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I have a Lawful Neutral Kensai-Mage and have several questions regarding his future.

From extensive reading of the SOA walkthrough so kindly provided to us by gamebanshee, I know about the good and evil paths that can be taken in Hell and how your alignment in TOB changed by the choices you make. I do not have TOB but i am intending to get it after I complete SOA, so my first question is
if i take a mixture of good and evil choices in Hell, will my alignment change? What i really want to know is whether i can mantain my Lawful Neutral Alignment by taking a mixture of good and evil paths, if not pls detail the exact effects on aliagnment by different choices.

My next question is that will Kensai-mages lose their viability as front line fighters in TOB? Throughout SOA, i have immensely enjoyed using my character as a fighter with spell enhancements like tenser's and other protection and abjuration spells with the occasional fireball or Abi dhazim thrown in. The key question is whether my kensai-mage be able to aquire abilities like Greater WhirlWind? I am confused about this since technically as a dual class figher, my character qualifies for the ability but the main component of his character is mage.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read my question and please take the time to answer if you know the answers or refer to an appropriate source.

If you make any of the "evil" selections in hell, your character's alignment will change to evil. "Good" selections will have no effect on him/her.

If you're running a dual-class kensai/mage, then you will only acquire the mage improvements in ToB, since you stopped training as a kensai long ago. Assuming you're running a multiclass kensai/mage, then you'll get the new benefits for both characters: spells for the mage, skill picks for the kensai.

My true neutral Avenger failed one test in hell and is now neutral evil *sigh* I wouldn't mind - but she cannot even equip the sword...such greed!

Thank you for the prompt answer fable.

First off, this should really belong in the ever-popular ToB forum. But I'll spare you the troble this time, provided you never do it again, you naughty boy.

You cannot obtain high-class abilities from the inactive class if your character is dualed. A k/m, therefore, will not gain GW, Deathblow, etc. Only the mage spells are available (and extra memorization slots).

I dunno about the align change, since I usually just play straight good/evil challenges. Maybe someone else is able to answer that part.

My pleasure, @Reichart. And welcome to the forum.

Warning, long replay!!
As I've done before, I share a bit of my knowledge about fighter/mages,
which I've always played.
It is right, dual kensai/mages won't get the fighter abilities (unless you dual VERY late). BUT a kensai/mage doesn't need them at all.
The only one you'll miss (but you can do without it) is hardiness.
This is a very USEFUL ability.
As for the greater whirlwinds...
If you dual a kensai at level 13, and assuming you are dualwielding
(which I really recommend), you should have 4 attacks/round.
Just cast Imp.Haste and you'll have 8 (EIGHT!) attacks/round.
And such a STORM lasts 1 round/level!!!!!!!!!!!
So, 20 (TWENTY!!!!)rounds, if you are a level 20+ caster.
Whirlwinds give 10 attacks for just ONE round.....
(Not to mention if you use the GrandMastery Patch! The attacks
would be NINE......)
And there are many items that can cast Imp.Haste...

I know many people would take a multiclass fighter/mage just because of the
whirlwinds, but really, there's no need!!!
The power of a kensai/mage is... embarassing.
You go on as mage, so you'll have many, many spells.
A multiclass sacrifices them too much, IMHO.
(I now have in ToB a kensai/mage with FOUR 9th level spells...)
And, in pure melee, NO ONE will stand in your way. Ever.
Even if other classes go on as fighters, the kensai bonuses will give the edge to you.
And you are even stronger, in melee, than a pure class kensai
(while a pure class kensai would have incredibly high bonuses, you
just cast improved invisibility and gain +4 thac0/AC, add tenser
and gain another +4, this time including damage, cast improved
haste etc...., and you are able to protect yourself)
And you'll have even a better AC (a kensai wears nothing, you'll
have Vecna. You DO have Robe of Vecna, right??? And the ioun stones!)
Again add the protections, contingencies and so on....
Believe me, you'll remain the best melee machine for the entire game,
AND the most powerful mage.

(A berserker/mage also is interesting. He loses something in melee,
but adds to the mix the BEST magical defense in the game.
And may wear all the best magical helmets.
Maybe this is the ULTIMATE char, in my mind)

In hell, just follow the good path.
SPOILER
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You can afford a -1 to dex.
Among the other things, you gain immunity to normal and +1 weapons.
This means that if you cast Prot. from Magical weapons you are
TOTALLY immune to weapons.
So, nasty contingency combos come to mind, that can grant you
virtual immunity to ALL form of damage existing in the game...

YOU'LL NEVER NEED TO PREPARE YOURSELF FOR FIGHTS.
Just count on your quick spells and contingencies.
If REALLY need arises, you may cast Time-Stop + Improved Alacrity
and cast all the spells you want (I mean ALL. I think I reached
25 or more once...)

I love DUAL fighter/mages, forgive my intrusion!!!!!

I recall that if you do NOT have ToB installed, you could take the evil path in some of the Tears of Bhaal tests without affecting your alignment, as long as you did the one involving Sarevok last. I don't know if the official SoA patch removes this exploit. Also, there is a way to avoid the DEX loss while taking the good path.

How do you dodge the Dex penalty??? I tried the opening the doors before the hold person thing.

You must be playing with a party (no soloing) to pull this off. Go to either the Save Game or Load Game menu and look at the portraits of your most recent save. Notice who's in the 2nd position, right after your main character? That's who the demon will nab. Equip him/her with the boots of speed. As soon as the dialog with the demon ends, pause. Select the character (who should now be near the demon) and command him/her to open the door. Unpause the game. He/she should get it open before the hold takes effect. The demon will be satisfied, and you'll get your tear, penalty-free.

Hmmm, I'd say stats are one issue - role-playing is another.

I've played games where I've really waited for the tests in hell to get an "official" change to evil because the char developed that way and I still lost DEX because my char wasn't willing to trade a (powerful) party member for a single point of DEX. So I took Blackrazor and the cloak and killed the dragon for principle obsession but I didn't accept Sarevoks provocation nor did I sell a party member - my char was greedy and proud, but not selfish or easy to anger.

If you really can't stand the fact that you lose that point you can still use SK to get it back. Still easier than trying to maneuvre around the real idea of the quest for hours and hours ... IMHO

Great Info Littiz, thanks for the feedback on kensai-mages.

I have to clarify some stuff though.
Currently I am quite attactched to Ishamael my lvl 9/lvl -- kensai-mage.....if i were to import him to TOB wouldnt it be impossible for me to make him a level 13 kensai dual mage? If i am wrong or there is a way to circumvent this pls inform me.

Its a relief though to know that Kensai-mages can still rock in TOB.
I specialise in katannas and longswords so aside from Celestial Fury, I really want to get my hands on Black Razor. Thankfully someone has found a way to get it and still remain 'good'.


P.S sorry i took so long to reply. pretty Busy with Schoolwork these days. Hope u catch my reply.

I would have to say a Fighter/mage is FAR superior to a dualled Kensai mage...

Why?

Well.. several reasons.

1. Multi's rock because you get more special abilities, especially fighter special abilities which are just awesome. Hardiness and Greater whirlwind rock! Mages max out on there special abilities relatively soon...

2. Fighter THACO improvements max out at 20, so you will get maximum THACO in any case.

3. You get 9th level spells in any event when you max out in levels. My gnome fighter illusionist has 4 of these as well, in fact you get MORE spells because you are a specialist!


Don't believe me? run a Gnomish mage/illusionist through vs a kensai mage. I've done both and found the Gnome/fighter illusionist had as many spells and better comabat abilities than the kensai mage. I soloed my gnomish friend on insane and he mauled through everything, even Mellisan.

do you get offered the fighter illusionist if you choose race? I am not sure if you can do this without sk...though I remember thief illusionist being kosher for gnomes....

kensai kit offers a very nice advantage over fighters..that wonderful thaco bonus!!! not sure what it is at level 13, but really nice to start out with superb thaco....

I gotta give the advantage to fightermages, with tob installed, the combo of hardiness, with spirit armor, (if you got balderdash for tob patch installed, hardiness is not cumulative with itself, ) this makes you RESISTANT to much physical damage, sorta like magic resistance is to magic!!!

if you run a party, get kensai mage, for the advantage of levellling up quicker once you convert.

if you run a small party, say 3 or less, get multi, you will be very happy....

@reichart
At this point, you'll have to edit the char with shadowkeeper.
Never tried such a thing, but it should work, just be honest and
lower the XPs of the mage class of the same amount.
Anyway even at level 9/* you can have a lot of fun!
For more info on kensai/mages just take a look at this thread, I remember this one 'cause I've made some long posts in it, but sure
you can find any info you want with a simple search.



@UberJason
As always, it goes down to preferences.
Just my opinion on your points:

1)you can't compare the number of spells with a specialist.
Let's talk about simple fighter/mages then.
I mean, sure, you can have ALMOST the same number of spells,
but at the price of sacrificing opposing schools.
In my idea of a mage, this has to be avoided.
My tactics involve almost ALL the existing spells, even Teleport
Field, at times!!!!!
You are comparing things unfairly this way. You must remember
what you lose.
And I'm not maximized in level yet

2)I didn't make exact calculations about thac0, but I never miss
an enemy, it only happens with critical misses....
If you dual at level 12 or 13, I think thac0 is not a point of debating.
At that level a kensai has already a great thac0, add the +4 from
the kit, strenght, magical bonus...
As I stated, I almost never miss. What's the difference between
two never-missing chars?????
Also the kensai has a -2 to AC....

3)Grand Mastery!!!!!!! A multi can only specialize.
Yes, it was toned down for game balance....
Just a proof of my position. Dual were already WAY too powerful.
So they altered the Grand Mastery bonuses, to give a chance
even to multiclass.
(I have the GrandMastery patch, 'cause I like to play with the
original AD&D rules.
It's not my fault if my character is powerful.
I had to spend points to obtain that mastery...
And if I have 5 stars instead of 2 the difference has to be evident.
But to avoid an incredible power, I dualled at 12 instead of 13)

4)The abilities: I admit the usefulness of hardiness. As for
the whirlwinds, as I stated, they are really redundant (for a fighter/mage) The others just suck.
And..I also often use the most powerful melee combo, the spell trigger Imp. Haste, Mislead, and Tenser. If a fighter/mage uses it, when he's "Tensered" the abilities would be inactive in any case.
(correct me if I am wrong).
The kensai/mage more than compensates this missing abilities, IMHO.
He simply doesn't need them at all.
And I never bother to use kai...

5)Above all... the kensai/mage is IMHO the most stylish char.
He just uses his sword(s), and his spells.
I know, so does a fighter/mage, but it's not the same..
He's not a sword-saint!
I like it!!!

Yet, if you prefer a multi, have fun with a multi!
I like to dual, 'cause I want to play a pure mage later, till
the highest levels with the Xcap remover.
Maybe I'll try a multi, sooner or later.
But if we're talking about power, you really should try a BERSERKER/mage, then.
Dualled at 13th level.
No multi has such bonuses!
This guy has NO weak points. Kangaxx, Liches, Elder Orbs...
Ahahah! Too easy!

Good points, but I still must disagree... If the issue is what you want to have the most fun playing, then it's a personal thing... I'm just saying the easiest character (therefore most powerful) to solo with is an illusionist fighter.

1) Sacrificing Necromancy is actually a pain as you lose Animate dead and Abi Dhazims horrid Wilting. I find they are unnecessary however as Mordekanian's sword is the money summons, and at high levels if you want to deal out ridiculous damage just improve alacrity followed by two dragons breaths. Other than those two spells, I can't think of anything you really lose by being an illusionist.

2) AC is irrelevant, since I'm wearing Vecna to cast spells ridiculously fast I am more concerned with damage reduction and prevention. A high level illusionist gets six stoneskins and 6 mirror images. Cast Spell Immunity:divination and you don't have to worry about pesky True sights. Protection from magic weapons makes you totally invulnerable to most melee attacks in any event.

3) Well, grandmastery is comparing apples and oranges... I play with the Baldurdash patches and that's it. I suppose that is a matter of taste. In any event with all the Greater whirlwinds I get Grandmastery or not becomes irrelevant.

4) To be honest, I never bothered using Tenser's, I kill things quick enough without it. I don't bother sequencing and contigening usually because I get annoyed with all the set-up time. I didn't even bother using them with Melissan

5) Okay, I'll give you the style thing...

I have soloed on insane difficulty with both, and I found the Gnome illusionist/fighter much easier. It would have been even easier if I chose evil instead of good, as I could have got my strength up to a natural 23 and replaced Crom with the Defender of Easthaven (very underrated, 20% damge resistance that stacks with hardiness)

Bezerker mages are good, but any rage effects can instantly be mirrored by spells.... (Demi-lich's are cake with spell immunity:abjuration). A multi will have a much easier time of it than any dual, just because of whirlwind/hardiness.

I usually dual flail/crom, replacing the flail with the Mace of disruption for undead.

The problem here is that we have a completely different style of play.
The power of a class is also function of how you use it!
(And as long as you have fun....)

Anyway, there is something I have to say yet!

1)As I said, I like to have ALL the spells. Also, necromantic spells
are really good... Skull trap, Vampiric touch, Animate Dead, and
Abi Dahlzim, I can't lose those spells.
And Abi Dahlzim, unlike dragon breath, CAN be put in a contingency!!!
I love contingencies... my best moments of gaming ALWAYS were due
to unexpected encounters (or outcoming of supposed "predictable" battles), saved at the last by contingencies!!!
How can you do without them???

2)I didn't say that Whirlwinds are useless, only that they are redundant for a fighter/mage. If you have Imp. Haste, it's enough.
About the trigger combo, Tenser+Mislead+Imp.Haste you gain
(with baldurdash):
+8 thac0
+4 AC (should be +8, as mislead should give the benefits of
improved Invisibility. Too bad, only the thac0 is fixed)
+4 damage
DOUBLED attacks
DOUBLED HPs

The above IN ADDICTION to the fact that you gain the thac0 of
a warrior of the same level (if you're a kensai/mage 12/25, you'll
be like a fighter 25, while in the case of a fighter mage you actually
LOWER your thac0 by the difference in levels.
But the +8 remains!!!!!)

3)It is hard for me D) but I have to admit that User is right.
I mean, the real point are the XP. In a large group multi are TOO
slow. I had Aerie in a party of six, and she gained a 9th level
spell only at the very end of ToB. Just before the last battle....
While a dual-classed char is powerful even in a large party.
I understand that if you are soloing a multi this is different...
But so change things for a kensai/mage!!!
If you solo, you'll gain some 16 millions XPs (or probably more)
through ToB (I surpassed the ToB limit in SoA once)
So I could take a kensai, reach say 4-5 millions, gain incredible
kit bonuses, as well as whirlwinds and hardiness, and THEN dual!!!!
...................
See, if you compare things the right way...

4)The berserker gains a lot of immunities with a SINGLE, FAST ability!
Very, very useful!

Protection from magic weapons makes you totally invulnerable to most melee attacks in any event.

What weapons are enchanted to offer Protection from Magic?

I believe he meant the spell "Protection from Magic Weapons" , not a Weapon that cast Protection from magic

I rarely bother with prot from magic weps, found mislead, and boots of speed with greater whirlwind allows me to do major carnage, leaving behind heaps of corpses behind me. so I am in underdark, and using mislead can clear flayer lairs solo, and they never get a lock on me...using ring of free action invulnerable to psionic stun, and helm of charm for area effect domination, prot from magic weps became useless, and i removed it from my def.

sure, dual wield is cool, and can become very powerful, but mults can have the same attacks with dual wield, and can use two handed weps with 10 attacks per round!!!!


think staff of ram, or ravager...youre not going to give them up, are you???