bonuses. I also build the attributes based on race. Its actually somewhat effective because you pay cheaper costs. Part in parcel with that I don't grind I just run through maybe with a little exploration or doing errands like visiting rhiana or grymlock to buy things.

Yeah, I guess I power game it.

After a *very* short while the sewers becomes depressingly repetitive. That's what really started me on that path.

I grind early (after getting out of the sewers - for cash and exp.), and again later in the game on the North West island (for exp. only.. and also for fun).


What I meant by "pretty much the same character" is that most of the "power" is in the stats and in magic skills. I've played each of the 3rd tier classes - so there are differences, but for the most part those differences aren't that different unless self-imposed. One such self-imposed build was a Cabalist using Nether magic only. Still, that was more of an exception to most of my builds which usually contained all 3 forms of magic (rarely using Rune magic).

Additionally the quests (except a few class specific quests) are the same each play-through.

I really like the dynamic of melee in Dungeon Lords though - probably my favorite in the 3rd person genre. Polearms and Ninjutsu (in particular). Even AI in this game is pretty good.