Adoption for homosexual couples

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:39 am

The Netherlands has recently implemented new family laws that means gay couples are allowed to adopt children within the Netherlands. In Sweden, there is a current debate concercing gay adoption, and the debate goes like this:

Pro-gay abortion arguments:
- In a democratic soceity, discrimination of people's rights to have children shouldn't be tolerated. Single parents or hetero couples can adopt or get insemininations, why should gay people be singled out as the only group who are not allowed to get a child this way.
- Studies show that there are no differences in health and well-being among children to gay parents are not less well than children to hetero parents.
- In the case of international adoptions, some countries might not want to adopt children to Sweden if we allow homoadoption. This should be respected, but Swedish law should not be adjusted according to this.
- Adoptions concering couples where one has a child, and the partner is not the child's biological parent should be allowed since all children have a right to two parents. (Applicable when a single parent has adopted or a single mother has got an insemination)

Against gay abortion arguments:
- Children should not be a tool for soceity's general strive towards equal rights.
- Homosexual families are not fully accepted in Swedish soceity, and children should not be put in an experiment situation. The children might risk social problems because of prejudices against gay people.
- No countries that are approved by UN as "giving"-countries, allows homoadoption. Thus, there might not be any children to adopt in the case of international adoptions. Even if other countries allows homoadoption, it might still be problematic for the adopted child with gay parents to visit it's that country in the future.
- Adoption can complicate a childs life situation. Adding gay parents means increasing the risk for complications.

What do you think about it? I realise this is a controversial topic, so I ask everybody to reply according to your personal opinion but refrain from discriminating or insulting comments.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:17 am

Children should not be a tool for soceity's general strive towards equal rights.

Everything should be a tool for society's strive towards equal rights.

Homosexual families are not fully accepted in Swedish soceity, and children should not be put in an experiment situation. The children might risk social problems because of prejudices against gay people.

but how are we going to end prejudices against gay people?...

No countries that are approved by UN as "giving"-countries, allows homoadoption. Thus, there might not be any children to adopt in the case of international adoptions. Even if other countries allows homoadoption, it might still be problematic for the adopted child with gay parents to visit it's that country in the future.

I think there is only one way to change this...

Adoption can complicate a childs life situation. Adding gay parents means increasing the risk for complications.

I think 'avoiding complications' is a weak argument for encouraging discrimination...

all that said, I think saying 'gay' puts a sligthly misleading impression in one's head. If you had just said 'two men', then maybe I would have said 'I think that a child should not grow up without a mother'...who knows...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:54 am

Originally posted by frogus
I think saying 'gay' puts a sligthly misleading impression in one's head. If you had just said 'two men', then maybe I would have said 'I think that a child should not grow up without a mother'...who knows...

That question has also come up in the Swedish debate. The against-side argues that a child needs both a father and a mother, that parents of both genders are important for the social and psychological development. The pro-side argues that many children grow up with only one parent, and according to studies, children with single parents do not fare less well than other children, so why would they fare less well with two parents, even if they are the same gender?

CM · Post by CM » Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:58 am

I would say no. The sole arguement that I have is a religious one, so I rather not get into it.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:09 am

Personally i would say no, i don't think that a child can have proper grounding in a single parent relationship any more than they can with same sex parents. However i am somewhat of a backward guy and i have nothing to go on other than my personal opinion i don't have facts or statistics it is just what i feel.

Although i don't think a child is always stable with two same sex parents if they argue and fight all the time. However what is to say that a homosexual couple wont do the same.

I am somewhat undecided, my gut reaction says no, then i think about how bad life is for kids generally and is this actually going to make it any worse?

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:20 am

I think many of the arguments against homosexuals adopting children stem from a religious background. In many religions, homosexuality is a sin, or at least taboo, so they are going to oppose same-sex couple adoptions no matter what other evidence is presented.

I have not heard of any credible evidence that same-sex couples adopting kids leads to any more problems than traditional couples adopting children. I also do not believe that gay parents lead to gay kids (many gay people, had straight parents, so how did they become homosexuals?).

I was watching the "Barbara Walters Special" with Rosie O'Donnell that was on over here a couple of weeks ago where Rosie came out and spoke up against the state of Florida's ban on same-sex couples adopting children. She had an "expert" (I don't remember her name or qualifications, but apparently she is very well-regarded in the fields of sociology and psychology) from one of the Univeristy of California schools on the show saying that there are several robust studies out there examining same-sex couples and their children which say that those children do not have any more or less psychological problems that children who grow up in single-parent homes or in traditional two-parent homes.

This program also discredited the state of Florida's star witness who claims that growing up with two same-sex parents leads to lasting psychological damage in the kids. The show said that this guy (I forget his name, too), has been kicked out of the American Psychological Association as well as the organisation of professional sociologists in the US for repeatedly fabricating evidence and publishing bad research.

As someone who was adopted, I will say that I would have rather grown up in a household with two dads or two moms than to have spent my childhood in an orphanage in Vietnam or in a series of foster homes. I think it is far more important for a child to feel needed and loved than to worry about "possible complications" from having homosexual parents.

@C Elegans:
Let me ask you this about the people who say that children need both a father and a mother: Are single parents allowed to adopt in Sweden? If they are, this counters the argument that both a male and female should be present as parents in a child's life. If single parents are allowed to adopt, this part of the argument against same-sex couple adoption needs to be removed, or single parents need to be barred from adopting as well.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:44 am

Originally posted by HighLordDave
This program also discredited the state of Florida's star witness who claims that growing up with two same-sex parents leads to lasting psychological damage in the kids. The show said that this guy (I forget his name, too), has been kicked out of the American Psychological Association as well as the organisation of professional sociologists in the US for repeatedly fabricating evidence and publishing bad research.

As a psychologist and researcher I'm fairly well read into the subject myself, and there is also a couple of Swedish psychologist who have been studying the subject for over 10 years. There are hundreds of studies from different countries that show no differences between children to same-sex parents and children to single parent or different-sex parents.
The guy you think of is Paul Cameron, and it is unfortunately true that he was kicked out of APA for unserious and fabricated research. He has been mentioned in the Swedish debate too, the against-side sometimes refer to his studies, whereas the pro-side try to make people aware that those studies are not reliable. It's actually quite serious to be kicked out of APA, it doesn't happen if you just do a few mistakes, only if it can be clearly demonstrated that you have behaved unethically.

As someone who was adopted, I will say that I would have rather grown up in a household with two dads or two moms than to have spent my childhood in an orphanage in Vietnam or in a series of foster homes. I think it is far more important for a child to feel needed and loved than to worry about "possible complications" from having homosexual parents.

I was also adopted, and I think that the against-side sometimes forget what the alternative for the adopted children would be. However, there is also an against-movement in Sweden that was started by an organisation for now adult internationally adopted children. This organisation argues that being adopted puts extra strain on the child, and having homosexual parents would add to this burden.

Are single parents allowed to adopt in Sweden? If they are, this counters the argument that both a male and female should be present as parents in a child's life. If single parents are allowed to adopt, this part of the argument against same-sex couple adoption needs to be removed, or single parents need to be barred from adopting as well.

Single parents are allowed to adopt in Sweden, and single women are allowed to get anonymous inseminations. There are no plans to change this.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:29 am

Originally posted by frogus
Everything should be a tool for society's strive towards equal rights.

No human being should be a tool for society's strive towards equal rights.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:11 pm

Single parents are allowed to adopt in Sweden, and single women are allowed to get anonymous inseminations. There are no plans to change this

If a government allows this then they have to allow gay couples to adopt. If not then they are just acting out of hatred and fear...

I think many of the arguments against homosexuals adopting children stem from a religious background. In many religions, homosexuality is a sin, or at least taboo, so they are going to oppose same-sex couple adoptions no matter what other evidence is presented.

how prevalent is religion in sweden?

I think that the two arguments that stand against this can be disposed of like so:
'Children need both a mother and a father'
'Children are just as well off with a single parent'

'Children will be traumatised because of society'r discrimination against homosexulaity'
'Then we must stop discriminating aginst homosexuals and allow them to adopt'.

I think that tradition and distrust of change are the only factors which remain.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:23 pm

I am with HLD on this one. I see no reason other than fear that stops homosexual couples from adopting children.
There are so many bad parents out there who don't deserve to have kids but have them ANYWAYS, I think it is grossly unfair to forbide gays who would probably do a far better job of raising a child.
Heres a question, what affects the mind of a child more, being beaten for years, or growing up with gay parents?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:39 pm

Originally posted by Obsidian
I am with HLD on this one. I see no reason other than fear that stops homosexual couples from adopting children.
There are so many bad parents out there who don't deserve to have kids but have them ANYWAYS, I think it is grossly unfair to forbide gays who would probably do a far better job of raising a child.
Heres a question, what affects the mind of a child more, being beaten for years, or growing up with gay parents?

I entirely agree with this.....
IMO what is important is that the adopted child is loved and nurtured..... These qualities are not specific to sexual orientation.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sat Apr 06, 2002 9:48 pm

I think homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt children, the same as straight couples. While I appreciate concerns over the potential lack of a father/mother figure for children raised by homosexual couples, in most long-term homosexual relationships each partner tends to adopt either a "dominant" or "submissive" role, much the same as in a heterosexual partnership.

With regards to human beings as tools for society's strive towards equal rights, I think that as members of a given society it is our responsibility to advance equality in any way we can. The problem with saying "Children should not be a tool for society's strive towards equal rights" is that, as part of society they will one day have to be an active part of the same progression that they are supposedly being protected from, and irrespective of which way the decision goes they will still be tools for one "side" of the debate or the other. Children should not, however, be exploited or made a victim in the process.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:11 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans

Single parents are allowed to adopt in Sweden, and single women are allowed to get anonymous inseminations. There are no plans to change this.

If this is the case...A single male/female could adopt a child then later marry a same sex person.

What would the law then do?

(Sarcasm)

Sorry Mr/Mrs. Anybody but the child you adopted will have to be returned? Even thought this child is being well taken care off, your chose of partners violates our policies?

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:20 pm

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
With regards to human beings as tools for society's strive towards equal rights, I think that as members of a given society it is our responsibility to advance equality in any way we can. The problem with saying "Children should not be a tool for society's strive towards equal rights" is that, as part of society they will one day have to be an active part of the same progression that they are supposedly being protected from, and irrespective of which way the decision goes they will still be tools for one "side" of the debate or the other. Children should not, however, be exploited or made a victim in the process.

As an adult, you have a choice to be part of it or not. As a child, you're not given a choice, and are thus just being used. Using people is wrong.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:32 pm

Agreed on the using people part, but in relation to the topic at hand society is still using children as tools by not allowing child adoption for homosexual couples. Seeing as how it's an either/or situation, there is no way that the children can avoid being tools for one side or the other. I think what I said came across as a general statement, which is something that I didn't intend for it to be. Sorry 'bout that.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 11:39 am

sorry to spam up the thread, but if using people is wrong, what about Community Service for criminals:
'Now go and help build a school for the community'
'I don't want to, I want to go and kill people! You're using me!'
'Well I guess he's got a point. Using people is wrong. Let him go boys...'

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 12:13 pm

Originally posted by Weasel

If this is the case...A single male/female could adopt a child then later marry a same sex person.

What would the law then do?

Nothing, and this is a problem that the against-side have difficulties arguing against and the pro-side use to strengthen their views. In fact, the debate regarding allowing adoption for single parents (that was quite long ago) followed much the same pattern: the against side argued it would not be good for the children to only start with one parent, and the pro-side argued that no studies show any differences in health/well-being between children growing up in single or couple households. The against-side argued, then as now, than countries who give children for adoption to Sweden would not allow single parents, but in the end I believe what happened was that they only increased the demands somewhat on single parents, ie Vietnam initially demanded that single parents must have a connection to the country to be allowed to adopt (I'm not sure whether this is so any longer). Since then, single parent adoption has increased in Sweden, and today it's not viewed as strange or wrong as far as I know.
Naturally, some single parents later coupled up with somebody, sometimes with a person of the same sex. There is no laws concerning this, just as there is no laws that prohibits a man and a woman to get a child, share custody but live together with other partners of the same or different sex. It is not uncommon that gay men and women chose this solution to get children.

posted by Obsidian
Heres a question, what affects the mind of a child more, being beaten for years, or growing up with gay parents?

According to long-term psychological and sociological studies of children, there is no difference between growing up with gay or straight parents. The differences between children growing up and being consistently beaten v children who have not, are too many to describe in detail: depression, chronic posttraumatic stress syndrome, cognitive deficits, peer problems, school problems, increased risk of future drug abuse and criminality, etc, etc.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 12:41 pm

Heres a question, what affects the mind of a child more, being beaten for years, or growing up with gay parents?

good point, which is why beating children is against the law. But here's the question: What affects the mind of a child more, growing up with gay parents or not growing up with gay parents?

I have to say aswell (am I the only one?) that I know a boy who was not adopted, but his father left before he was born and then his mother fell in love with another woman. His life was turmoil for quite a awhile because of legal issues and all that stuff, but he was a good friend of mine, very normal, and seemed not to have been affected by having gay parents at all. He now lives in Peru, so I haven't sen him for a while, but from my only personal experience I can say that gay parents are as able as anyone else...

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:39 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
According to long-term psychological and sociological studies of children, there is no difference between growing up with gay or straight parents.

I'm interested in knowing more about these studies. How long is "long-term"? How much diversity in the specific types of people observed for the studies was there? How long have these studies been going on? Even if they've been going on for 20 years, I wonder if that's really enough time to know anything relevant enough to predict what's likely to happen in the next 30-40 years of their life. How much was the social situation taken into consideration(i.e., interaction with peers at school, etc)? While parents play a large role, there's a lot more that affects a child's development than just the parents she has.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 5:26 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

I'm interested in knowing more about these studies. How long is "long-term"? How much diversity in the specific types of people observed for the studies was there? How long have these studies been going on? Even if they've been going on for 20 years, I wonder if that's really enough time to know anything relevant enough to predict what's likely to happen in the next 30-40 years of their life. How much was the social situation taken into consideration(i.e., interaction with peers at school, etc)? While parents play a large role, there's a lot more that affects a child's development than just the parents she has.

You cannot define how long-term a study will be. Once a child leaves home they are generally not really effected by thier parents because they have more indepenence. They cannot be 30-40 years of study because that is too long, a 'child' could be 45 then! How can a 60-70 year old parents change what a 45 year old or whatever age it is, thinks?