Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:28 pm

I figured that it was probably best to open up a spot on the forums to discuss this, since the announcement threads get mixed up very quickly. I'm curious what people's reactions are.

Of course the details of what the Enhanced Edition will contain are sketchy, but at this stage I'm a little torn. It sounds like a lot of its key features have already been done by other mods. Tutu and BGT managed to port BG1 into the 2nd's engine very smoothly. Many mods have added numerous high-quality quests that did a great job at making the world a lot more alive. The banter packs for BG1 essentially made its NPCs as engaging as BG2's, and numerous other mods updated the games' AI and restored a bunch of cut content.

So part of me feels like a lot of the announced features of the Enhanced Edition are basically just an effort to reinvent the wheel. The new quests and content sounds interesting, but mods have ensured that there's never been a real lack of content for the game. Major changes to the game's graphics and interface might have been nice, but I feel like if they're expecting most mods to be compatible, I doubt that they'll be making extensive changes to the way the game works. Which is safe, I suppose, but also makes you wonder what the overall point is.

I may also lose some points for saying this, but I think I would have preferred it if they had updated the game to IWD2's semi-3rd edition ruleset. Because, let's be fair, 2nd edition rules are a little bizarre. Only humans dual-class, and everyone else can multiclass, for whatever reason. Attributes need to be very high to make any difference at all; the difference between 10 and 14 strength is minuscule; the whole THAC0 system and negative armor-class being better just gives me a headache trying to figure out; etc.. IWD2, I really felt, made the gameplay just a little more engaging, and I'd really have enjoyed seeing Baldur's Gate's story and characters with IWD2's gameplay and its challenges.

So in short, with the information we've been given, I have to say that I'm a little disappointed. It's better news than an iOS port, but until we learn a little more, I haven't really seen any reason to get very excited. I'm all for updating and re-releasing old classics, but I was hoping for something a little bit bigger.

I look forward to future information releases proving me wrong. I'm curious, though, in the meantime, if the rest of you feel the same way.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:43 pm

I, for one, am very excited by the news.

Yes, of course the modding community has done much to keep the games alive.... for those who **already** know and love them.
Indeed, one of my first thoughts when I read the announcement was "BG Tutu."

However, something like this has the potential to spark interest in these titles within the wider gaming community. And maybe.. just maybe... this will lead to demand for a return to RPGs that are about far more than shiny graphics and new ways to decapitate an enemy.
OK.. maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I can hope.

As to their plans for a possible BG3... that I have mixed views on. Even if it is done well, and stays true to the original feel of the games... as much as part of me would like a sequel (and yes, I would probably play it), I fundamentally feel that the series is over, and ended well. It's kind of like being offered an appetizer when you are replete with post-eating glow after consuming an exquisitely prepared five course meal.

And as to the ruleset... I really like second edition, so that makes me a happy camper.

Rancid Sushi · Post by **Rancid Sushi** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:08 pm

Shiny graphics aren't mere gloss. Highly detailed, three-dimensional graphics make it much easier to become immersed in the game which greatly enhances the experience. This is why I really can't go back to BG after I've experienced something like Skyrim. 2d isometric perspectives make me feel like I'm controlling a character, but 3d first-person almost makes me feel like I am the character. I'll play this for the nostalgia factor, but BG's time is done unless they eventually reboot the series with updated graphics.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:21 pm

Interesting to hear you say that, Sushi. I really feel that Baldur's Gate's graphics have aged incredibly well. I've actually been replaying the first game off-and-on for the past two weeks, and have been amazed at how good the game looks. There are some games, even more recent ones, where the graphics really detract from the experience (I'm thinking of Neverwinter Nights as an excellent culprit.) Baldur's Gate, I feel, never really had that problem.

A few updated magic effects here and there might be nice, but I don't see how they could possibly pull off a major graphic overhaul of the series in the few months that they have, and, honestly, I'm not convinced that they need to.

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:13 pm

dragon wench wrote: However, something like this has the potential to spark interest in these titles within the wider gaming community. And maybe.. just maybe... this will lead to demand for a return to RPGs that are about far more than shiny graphics and new ways to decapitate an enemy.
OK.. maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I can hope.

I'm counting more on Wasteland 2 to do this, rather then BG:EE

Garriath wrote:A few updated magic effects here and there might be nice, but I don't see how they could possibly pull off a major graphic overhaul of the series in the few months that they have

They could have been working on this for a while now. No way to know. I would actually think that the graphics engine used in Temple of Elemental Evil would be good way to enhance BG.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:11 pm

Like DW, I feel a bit conflicted about BGIII - as she said, the Saga is over, what else is left for the Bhaalspawn? I can't see godhood being terribly interesting and somehow I can't imagine a prequel during the Time of Troubles... maybe the game from Sarevok's point of view? Who knows. I really can't even imagine what story they could think up while at the same time keeping the feel and atmosphere of the Baldur's Gate series.

On the other hand, I'm very excited about enhanced edition, but just as well... isn't that exactly what Tutu does? It brings the first game into ToB's technical style.

The way it sounds, is that while doing so, they are also adding some story elements to the game. If there are new characters, perhaps we can expect new quests and more story?

Rancid Sushi · Post by **Rancid Sushi** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:31 pm

I always envisioned BGIII as being a better version of the "Return to Trademeet" fan-made expansion. That is, the PC rejects godhood and continues adventuring with his/her love interest or with all new companions. Maybe the story could have something to do with an old grudge from BG2. Cernd's child? Another member of House Ployer? Something like that.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:17 pm

While it's an interesting idea, I don't think that's plausible since it forces you into a choice that not everyone made. On the other hand, like Dragon Age, it could also bring forth a completely different hero, or someone from the past, such as the Bhaalspawn that stayed... or maybe it can focus on Tiax's conquest for world domination. Who really knows?

Rancid Sushi · Post by **Rancid Sushi** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:43 pm

Or maybe the protagonist is a worshiper of the ascended Bhaalspawn. That could make for some interesting scenarios based on alignment.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:25 pm

Garriath wrote:Interesting to hear you say that, Sushi. I really feel that Baldur's Gate's graphics have aged incredibly well. I've actually been replaying the first game off-and-on for the past two weeks, and have been amazed at how good the game looks. There are some games, even more recent ones, where the graphics really detract from the experience (I'm thinking of Neverwinter Nights as an excellent culprit.) Baldur's Gate, I feel, never really had that problem.

A few updated magic effects here and there might be nice, but I don't see how they could possibly pull off a major graphic overhaul of the series in the few months that they have, and, honestly, I'm not convinced that they need to.

I definitely agree with you on the BG Graphics. I consistently alternate between the isometric infinity engine games and the Elderscrolls series (3-5), and I honestly don't find the switch from 3D to 2D at all jarring. They are just different from one another. And honestly, when a story is as well told as it is in the BG games, graphics are pretty much secondary, your imagination fills in the blanks (rather like reading a well-written descriptive novel). That being said, I actually think the hand-painted graphics of the BG series are quite lovely. Between those, the outstanding musical score, the characterization of the NPCs, the story... what more do you really need in terms of immersion?

As to the time frame between now and release, you can bet they will be a considerable ways into the project by this point, and chose this time to announce it because they now have all kinds of goodies they can start leaking out. The whole thing seems very well thought out and marketed to me.... first a remake of BG 1 and 2, see how well that flies... build buzz at the same time.. then, if the trial balloon hasn't crashed, start creating a sequel. (as I said above, I'm unsure how I feel about a sequel but they are being smart in the way they're proceeding)

@Rancid Sushi,
don't misunderstand me, I genuinely like Skyrim (even in its vanilla, unmodded form), and yes the incredibly detailed 3D landscapes are beautiful and immersive, but it's a different flavour of immersion. I enjoy both types, it depends on my mood.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:12 pm

dragon wench wrote: As to the time frame between now and release, you can bet they will be a considerable ways into the project by this point, and chose this time to announce it because they now have all kinds of goodies they can start leaking out. The whole thing seems very well thought out and marketed to me....

I think the only issue with that are [url="https://twitter.com/#!/TrentOster/status/177828321730633728"]these[/url][url="https://twitter.com/#!/TrentOster/status/177907563986300929"]tweets[/url], mentioning that they met with Atari and Wizards of the Coast on March 7 (exactly a week ago.) I guess I've got a hard time imagining that they'd have devoted huge amounts of time to a project if they still had things to run by both companies, but perhaps I'm wrong. I'd certainly like to be!

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:50 pm

1. I find it difficult to believe that Hasboro would sanction a game that doesn't feature 4E rather than 2E; but if it does that;s a good start.

2. BG3 is a non-starter, even if the protagonist in ToB rejected godhood, but the time she/he reached that point they are effectively already a god in terms of power/

3. It would be (assuming they do it right) a big improvement on BGT, let alone the inferior (IMHO) Tutu. For a start it would be properly integrated, as would any of the third party mods they included. No more faffing about with weidu and the black magic of figuring out the load order. Something that's been making my life hell recently.

So in summation: If they keep to 2E rules, integrate all the additional content and make the transition from BG to SoA far better than the horrible mess they made of it originally I'll be eagerly looking forward to it.

PS Whilst I enjoy the first person perspective of the Bethesda games, whilst they are eminently suitable for single player games, for a party based game they are totally unsuitable.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:49 pm

Just came across [url="http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Baldur-s-Gate-RPG-Overhaul-Games-Beamdog-PC-Gaming,15035.html#xtor=RSS-181"]this[/url] short article. Most of it we already know, but this bit gave me cause for real hope:

He goes on to reveal that Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition is going to have new content generated by some of the original team members. It will also include the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion. "We're very interested in supporting the modding community and hopefully kicking off even more mods," he adds. "We're going to stay with the Baldur's Gate model of only voicing some of the content. We feel it allows for more in-depth writing."

@Galraen,
couldn't agree more on all points of your post. I have tried installing Tutu and I found it quite complex at the time. Of course, that was before I acquired a reasonable grip on Wrye Mash/Bash for Elderscrolls and my techie skills have improved since then. Still though... no question I'll, at the very least, be buying the Enhanced version of BG1 at some point.
As to 3D games not working well for parties, I also concur. When I play MW or Obliv, I find that it really doesn't work with more than two companions, and just one is preferable.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:52 pm

Quote by Dragon Wench:

And as to the ruleset... I really like second edition, so that makes me a happy camper.

I'm with you DW, I think a lot of us "seasoned" D&D players used 2nd Ed for so long that we're just more accustomed to it. I'll even date myself a bit further. I even remember being a little irked at some of the changes, but more for feeling the need to buy all the new extra books when the 2nd edition came out in order to stay up with it. GADS

I do agree with Garriath though concerning 3rd Ed making otherwise mediocre attributes a little more meaniingful. Also, it took me a while the get the 2nd Ed. AC concept straight so I understand that feeling. My biggest complaint with 3rd Ed. is what a lot of its proponents hail as a strength. The idea of flipping between classes as easily as changing armor just seems wrong. Instead of role playing as D&D was designed it "seems" to me to lend itself towards trying to built custom power characters. Changing one's own course of life and study and vocation takes much time and effort, not the realitively easy way 3rd edition paints it.

AzL0n · Post by **AzL0n** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:51 pm

Okay this is the best news I've had for a long time. I'm the biggest Baldur's gate fan there is, I've played the first one ever since it came out and I'm still playing it up to this day. I've stopped counting how many playthroughs I've made of BG 1, tales, SOA and TOB. Baldur's gate is just like my favorite novel which I like to play over and over and that has always a somewhat different income to keep it fresh. I really really hope they're not gonna let me down on this one. Games these days are such craps Baldur's gates is the best thing that has ever been made. I have faith they'll do a great job though since this is the original Baldur's gate team making it. These guys know how to make a frickin' game and they're not in it just for the money.

So I don't know about you guys but the thing I love the most about baldur's gates, the second one especially is the NPC's and character's interactions. I love the fact that there's an infinite possiblity of NPC combinations and so many possible interactions. Baldur's gate 1 lacked severely in character interactions however so I hope they'll be working on that. Of course the main thing they need to do is to make a smooth passage from Baldur's gate 1 to Baldur's gate 2. I've been waiting for the two games to be bridged for so long and I would be devastated if they didn't do it now since it would mean never.

Now if they want to bridge the two games it will be important to be able to carry on with the same NPC's you had at the end of Baldur's gate 1 and these NPC's need to be more interesting and 3 dimensional than they were in BG1. For this to happen I think they would need to severely cut down on the number of Baldur's gate 1 NPC's otherwise it would just be way too much work to bring the 25 BG1 NPC's into BG 2 with each of them having their individual quests and interesting storylines. I don't see any other way to be able to do this well. It wasn't easy since I love most of those NPC's and I thought about it for a long time and decided on the 10 or 11 NPC's they should keep into BG1 and through BG2. Here's the NPC's I would want them to keep and the ones I don't think they should keep and why:

Ajantis- keep: He could be a sort of Anomen but less annoying with a possiblity to turn him into a fallen paladin. He could have a romance with the PC or with Imoen if the PC is a male and could grow into a darker character when Imoen gets abducted. In BG2 he would turn really badass and could make Anomen and Keldorn obselete. Don't get me wrong I loved Keldorn but he was just sort of a textbook Paladin, Ajantis could be greyer and more interesting.

Alora- discard: Useless, you encounter her way too late... just plain boring.

Coran- discard: he was too over powered, I always wanted to replace Khalid or Kivan with him when you met him in Cloakwood. Now I know you need a womanizer character but that role will be filled by Eldoth.

Dynaheir- keep: Iconic character. I think she still would have to die however comes SOB to make the transition simpler. Meanwhile give her a lot more interactions in BG1 however. Makes it so everyone will be really sad when Dynaheir dies.

Imoen- keep, obviously: This will be one of the best thing about the enhanced edition, fixing imoen. In BG1 Imoen had absolutely no character interactions and she was completely different, she had sort of a psychopatic vibe about her too. That's because she was actually a late addition to the game as we all know and the creators decided to make her main NPC in BG2. Now they will be able to make her an interesting character from beginning to end with tons of character interactions and could have a romance with Ajantis or Eldoth if the PC is a male. It won't be necessary to have her along for the story however. Should the player decide to drop Imoen Irenicus could capture Jaheira or Viconia. If the PC was a female then Irenicus could take whoever the PC is having a romance with. If a player were to solo the game or have an all male cast then Irenicus could throw a curse on the PC or such so that the PC has to hunt him down, just an idea.

Khalid-keep: same as Dynaheir. Also make him a little less pussified and stuttering.

Kivan- discard: Okay so I loved Kivan but I was thinking that he's a very dark character. BG1 should have a bit of a lighter feel before everything turns to sh*t. I think BG1 should have lighter characters that turn darker as the game goes on such as Jaheira and Ajantis.

Minsc- keep: Not much to change here, awesome character, great comic relief. Give him more character interactions, especially with Dynaheir. Also explore the Minsc and Aerie relationship some more comes SOA.

Yeslick- discard: Boring old dwarf, comes too late into the story. I never liked feeling obligated to take him along since he was a prisoner.

Branwen- discard: She was never interesting to me.

Faldorn- discard: She already appears in BG2 as the shadow druid leader.

Garrick- discard: he's kind of awkward. Replace him with Eldoth, BG only needs one bard and Eldoth is far cooler.

Jaheira- keep: Iconic character, just give her more lines and such. Have the romance with her start after Khalid's death just as it is.

Quayle- discard: Jan Jansen is funnier, he'll stay Aerie's foster father.

Safana- discard: There'll be too many thieves, the slutty character will be Viconia.

Skie- discard: Most useless character in BG, as if there wasn't enough female thieves already. She will appear as a non playable NPC who Eldoth will want to abduct for money.

Xan- Not sure: They could make him really interesting. I'd like to find out what's under his doom and gloom persona. He could have a romance with the PC if female. That would fit with the one good , one neutral , one evil character romances for male characters in BG2.

Edwin- discard: Discard from BG1 that is. He's an awesome character and the smartest of all but I'd rather keep Xzart for BG1. I think you should still be able to recruit him in MaeVar's attic or else the Edwin turns woman storyline could be given to Xzart.

Eldoth- keep: Badass character, he should be met in Beregost instead of Garrick. He would want to get to Baldur's Gate to abduct Ski but there would be a possiblity as a female PC to make him change his mind and to have a romance with him. If the PC is male there could be a Imoen / Eldoth romance and an Imoen/Eldoth/Ajantis triangle where the two guys could fight to death. If they haven't fought to death comes SOA then they could develop a friendship once Imoen is abducted and they'd decide to put their differences aside to find her.

Kagain- discard: One-dimensional character, gold gold gold. Can't have two materialistic NPC's leave alone both being in Beregost.

Montaron- keep: Iconic character. He would probably die comes SOA which would actually affect Xzart quite a bit. I guess the Montaron turned into bird storyline could still be in there with a possiblity of Xzart dying at the end of the quest if done wrong.

Shar-Teel- discard: One dimensional character, male hater, again Viconia is here for that. She was too far off in the map. Why would she just hang out at the ankheg zone waiting for male travelers to fight with? You'd think she would have more important things to worry about. I thought that the whole Angelo's daughter thing was sort of interesting but I never cared enough about her to actually care about her back story. This plot point could be delegated to another character or just dropped altogether.

Tiax- keep: Very funny character. He would be the only NPC you could recruit in the city of BG. I don't know if he should still be in spellhold. Maybe they should keep that in it was hilarious. He could have a quest in BG2 where his crazy self end ends up pissing off the cowled wizards somehow and ends up there. Then maybe a quest later on to cure his mental ilness and make him become an old wise gnome again with different lines and such.

Viconia- keep: Iconic character and one of the most fascinating, keep the romance in, have it start when you recruit her. They could have the thing where she's about to get burned on the fire in BG1 instead of SOA since it was very cool. And it was kind of weird that this flaming fist guy was chasing her alone with his full plate on far deep into the woods.

Xzart- keep: Wicked NPC, Xzart and Montaron make an hilarious team, I think their strange relationship should be explored more until Monty's demise. There are many ways his character could be developed comes SOA.

Now I could get on about what I would want out of SOA's NPC's but I'll leave that for later.

I hope that they'll make so that players get all the stuff back that they had in BG1 back in SOA.

Comes the beginning of TOB you could summon any of the NPC's of BG1 or 2 assuming that they haven't died and that you've actually met the characters.
If you've wronged the characters in any way they might try to kill you after you summon them especially if they're of evil alignment.

Of course all of this is assuming that they really do want to bridge the two games together which I really hope they would or I don't care for this enhanced edition. New quests? There's enough quests already. I want the story that's already there to be tighter and more interesting and for the quests that they do ad to be about the NPC's.

AzL0n · Post by **AzL0n** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:52 pm

On a graphics level I couldn't care less honestly. BG has perfect graphics as far as I'm concerned. Maybe make it so that when characters miss their hits they don't just swing the weapon into nothingness. Make the characters dodge and block Neverwinter nights style. Also fix the characters a bit like get rid of Minsc's hair and stuff. Maybe improve the character customization slightly. Like different hairstyles, voices and stuff. That's all I want as far as graphics are concerned.

How about you guys? Assuming they tweak up the story and don't just fill it with more quests and better graphics, how would you want it to be?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:37 am

The main thing for me would be to greatly improve the transition from BG to SoA. Make it so the party you finish BG with is the party you start SoA with, apart from two fatalities at the hands of Irenicus. Also people that die in BG should stay dead; apart from Sarevok I guess, who they actually made a rout back for.

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:43 am

The main thing for me would be to greatly improve the transition from BG to SoA. Make it so the party you finish BG with is the party you start SoA with, apart from two fatalities at the hands of Irenicus. Also people that die in BG should stay dead; apart from Sarevok I guess, who they actually made a rout back for.

They said that they are trying to do this.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:42 am

Thanks Thylein, great news; eagerly looking forward to it now.

Amanthor · Post by **Amanthor** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:38 pm

AzL0n wrote:Now if they want to bridge the two games it will be important to be able to carry on with the same NPC's you had at the end of Baldur's gate 1 and these NPC's need to be more interesting and 3 dimensional than they were in BG1. For this to happen I think they would need to severely cut down on the number of Baldur's gate 1 NPC's otherwise it would just be way too much work to bring the 25 BG1 NPC's into BG 2 with each of them having their individual quests and interesting storylines. I don't see any other way to be able to do this well. It wasn't easy since I love most of those NPC's and I thought about it for a long time and decided on the 10 or 11 NPC's they should keep into BG1 and through BG2.

No, just no. They will never cut out the old NPCs and if they did I'm not sure I'd buy the product.

Here's an alternate way of solving the smooth transition:

At the end of BG1 when Sarevok is dead the game doesn't stop. You'll go back up to the city, you're the hero, yadda yadda yadda. So, you go on a one last quest but a fixed set of NPCs would decline to come with you, they want to pursue their own destiny and what not. Some will come with you such the classic set up Minsc, Dynaheir, Jaheira, Khalid, Imoen. Viconia and Edwin would probably leave only to meet you again in BG2.

The devs basically pick and choose who they want to be eligible for the starting dungeon in BG2, and if the party members in your group at the end of BG1 are, then they'll come with you.

You would not finish this final quest in BG1, but instead be kidnapped by Irenicus' lackeys midway.

Ha! No need to throw away our beloved NPCs in BG1.