GameBanshee Forums

In the Washington Post today there is an article about the differences in the way Europe and the US deals with the drug problem.

Basically there is a trend in Europe towards legalising drugs and putting people in treatment instead of jail. I personally think this is the way to go.

Look at Holland there are for fewer cannabis smokers there than in England despite it being legal in Holland. In fact there are just fewer drug users in Holland across the board.

But I think the main benefit is that we you stop illegal drug dealing completely, stopping criminals from profiting on other people misery.
It could be handled from pharmacies putting a bit of tax on it and the money from that could go to treating the victims. There are just hundreds of benefits to legalising drugs.

Just one: Lets say we throw a young man in jail for a minor drugs offence. He spends 24 hours a day with hardened criminals that take hard drugs in an environment where drugs are always readily available. What happens to that young man?
I am not sure about jails in the US but in Europe all attempts to keep drugs out have failed meaning that people that enter jail doing soft drugs often leave addicted to hard drugs.

I would like to know what the SYM population think. War or Treatment?

Just as an interesting end note. I read yesterday that in the UK if a crackcocain addict goes to a clinic for treatment for his addiction he waits an average 8 months before that treatment starts.

LEGALIZE IT !

First I want to make clear that there IS a distinction between DRUG and DRUG.

Cannabis (pot, dope, grass...whatever you want to call it) is definitely NOT as dangerous as cocaine, heroin, crack or LSD.

It's on about the same level (if not lower) as alcohol, caffeine and nicotine.

Therefore : LEGALIZE IT !

All the other drugs ("hard drugs") - I think therapy is better than jail - but prevention and information would be even better then therapy...I can't tell you HOW to prevent, but I'm sure there is a way...

No worries,

Beldin

Say Joeblow down at the brake shop smokes him a good bit of "pot, dope, grass" and forgets to fix your brakes. You pull out and kill someone. Who's fault? Joeblow? The shop for hiring Joeblow? Yours for trusting the Shop and Joeblow?

To fix this you would need to screen your employs everyday, who is going to cover the bill? Put more tax on the "pot, dope, grass" to cover this expense? Have the place/employer raise their cost to cover it?

And this is just one example, can you imagine going to a doctor and having your life in his hands and not know if he smokes pot?

As for legalizing "soft" drugs, I will be all for it ...if it is written in the laws someone on them cannot be held liable for any damages or life taken.

I see no reason to give the lawyers something else to sue about. If it is to be done, everyone takes a chance and no one should be sued.


Now do you want to take the chance?

Originally posted by Tom
Just as an interesting end note. I read yesterday that in the UK if a crackcocain addict goes to a clinic for treatment for his addiction he waits an average 8 months before that treatment starts.

8 Months, they must of got their average's wrong, try more like a year

Personally i think they should legalise it, why? The main thrust of the argument against is that it is a gateway drug, this is a half truth, it isn't a a gateway drug anymore than alcohol and cigarettes and i don't see anyone getting those banned.

Plus how is cannabis a violent drug, do you see anyone taking marijuana running around smashing in cars and beating up old ladies? The only thing that would cause that is to pay for the drugs but when/if it is legalised surely the price would be standardised.

On a quick moderators note, we don't need any specifics on drug taking etc, try to keep the conversation ambiguous.

Originally posted by Weasel
Say Joeblow down at the brake shop smokes him a good bit of "pot, dope, grass" and forgets to fix your brakes. You pull out and kill someone. Who's fault? Joeblow? The shop for hiring Joeblow? Yours for trusting the Shop and Joeblow?

Is it actually any different to him drinking alcohol on the job, i think the same liability that is incured for drinking on the job should apply to cannabis

I am absolutely in favour of legalizing cannabis, because everyone knows that the drug does very little harm; the only dangerous element is that if one wants a pack of cigarettes or a cup of coffee one can go to a shop and pay some cash and some tax and consume it on the street, but if one wants to score cannabis one has to go to a criminal, and pay him money for a transaction which must be made in secret, and may not be checked by any reponsible authority or documented in any way...

I think the vast majority of people are in favour of cannabis legalization now, so I ont bother discussing it much more, but by wierd coincedence, I was talking to an ex-crack and heroin addict. He said that it was a lose-lose (or win-win, depending on your POV) situation with hard drug treatment:
He would wake up, try and cook the residue left on last-night' spoon, find it ineffective, become desperate, go out and rob, steal and mug to pay for another hit...if he got caught, he would be taken to the clinic, and they would be compelled by law to give him a drug (which I can't remember the name of) which would give him a high almost as good as heroin, and the they'd let him go after giving him this drug. On the other hand, if he didn't get caught, he would do it all over again tommorow...

@weasel, how would you feel going to a doctor and not knowing if he's an alcoholic or not?

Originally posted by Weasel
Say Joeblow down at the brake shop smokes him a good bit of "pot, dope, grass" and forgets to fix your brakes. You pull out and kill someone. Who's fault? Joeblow? The shop for hiring Joeblow? Yours for trusting the Shop and Joeblow?

To fix this you would need to screen your employs everyday, who is going to cover the bill? Put more tax on the "pot, dope, grass" to cover this expense? Have the place/employer raise their cost to cover it?

And this is just one example, can you imagine going to a doctor and having your life in his hands and not know if he smokes pot?

As for legalizing "soft" drugs, I will be all for it ...if it is written in the laws someone on them cannot be held liable for any damages or life taken.

I see no reason to give the lawyers something else to sue about. If it is to be done, everyone takes a chance and no one should be sued.


Now do you want to take the chance?

But, my dear Weasel - that's all beside the point I'm trying to make. All of the dangers you listed above are EXACTLY the same if "Joeblow" is DRINKING on the job....(or driving a vehicle !)

I don't advertise smoking pot on the job same as I'm strongly against drinking on the job (or driving..! ) .

All I want to get cross is that:
IF i decide to smoke pot in my free time I'm a criminal.
IF i get "DRUNK as a SKUNK" instead, that's perfectly socially acceptable behaviour.

Considering that alcohol does in the long run MORE damage to my body than cannabis I don't understand that pot is NOT legalized. -> THIS is the thing that's making me sick...

No worries,

Beldin

PS: and I would rather trust my life to a pothead than to a drunkard. Pot doesn't make you overestimate yourself, and it doesn't interfere with your thinking process in the same way that alcohol does. ...

Originally posted by Beldin


But, my dear Weasel - that's all beside the point I'm trying to make. All of the dangers you listed above are EXACTLY the same if "Joeblow" is DRINKING on the job....(or driving a vehicle !)

I don't advertise smoking pot on the job same as I'm strongly against drinking on the job (or driving..! ) .

All I want to get cross is that:
IF i decide to smoke pot in my free time I'm a criminal.
IF i get "DRUNK as a SKUNK" instead, that's perfectly socially acceptable behaviour.

Considering that alcohol does in the long run MORE damage to my body than cannabis I don't understand that pot is NOT legalized. -> THIS is the thing that's making me sick...

No worries,

Beldin

PS: and I would rather trust my life to a pothead than to a drunkard. Pot doesn't make you overestimate yourself, and it doesn't interfere with your thinking process in the same way that alcohol does. ...

I see where you are coming from and if I had my way alcohol would be put under the same limits I put on pot.

S, you haven't smoked what I did when I was younger or you would know it does interfere with your thinking. It makes you think you are working faster, but in fact you will slow down, start looking for food and go off in a daze. What some might call "Mind Expanding".

Originally posted by Weasel

S, you haven't smoked what I did when I was younger or you would know it does interfere with your thinking. It makes you think you are working faster, but in fact you will slow down, start looking for food and go off in a daze. What some might call "Mind Expanding".

@Wesel: Could also depend on the particular "brand" one smokes...I'm not sure, since I'm not a "professional".

All I want is the freedom to choose for myself HOW to intoxicate me. I don't need any governing body to decide that anymore than I like the gov to decide that I need a helmet to ride my motorcycle.
I'm an adult and I have the right to make my own decisions as long as I don't harm or endanger others with my behaviour.

No worries,

Beldin

PS: @"Mind Expanding" - some people I know smoke TO MUCH dope - and if THEIR minds expand any more you could tie their brains under their chin...but overindulgence is NEVER a good thing - be it pot or shine or beer or SYM or......

I'm form Holland and what you see here, is that when you want to smoke cannabis, you just go to a so called "coffeeshop" and get some.

When you want to get some cannabis in a country like France it's just as easy, you go to a guy at the corner at the street, and he has 2small bags around it's waste 1 with cannabis, and 1 with cocain or heroin.

So to switch between canabis (witch is not addictive) and cocain or heroin is much easyer when it's both illigal.

So legalization makes it alot harder to switch. And the goverment can control it better.


*mmmm, all this talk about canabis makes me wanne light one *

Originally posted by Mr Sleep


Is it actually any different to him drinking alcohol on the job, i think the same liability that is incured for drinking on the job should apply to cannabis

When I was offshore, I saw how easy it is to hide a drug habit and how hard it is to hide a drinking habit. Drugs can be hide very easy, where as beer, ect does take some thinking to hide.

On another note...

Now I did like the rules offshore, you get caught drinking or smoking pot, your fired on the spot. No if or buts. I believe this is the way it should be everywhere. Not , lets get him/her help. It's time to grow up and be resposible for your habits.

Also I like stoned people much better then drunken people.
Booze can make people aggrasive, or just anoying,
stoned people aren't (in my experience that is)

Originally posted by Weasel
When I was offshore, I saw how easy it is to hide a drug habit and how hard it is to hide a drinking habit. Drugs can be hide very easy, where as beer, ect does take some thinking to hide.

One can avoid it, but i would assume it would show through, maybe i am wrong

Now I did like the rules offshore, you get caught drinking or smoking pot, your fired on the spot. No if or buts. I believe this is the way it should be everywhere. Not , lets get him/her help. It's time to grow up and be resposible for your habits.

I agree, it is the persons fault not societies

Originally posted by Beldin


@Wesel: Could also depend on the particular "brand" one smokes...I'm not sure, since I'm not a "professional".

All I want is the freedom to choose for myself HOW to intoxicate me. I don't need any governing body to decide that anymore than I like the gov to decide that I need a helmet to ride my motorcycle.
I'm an adult and I have the right to make my own decisions as long as I don't harm or endanger others with my behaviour.

No worries,

Beldin

PS: @"Mind Expanding" - some people I know smoke TO MUCH dope - and if THEIR minds expand any more you could tie their brains under their chin...but overindulgence is NEVER a good thing - be it pot or shine or beer or SYM or......

I believe you should have the right. Don't get me wrong I do. I just believe their should be safeguards against the use of it while at work. What kind, I really don't have any idea. (And I believe the same should be applied to alcohol as well)



PS: As you might can tell I don't drink or smoke anymore, my "Mind Expanding" days are at an end. Overindulgence did me in. Still I have no right to stop anyone else, but I believe I do have a right to protect my family and I from injury caused by someone at work while smoking or drinking. I hope you see what I mean.

Originally posted by Weasel
my "Mind Expanding" days are at an end. Overindulgence did me in.

We know, we've all seen the photo.

Originally posted by Stilgar
Also I like stoned people much better then drunken people.
Booze can make people aggrasive, or just anoying,
stoned people aren't (in my experience that is)

Yes I agree the smokers are more laid back.

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
One can avoid it, but i would assume it would show through, maybe i am wrong

It depends, most drunks will stagger around and get boostful. Where a smoker gets the laid back, red eye look. The deal offshore is, you are out for three weeks and I have seen people bring enough pot to last three weeks, where as beer you just can't hide that amount. And if you get lucky enough to go in with the barge, they search the things you bring back. Still there are ways around this, tying the beer in sacks and leaving it in the water being the number one choose.

Originally posted by Gruntboy


We know, we've all seen the photo.

LMAO It was a hard life, but someone had to do it.

Originally posted by Weasel


but I believe I do have a right to protect my family and I from injury caused by someone at work while smoking or drinking. I hope you see what I mean.

Point taken and accepted.
You're dead right about drugs or drinking on the job. I won't ever dispute you on that...

I'm just a bit touchy about personal freedom...

No worries,

Beldin

beware . . . long

I see that we have distinguished between "hard" drugs and "harmless" drugs. First of all, there is no such thing as a harmless drug. They all have adverse effects; that's why they're controlled substances. However, some of our friends have rightly pointed out that marijuana is not any more physiologically or psychologically harmful that other drugs (alchohol and nicotine) that are currently legal and socially accepted. In the United States, hemp products were made illegal not because of its health effects, but because of the powerful tobacco lobby that wanted to eliminate competition.

I personally do not smoke, I do not do drugs, and I only rarely drink. However, I believe that people have the right to do whatever they want to their own bodies up to the point where it endangers other people. There are some drugs out there which not only damage the individual user, but also impair their judgement so badly that they cause actions or inactions that put other people's lives on the line. Powerful hallucinogens (PCP, LSD, etc.), powerful stimulants (cocaine, crack, etc.) and powerful depressants (heroin, etc.) fall into this category. It is my opinion that these drugs should be illegal.

The drug problem in the United States is closely related with the "war" on drugs. We've been throwing money at this "war" for years, and have seen no substantive results. This is partly in due to our general approach of punitive actions rather than rehabilitive for the users and general impotence against producers. In addition, there is a lot of public frustration with the "war" because drug enforcement seems to be the only branch of government which can repeatedly fail in its stated objectives and still receive more funding; we're cracking down on schools, welfare and other social programs because of their ineffectiveness, but we keep throwing money at the "war" on drugs.

There are entire countries (or portions of those countries) that are the private fiefdoms of druglords. These include (but are not limited to) Columbia, Turkey, Afghanistan, Laos, and Venezuela. Unless there is a sustained international commitment to eliminate drug production worldwide, and the political and military will to enforce that commitment, the drug problem from the supply side will never go away.

However, simply eliminating the supply of drugs won't be enough. In the abence of a supply of drugs, people will find another outlet. In West Virginia (and many other states as well), we are facing a crisis related to the drug Oxy-Contin, which is a synthethic, time-released painkiller available by prescription only. Users get the pills (through bogus prescriptions or theft), process them to eliminate the timed-release and get a quick high, which has resulted in it's nickname "hillbilly heroin". Eliminating this drug is not the answer because it does fulfill a vital (and legitimate) role for people in need of long-term pain relief either because of chronic pain or terminal illness. Plus, if Oxy-Contin production were to stop, addicts would find another drug to use.

In order to fully eliminate drugs as a problem, we must destroy the supply and decrease demand. We must strike a balance between legalisation of less-harmful drugs and criminalisation of "hard" drugs, socially-stigmatise drug use (peer pressure and image are the main reasons why many people start smoking, drinking or using drugs to begin with) and rehabilitate drug users who want to quit, but cannot because of their addiction.

Originally posted by Weasel


I see where you are coming from and if I had my way alcohol would be put under the same limits I put on pot.

S, you haven't smoked what I did when I was younger or you would know it does interfere with your thinking. It makes you think you are working faster, but in fact you will slow down, start looking for food and go off in a daze. What some might call "Mind Expanding".

I've got to admit, I've expanded my mind this way on (quite a few) occasions, but after a point it stops being fun and lowers your coordination too much for you to do anything enjoyable. All the most enjoyable sessions I've had have been when it's been in moderation (Leavers week, for example) and I was out doing things, and now I rarely overindulge. On the occasions when I do, all I do is sit there staring into space, so it's a bit of a wasted (no pun intended) evening.

@HLD-Cannabis is in fact far less harmful than alcohol or nicotine. It's physically impossible to get addicted(The only possible addiction is psychological addiction to the psychoactive stimulae), and all but two of the numerous scientific research programs done on cannabis have shown it to have no adverse affects on human beings. One of the two studies done on the effects of cannabis, which found that cannabis smoking caused brain damage, was 'tested' by forcing chimpanzees to inhale large amounts of smoke without letting them breathe normally in-between, cutting off the supply of oxygen to the brain. Loss of oxygen to the brain does, as most people are doubtless aware, cause brain damage from oxygen starvation. The other study found that 8 out of 10 habitual cannabis smokers who took part in the study had various mental problems, including schizophrenia; what was only later found out was that all 10 subjects had been hand-picked by 'researchers' from a mental asylum, and all 10 had a history of alcohol, barbituate, narcotic and solvent abuse.

I do agree that staying straight/sober on the job is a must, not to mention that driving while under any influence is both irresponsible and dangerous.

Speaking for myself, I seriously doubt I'll ever do any 'hard' drugs for a number of reasons. I'm not about to get addicted to anything, I don't want to run the risk of ODing, and I figure if you're happy with what you've got, why change? I feel that cannabis should be legalised, but also be subject to the same restrictions (age, no driving, etc) as alcohol.

@Stil: If you feel like it, then go for it!