Need Advice for a new player

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:59 am

I am new to D&D. I have played similar games as player characters, but never delved into the DM aspect. Now I want to play D&D and I am interested in being a DM.

I have some issues though.

1. I am new and it seems a DM needs to absorb a ridiculous amount of info.
2. I don't really have any friends that are into this kind of thing.

I recently downloaded a PDF full of 2nd edition AD&D books. In fact, I was blown away by how much material there is. There are over 6,000 pages of information, including 14 books, one for every class.

When I read the Players Guide, I was overwhelmed by how much there was to absorb. I then realized that trying to be a DM would be much harder than I anticipated. In fact, it seems impossible without actually having lots of experience playing every class.

I don't really have any friends that are into it either. It really is a bummer. Even if I could be a DM, I don't have people to play with anyways.

Anyways... I'll get to the point. Does anyone have any suggestions? Any ways I can get around not having a group? Should I not pursue being a DM until I've experienced being a PC of every class first?

I really am intrigued by this game, it's really a pity.

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:08 am

I recently started as a DM for a small group of friends that i drew into the game with the help of a won bet. You don't need to have experienced the game as a PC. It can help a bit predict the actions of the PC's but it is not a must.
A good starting point are stories of the novels or pc games. You can use some ideas from them as your first story hook. At the momen my Group is trying to assemble the Flail of Ages from Baldur's Gate.

One thing you might want to look at are the newer Editions of D&D. The 4e is in my opinion better for new players and DM's as the rules have been simplified in some aspects and I have the feeling that it is a bit more forgiving for earlier mistakes.

The fact that you have no players at the moment is a hinderance but you can begin with chosing a starting point, gather information about places and monsters (Monster Manual, Manual of the Planes, Dungeon Master's Guide 1-3 for example), then begin to create first characters (chose a main villian/evil group, allies for the group, VIP's). Don't begin with stats and abilities but with a story, their motives etc. Enemy encounters are a bit more tricky as you don't have a group to measure the enemys with.
Make notes, think about the places where the charakters will be (how do they look? Atmosphere?), think about the informations your party could get with various religion, dungeoneering etc. rolls. A dm needs a large amount of fantasy.

Some examples can also be found in the Dungeon Magazines or in most campaign books. But those are just some ideas and samples that the dm has to flesh out.

At the moment my campaign consist of 10 A4 pages with informations, notes, traps and even misinformation for the players. The biggest challenge I encountered so far are fighting encounters. You think the group should be able to handle the sucubus and her two servants but suddenly the group fails some rolls and they nearly get wiped out. In this situations, especially in the beginning, you must improvise a bit. Helping the group a bit without them noticing. Nothing to flashy but as the dm it is not your job to destroy the group but to present them with a fair, but challenging adventure.

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:47 am

Thylein wrote:I recently started as a DM for a small group of friends that i drew into the game with the help of a won bet. You don't need to have experienced the game as a PC. It can help a bit predict the actions of the PC's but it is not a must.
A good starting point are stories of the novels or pc games. You can use some ideas from them as your first story hook. At the momen my Group is trying to assemble the Flail of Ages from Baldur's Gate.

One thing you might want to look at are the newer Editions of D&D. The 4e is in my opinion better for new players and DM's as the rules have been simplified in some aspects and I have the feeling that it is a bit more forgiving for earlier mistakes.

The fact that you have no players at the moment is a hinderance but you can begin with chosing a starting point, gather information about places and monsters (Monster Manual, Manual of the Planes, Dungeon Master's Guide 1-3 for example), then begin to create first characters (chose a main villian/evil group, allies for the group, VIP's). Don't begin with stats and abilities but with a story, their motives etc. Enemy encounters are a bit more tricky as you don't have a group to measure the enemys with.
Make notes, think about the places where the charakters will be (how do they look? Atmosphere?), think about the informations your party could get with various religion, dungeoneering etc. rolls. A dm needs a large amount of fantasy.

Some examples can also be found in the Dungeon Magazines or in most campaign books. But those are just some ideas and samples that the dm has to flesh out.

At the moment my campaign consist of 10 A4 pages with informations, notes, traps and even misinformation for the players. The biggest challenge I encountered so far are fighting encounters. You think the group should be able to handle the sucubus and her two servants but suddenly the group fails some rolls and they nearly get wiped out. In this situations, especially in the beginning, you must improvise a bit. Helping the group a bit without them noticing. Nothing to flashy but as the dm it is not your job to destroy the group but to present them with a fair, but challenging adventure.

Oh, I understand that. In fact, I have already got what I consider a really epic story and world in mind. You see, I am also a writer. The most in depth story I have written was called The Rise of Odisugas. While the story itself revolved around a sort of "Dragon Apocalypse", there was a "side plot" that referred to a land named Dorgladea. The basic story is:

- Dorgladea is a land enslaved by humans. The human empire is called Seratoutia [Pron: Sair-Uh-Too-Shuh] [I know, the name is sort of overdoing it, but I used it for so long, it would feel wrong to change it]. Dorgladea wasn't just a land of linear races. The humans enslaved Goblins, Dwarves, and Elves here. They worked in mines [Dwarves mostly for that], worked on and maintained farms [Elves mostly for this], and were often imported into the mainland of Seratoutia to build their structures.

In order to keep this land tamed, the Seratoutians sent families to live there in order to govern them. After awhile, the families realized what they were ordered to do was unjust and revolted. They [Much like the American revolution] organized a rebellion which consisted of an army made of up Goblins, Elves, Dwarves, and Humans.

As the war raged on, a hero made a name for himself. An Elf named Llorianas had [Much like George Washington] risen to power and became the persona which the rebellion would follow.

Anyways, as long as my summary may be, I need to stop there. Basically, the heroes aren't participating in this rebellion, although a "Prequal" quest sounds enticing when I get good at DMing. They are actually adventuring in Dorgladea almost 30 years after Dorgladea had won the rebellion.

I desire to also play as a character while I am DMing. Remember, I am new to D&D, so I desire to play it as much as I desire to create it. However, my characters role will act much more like an NPC than a PC. My character will be Llorianas. Although his deeds are already great, his power is still weak compared to the fate that lies ahead of the him and the PC's.

He will not be much stronger than the PC's at all... if not equal. He will progress just like them, the only difference is, he will be very enigmatic. That proves as a tool for me and the players to use to sate curiosity

Here is what I plan to tell my new players

My character could be seen as a door into which your curiosity about my realm can be sated. If you ask him questions,
he may tell you a thing or two, or he may not. He will most likely be vague, yet even his vague information can strike your
curiosity.

It's simply a way for them to communicate with me through my character instead of just me as a person or DM, pulling them more into the story.

My character will not be a crutch. Not only is he almost just as weak as them, but he is not always there. He's kind of like Gandalf lol. He doesn't actually hold nobility in Dorgladea. He is held as the founding father of Dorgladea, but wasn't up to be a ruler. He serves no one, only the land itself.

That being said, I've got a REALLY elaborate story and plot in mind that seems to have endless possibilities for quests and campaigns.

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My problem is that, after reading the Players Manual, there is so much that i need to memorize to be a good DM. For instance, every class has many different bonuses [For instance Elves get stealth bonuses] and even some detriments. Without knowing all of these, I risk not playing the game correctly and I don't want to be a sloppy DM.

I was also overwhelmed by things like the equipment section of the manual. It listed this seemingly 30 page long list of items and services and how much they should cost. I figured this should have been touched on in the Equipment book though, not the players manual. The more I read into the manual, the more I desired to just shut it and give up on the idea of being a DM. I was trying to adsorb too much and after awhile, I just wanted to rush it.
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Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:52 am

donjone wrote:what do u mean i am not getting ur point what u want to say

Oh, I didn't mean to insinuate that you didn't. I was just providing further insight and elaborating on my issue.

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:53 am

The whole class and race bonuses are summed up on the character sheet of every character (At the end of each session I copy the sheet of every player). Regarding the items, dont take the whole list. Basic equipment should only be needed in the beginning and after that look at the players and how they play their character and then chose single items out of the lists and make them drops, treasures or add them to a merchants stock. If you try to include everything into one campaign you and your players will get overwhelmed by the information overflow.

If you already have a good storyline to play with remeber to split it up into chapters. Players need to have a goal in front of them... something to look forward to achieving. You can have a large meta plot but there must be smaller steps in between so they feel like they are doing something.

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:25 am

Thylein wrote:The whole class and race bonuses are summed up on the character sheet of every character (At the end of each session I copy the sheet of every player). Regarding the items, dont take the whole list. Basic equipment should only be needed in the beginning and after that look at the players and how they play their character and then chose single items out of the lists and make them drops, treasures or add them to a merchants stock. If you try to include everything into one campaign you and your players will get overwhelmed by the information overflow.

If you already have a good storyline to play with remeber to split it up into chapters. Players need to have a goal in front of them... something to look forward to achieving. You can have a large meta plot but there must be smaller steps in between so they feel like they are doing something.

Yeah, I guess I understand that. I just don't want to create my first campaign and neglect something important on accident because I decided to go too simple. It almost sounds like I should make up my own gear.

Also, I don't really understand how armor class works [I'm reading 2nd Ed]. It says that +10 is worst and -10 is best, but I didn't ever reach a point in the book where it explained how that figures into combat.

As for a story line, I've got it all figured out. There are really 3 tiers of play. The Beginning, The epic body, and the epic finale. The beginning starts out with you exploring Dorgladea, while the epic body introduces your character to almost the rest of the world... and the epic finale introduces you to your final goal. This is where your characters learn who and what they are truly up against [The three demons of the "apocalypse" and the great demon Gorgalath]. [Sort of like how FF7 works. Beginning = Midgar, Epic Body = World map introduction, Epic finale = acquiring the Highwind]The beginning will be 20% of the adventure, the epic body will be 50% of the adventure, and the epic finale will be 30% of the adventure.

I'm not sure how many quests each one will take up. It really depends on how much material I come up with and am satisfied with. I will ofc have side quests and "per-improvised" side quests in case the characters decide to deviate from the plot.

Like I said, I'm more worried about the actual construction of the game. Also, you say that the character sheets list all of these "bonuses"? Which sheets? Are they available for 2nd Ed?

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:38 am

I can really only stress the point that the 4e rules are far easier to use than the old 2e. I never used 2e rules outside of computer games.

This is a blank character sheet.
http://dnd4.com/wp-content/uploads/2008 ... heet4e.pdf

Didn't find any for the second edition.

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:02 am

Thylein wrote:I can really only stress the point that the 4e rules are far easier to use than the old 2e. I never used 2e rules outside of computer games.

This is a blank character sheet.
http://dnd4.com/wp-content/uploads/2008 ... heet4e.pdf

Didn't find any for the second edition.

Eh... I have to do with what I have and preferably, I would like to stay oldschool anyways. What I have are 6,000 pages of material based on 2nd Ed, so that's what I'm going to roll with.

3 and 4e just seem too over-done and glorified. I like the oldschool feeling of the first 2 editions more. They have more of a true medieval feeling to them, at least from what I've read.

I understand that 4e would be better to teach me the basics, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:37 am

If you stay with 2e be prepared that some things don't have real rules for them. You might come to a situation where you have to improvise some things.

Regarding 2e specifics I can't really help you because I read them after I read the 3.5 rule sets and I was like "Oh my god. Good thing they have refined some of those things."
Personally I don't think that the second edition feels more oldschool but more clumpsy and extreme regarding the complexity of some of its rules, especially if one of your players wants to play as a more exotic species like a goblin or kobold. As you want to have goblins in your world a look at the later rule sets might help with some of the issues.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:07 am

Thylein wrote:If you stay with 2e be prepared that some things don't have real rules for them. You might come to a situation where you have to improvise some things.

Regarding 2e specifics I can't really help you because I read them after I read the 3.5 rule sets and I was like "Oh my god. Good thing they have refined some of those things."
Personally I don't think that the second edition feels more oldschool but more clumpsy and extreme regarding the complexity of some of its rules, especially if one of your players wants to play as a more exotic species like a goblin or kobold. As you want to have goblins in your world a look at the later rule sets might help with some of the issues.

Just want to +1 this. Most of the praise for 2nd Edition comes from people who are fused with it, and refuse to see the benefits of later editions.
Look at the tables of the abilities: STR, DEX... See all that random number spewing? Now compare this to ease of 3.5. (12 gives a +1 bonus, 14 a +2, etc.)
Also, to emphasise the quote above: When talking about what happens when a class based on light armour suffers when wearing heavy armour, the rules go like this: "It's up to the DM." However, there are hard & fast rules about which undewear a Paladin can wear. (This isn't sarcasm, sadly.)

Another advantage of 3.5 & 4E: You'll have a rather easy time finding online chat/forum based games for those.

The basics of 3.5/Pathfinder (a variant) are available for free, and legally so.

If you persist in 2nd Edition, IM galraen, he has the most experience in it. You might also find experienced people at Brilliant Gameologists | Play Like You Have To

Lemmus · Post by **Lemmus** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:42 am

I have a question for you, Blockinlick. Given that you are running your own world, not a published D&D setting, and given that you have already noticed that D&D is a needlessly complex system, especially in the earlier editions, why are running the game in D&D?

I'm not going to advise you to switch to game X (I have my preference, but I recognise that it's MY preference, not necessarily better), but there are a lot of systems out there which are more conducive to modification.

Have you considered D20? Fudge? The Hero system? GURPS?

All of these are designed as generic rules systems which can be adapted to any campaign you want. D&D, ultimately, is designed to support a specific type of game world.

The advantage of using published material is that everyone, players and GM, know exactly how something works and can predict the results of their actions accordingly. When you create your own world you throw a lot of that out the window; your elves are not Forgotten Realm's elves, they have a different history, different place names, and likely different skills and magic. A player in your campaign cannot pick up a copy of the Player's Handbook to Elves and know how things work. So the main advantage of D&D is lost- the published material no longer provides everyone with an even field of knowledge.

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:20 pm

Lemmus wrote:I have a question for you, Blockinlick. Given that you are running your own world, not a published D&D setting, and given that you have already noticed that D&D is a needlessly complex system, especially in the earlier editions, why are running the game in D&D?

I'm not going to advise you to switch to game X (I have my preference, but I recognise that it's MY preference, not necessarily better), but there are a lot of systems out there which are more conducive to modification.

Have you considered D20? Fudge? The Hero system? GURPS?

All of these are designed as generic rules systems which can be adapted to any campaign you want. D&D, ultimately, is designed to support a specific type of game world.

The advantage of using published material is that everyone, players and GM, know exactly how something works and can predict the results of their actions accordingly. When you create your own world you throw a lot of that out the window; your elves are not Forgotten Realm's elves, they have a different history, different place names, and likely different skills and magic. A player in your campaign cannot pick up a copy of the Player's Handbook to Elves and know how things work. So the main advantage of D&D is lost- the published material no longer provides everyone with an even field of knowledge.

I've already given this much thought and I decided I wanted to stick to D&D as close as I could. In fact, all of that which will apply to D&D, I will try to apply to my world. "Another D&D world" as you might say.

The only real issue that I have with D&D is that the elves are small creatures. When I think elves, I think JRR Tolkien, not North Pole lol. I think of characters like Elrond and Legolas. I also often think of how elves are represented in Magic the Gathering, as more of intelligent mystical creatures than demi-humans.

The way I try to get around this was to say that Elves from Dorgladea or slightly taller than your average breed. That's a crappy solution, but I'm just not into playing Elves who are ALL smaller than I am [...and I am 5'6 120 lbs]. It's just not what I have in mind.

I want to use D&D almost strictly because it has a well defined and proven system. I do have my own game system in mind, but I want to play D&D for awhile to brush up and learn a few things. Perhaps I'll like D&D enough to not want to create my own system.

I have played other games. One I think was called "Mage". I didn't really like it all that much. None of them have that classic medieval feeling to them, they all seem "modernized" to me.

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Also, who said that you cannot make up your own world in D&D? From my understanding of reading the DMG and Players Manual, the creators encourage you to do such things and adjust the game to your customization.

They specifically state that it's yours to create your own worlds. I never imagined D&D as a "Oh it's not on the D&D world map, it's not D&D" game. From what my understand, it's simply a system to create a balanced and fun game system for fantasy role playing. There is no world map or even world that you must confine yourself to.

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:10 pm

The Elves in D&D are not small. Often a bit smaller than a human but taller then dwarves and halflings. In 4e elves are most often as tall as a human. In the 4e you can also chose the Eladrin who can even be a bit taller than humans. Your remark about elves beeing demi-human is something I don't understand. Elves have always been magical adept. The mystical beeings you seek sound extremly like the Eladrin of the 4e edition. Powerful, otherwordly beeings who most of the time can hardly be called human.

And regarding the set rules. 2e is not known for beeing well defined.

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:57 pm

Thylein wrote:The Elves in D&D are not small. Often a bit smaller than a human but taller then dwarves and halflings. In 4e elves are most often as tall as a human. In the 4e you can also chose the Eladrin who can even be a bit taller than humans. Your remark about elves beeing demi-human is something I don't understand. Elves have always been magical adept. The mystical beeings you seek sound extremly like the Eladrin of the 4e edition. Powerful, otherwordly beeings who most of the time can hardly be called human.

And regarding the set rules. 2e is not known for beeing well defined.

Yeah, in 2e, all Races that aren't human are Demi-Human. Dwarves, Gnomes, Elves, Halflings, all demi-human. The elves average at only about 5'0-5'5 feet tall and weigh less than 100 lbs. That was really disappointing for me to read.

It does sound like 4e has something to my taste, but the bad things I've heard about it make me not even want to consider it. The people I talk to say it's too combat based and the role playing is much less expressed.

I for one do prefer an in depth combat system, for that's half of the fun, but if you take away most of the role playing, it just ruins it. I can only admire my characters valor in battle if his journey is an interesting and charming one.

Also, the biggest thing that turns me away from 4e is that I've read about some of the more "special" classes. For instance, I hate the idea of Dragonborn characters, even as NPCs and existing entirely. It just doesn't fit my vision of what medieval fantasy is.

My impression of 4e is that they appear to be transforming the world into something more like Magic the Gathering than your classic dungeon crawling medieval fantasy. As much as I love MtG, I don't want D&D to be synonymous with it. Since Wizards now owns both D&D and MtG, it's no surprise though.

My idea of medieval fantasy is portrayed perfectly in the original 1st Ed book cover. There is a warrior in armor made of metals and furs swinging a claymore at a massive fire breathing dragon. What I'm trying to say is, I want something closer to LotR, NOT Magic the Gathering.

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Don't get me wrong when I complain that becoming a DM on 2e is daunting. I actually am into it. I've been reading both the Players Manual and DMG and like most of what I read. I am eager to create my own fantasy using their system. It sounds just like what I have in mind, except ofc my indifference on elves.

It's just that the sheer amount of information they require you to memorize is discouraging. For instance, every class that isn't human has a different level limit for every class. That alone is hard to memorize. Hell, all of the tables they throw at you are hard to memorize.

I don't want to create a campaign for months and realize I accidentally let my friends Elf warrior exceed the maximum level he can achieve. He would be pissed off because I would have no choice but to nerf his character.

It would really help, I guess, to make notes of these and keep them at my side, but I would have to keep referencing them.

One thing I think I am going to do is make it the players responsibility to memorize/record and take advantage of what special abilities their race has. If the players is playing an elf, but doesn't utilize his "stealth" bonus, I'm not going to say anything, that's his stupidity.

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:18 am

I suggest you take a look at the DM guide of the 4e just to make a comparison. 4e is only then combat based if you make it that way and the roleplaying is as indebt as they player and the dm make it. And regarding the parts that you don't like. Don't use them. Make a list for the players what races and classes are allowed.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:13 am

I have to point out that the out-of-combat support in 4E is very small. Skills work with scaling numbers (kind of like level scaling in Oblivion) and non-combat abilities for characters are few and far in between.
3.5 is where the good stuff is at.

The standard setting is very close to what you seem to envision, the rules are much better defined, they are more clear & consistent, but they also support great out of combat play, and your RP can be mroe readily backed up with mechanics, if necessary. It also has some other great settings, but from what I've read, I think you'll probably hate those with a passion.

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:32 pm

GawainBS wrote:I have to point out that the out-of-combat support in 4E is very small. Skills work with scaling numbers (kind of like level scaling in Oblivion) and non-combat abilities for characters are few and far in between.

See, this is the kind of stuff I keep hearing. The problem is, I don't have 6,000 pages for 3e, 3.5e, or 4e. I have 6,000 pages dedicated to 2e. Unless one of you has a PDF for me to download 3.5 or 4, I'm pretty much stuck with 2e.

Even if you did, I doubt the book set is quite as in depth or complete as the 2e one I have now. There is no book that I don't have pertaining to 2e lol.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:41 am

I gave you the links to the legally available free material for 3.5/Pathfinder. I can't give you free PDFs to the copyrighted stuff, but if you managed to find it for 2E, I don't think you'll have trouble finding it for 3.5/4E.
I wouldn't let sheer amount of pages make or break a deal: I found the 2nd Edition books I have to contain a lot of useless blathering on, which mostly culminates in "It's up to the DM to decide." If it's the fluff/story/setting you want, it's extremely easy to adapt. Hell, most of that got carried straight over to 3.5, IIRC.

Blockinlick · Post by **Blockinlick** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:16 am

GawainBS wrote:I gave you the links to the legally available free material for 3.5/Pathfinder. I can't give you free PDFs to the copyrighted stuff, but if you managed to find it for 2E, I don't think you'll have trouble finding it for 3.5/4E.
I wouldn't let sheer amount of pages make or break a deal: I found the 2nd Edition books I have to contain a lot of useless blathering on, which mostly culminates in "It's up to the DM to decide." If it's the fluff/story/setting you want, it's extremely easy to adapt. Hell, most of that got carried straight over to 3.5, IIRC.

lol yeah, after reading bits and pieces of every book at a time I have already realized this. I have actually become a lot less overhwhelmed after realizing that I don't have to read everything word for word and that half of the "blathering" I can just skim/skip until it gets to the point. Usually I can quickly tell when it's inevitably going to add up to "The DM decides".

I have decided to stick with 2e now. Now that I feel like I am understanding it better and confidently browsing it's contents, I already have a familiarity about it.

But one thing REALLY bothers me... Equipment doesn't have stats. The books talk about THAC0, Armor Class, and Damage steps, yet none of the equipment are given armor or damage values. That means I've got to balance it myself. I can do that, but I'd prefer to have a balanced list of mods to at least give me an idea for comparisons.

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:12 am

You could take a look at the item database of the Baldur's Gate computer games. It might need some tweeking but if I recal correctly they were made with a variant of the 2e.