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Big headache (SPOILER)

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 8:43 am
by Fairmaiden
I seem to have met Irenicus and gone to hell far too early in the game. There are loads of places I haven't been to (Umar Hills, etc) and my party probably isn't experienced enough to to kill him. Strangely enough I killed him quite easily on the branches of the tree but in hell he's just too tough.

I've followed the advice in the strategy guides here but only get near to killing him when I turn into the slayer, but then I drop dead so easily myself in that mode.

I'm wondering if I should abandon my game and start again, making sure I'm sufficiently experienced when I meet him the next time round? Any thoughts?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 8:53 am
by kopywrite
Who's in your group and what level are they?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:00 am
by serjeLeBlade
Killing Irenicus in hell is not as difficult as it could look at first glance (and strategy guides should tell you how and why if you are willing to use them... but hey, turning into the Slayer is NOT one of the best strategies anyway!)

But the real point is, of course... what's your average party level?
I don't think the game really allows someone to get to the final battle "too early", but I could be wrong!

So tell us

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:11 am
by Fairmaiden
I'm not on my computer at home right now so I can only guess about the levels of my party members but I have Edwin, Jan, Imoen, Jaheira and Keldorn - my character is a level 15 paladin.

Edwin has some great spells but not unless we can break down Irenicus's shield, which the other 2 mages try to do with breach and lower resistance spells. If he summons things to attack Irenicus, nothing seems to have much of an effect. Edwin hasn't got the summoning skeletons spell.

I am the strongest melee fighter.

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:19 am
by kopywrite
Keldorn makes a very effective wizard slayer with his true sight and very high level dispel magic.

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:26 am
by serjeLeBlade
My bet is a 15th paladin CAN do it ;-)

I guess your group is a little lacking in simple brute strength. You have a lot of spellcasters and so you *must* be cunning and use good tactics.
Does your last save allow your party to rest and choose spell before the battle?
I could give you any amount of hints if you want to...
Another question... do you have Throne of Bhaal installed or are you planning to install it in the future?

(I'm asking you so because if you want to use TOB, its better to have it installed *before* fighting that last battle with Irenicus).

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:35 am
by Fairmaiden
Yes, I have Throne of Bhaal but no, it's not yet installed. My last save does allow us to rest. What I've trying so far is resting, creating 4 earth elementals, then putting the last tear of bhaal into the wall.

Then, when Irenicus appears, we set the elementals on his demons and then run away down to the bottom stairs.

Then I have been trying my battle tactics on him that haven't got him injured enough to kill him, so this is where I'm stumped.

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:56 am
by Troll Slayer
I had a similar problem once. It turns out that it was a bug with the game. There is a bug in the game where Irenicus will not die in hell. He gets near death or something and never dies. I did at least 2000 HP to him before I realized that I should have killed him. Make sure that you are not having the same problem. If you are, download the officla patch and run it. That should fix it. Also, try installing TOB. That might also fix it. I know you can kill him at level 15. I have done it. Without knowing what items and party members you have, it's hard to give any good advice. However, if you get reall sick and tired or trying, just put the game on easy mode. Or hack your experience to a higher level with shadowkeeper. However, I would just stick with it. Sooner or latter you will win.

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:20 am
by VonDondu
I can't remember exactly what you're up against in Hell, but here are a few general tactics you should use in a situation like that.

First of all, Jon Irenicus brings four demons with him and lets them do the fighting while he runs to the bottom of the map. You can't see him do that because he's using Mislead. I think he has two illusionary forms--one beside the demons, and one to the east. The first thing you should do is to concentrate your attacks on the demons. When they are dead, you can fillet Jon Irenicus at your leisure. :)

True Seeing and True Sight will dispel the illusions, and you can get to work on the real Jon Irenicus on the south side of the map. I can't remember exactly what protection spells he uses, but you need to dispel them. Also, in the Slayer form, he is resistant to magic and he regenerates hit points. So you need to hit him hard and fast when his defenses are down. When his Slayer form is destroyed, you'll have to fight him yet again in his human form.

As in any other combat situation when fighting a Mage, pay attention to the spells he's using, and tailor your attacks accordingly:

- If he's using Spell Turning, take down his protection with Secret Word, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Khelban's Warding Whip, or Pierce Shield. (Breach, Pierce Magic, and Dispel Magic won't help.)

- If he's using Mislead, take down his protection with True Sight or True Seeing.

- If he's using Stoneskin, Fireshield, Mantle, Improved Mantle, Protection from Magic Weapons, Protection from Normal Missiles, Absolute Immunity, etc., take down his protection with Breach.

- If he's using Spell Shield, take down his protection with Ruby Ray of Reversal, Khelban's Warding Whip, Pierce Shield, or Spell Strike. (Breach, Pierce Magic, and Dispel Magic won't help.)

- Dispel Magic might help against protection spells that can be dispelled with Dispel Magic, but if the difference in level between your characters and the enemy is too great, it won't work. Only a 26th Level Mage or Cleric or an Inquisitor 15th Level or higher can dispel Irenicus's magic effectively (since an Inquisitor casts Dispel Magic at twice his own level).

As you can see, you can cut through Irenicus's defenses if you use the proper spells.

To protect yourself from his attacks, Spell Immunity helps your Mages. (Protection from Necromancy is probably your best bet.) If I recall correctly, Irenicus summons an Efreet and casts Sunfire or Fireball, so protection from fire (spells, potions, or items) also helps.

My memory of the event is somewhat distorted because I just played BG1 last month where the monsters are easier to deal with, and before that, I played Throne of Bhaal, where the Mages make Irenicus look like a chump. The last time I fought Irenicus in Hell, Imoen was 28th Level, and she singlehandedly mopped the floor with him (and scrubbed the tub and toilet, too). I don't know how much higher in level your party needs to be before you can defeat him, but if you have nearly finished the critical path and a couple of major side-quests, you should probably be okay.

However, I think it's a shame that you missed so many side-quests in Shadows of Amn. You can't go back and do them when Shadows of Amn ends and Throne of Bhaal begins. I don't know if you have any saved games (it would be a shame if you had to start over completely), but you'll probably be alright no matter what you do.

Good luck!

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:40 am
by Andy Strawn
For me it was quite easy if you have Protection from Magic scroll and Absolute Immunity scroll, both of which I think you can purchase from Adventurer's Mart. Kill the demons (Mantle works fine, make sure to cast Resist Fear), and when he's down south cast Protection from Magic on someone and let him waste the spells on you. When he switches to melee cast Absolute Immunity and he can't hurt you. Beat him to death; he'll keep attacking the guy with Absolute Immunity.

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:42 am
by VonDondu
Originally posted by Andy Strawn
For me it was quite easy if you have Protection from Magic scroll and Absolute Immunity scroll, both of which I think you can purchase from Adventurer's Mart...
Those are good tactics, but it's a little hard to get to the Adventurer's Mart from Hell. :)

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:18 am
by Fairmaiden
Thanks to everyone for some fantastic advice - I shall have a jolly good go at him this evening. xxx

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:23 am
by serjeLeBlade
Good morning, everyone!
VonDondu, you are great.
You just happened to tell 110% of the smart things i'd want to tell to Fairmaiden while I was having some (much needed) hours of sleep instead!
Thank you!

VonDondu just explained everything useful about spells in this combat.
Let's see if this bard is able to find some other wise thing to add?

... :confused:

The following tactics worked well for me: pick one, or all, or every combination you like. Every single tactic is good against Irenicus no matter what you think of the others. They are independent, but using all is the best choice imo.

1) Draw the demons away from Irenicus at the very beginning of the battle and try to kill all of them fighting far from him (in an area of the screen where you cannot see him an so supposedly he cannot see you). It is not difficult, if you move away, the demons will follow your party, while Irenicus will stand there for several seconds casting his protective spells). You should have fought these kind of demons before, so killing them quickly should be possible for you. The demons have magic resistance so don't waste time casting spell at them, have your fighters attack them with weapons AND you spellcaster summon as many creatures as they can (any creature that survives this part of the fight will be useful in the second part!)

2) Irenicus has magic resistance and lots of protective spells... and so what? You have three mages!! I brought down all his defences with Imoen alone... ! (And her simulacrum, ok. Use Simulacrum if you can. Is the best summon spell in existence imo). So once you're done with the demons, have your mages casting at him things like pierce magic almost continuously. Pierce magic works best than other similars spells because it lowers magic resistance AND remove magical protections at the same time. Have Edwin put three Pierce Magic in a spell trigger if he can.
Once Irenicus magic resistance is gone, there's no way for him to get it back. That's the moment for your mages unleashing Horrid Wiltings and Spell Sequencers loaded with FlameArrow - FlameArrow - FlameArrow and have some much-deserved fun...

2b) Just to be sure when Irenicus magic resistance is gone or not, have someone cast magic missiles on him every now and then.

3) Use True seeing or similar spells or you'll never know if you are fighting the REAL Irenicus. In my last battle I killed him ... twice. My fault. One more Ture Seeing would have saved half of the work.

4) Get your best archer, your best bow, your best arrows, cast improved haste of him and have this character fire arrows at Irenicus continuosly (bows that create arrows work best for this). Doing this is very useful because for the best part of the fight, Irenicus protections from weapons will come and go (you cancel them, he casts it again etc) so it's good to have an almost-continuos source of damage pounding on him, taking advantage of any seconds when he appens to be vulnerable. And a fighter with a bow and Improved Haste can hit 4-8 times a round. (I hope you DO have someone good at using bows)....

5) You need someone to keep Irenicus busy also from the melee point of view or he could do annoying things like biting at your spellcaster. Please do NOT use your main character to do this! Please! ... ;)
If your main character dies, the game ends. That could be unfair but it's just the way the game works! I feel you might be losing this battle just because you want to kill him with you own hands... Don't! You have to stay well away from him!
(If your pc is really the best fighter in your group, i see you in the role of the one with the bow at point 4)... I hope you could so... this would allow your pc to kill him "with her hands" without getting killing herself in the process... !
If you have Carsomyr, You may give it to Keldorn and let him do the front-line work. But the best thing to do is to keep Irenicus surrounded by expendable summoned creatures.
Fire elementals and skeletons work well.
If you have the Crom Fayer, it's worth noting that this weapon is capable of inflicting damage on Irenicus even when his protection from magicals weapons are up (Crom Fayer is a +5 warhammer and my main character, a fighter/cleric, was wielding it).
I don't know if Carsomyr has the same power. Hope so.
(Alse hope you have one of the two, or better both!)

Good luck
I will wait for good news
;)

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:17 pm
by DrSlikk
have jahiera cast insect plague, but on a demon, not on irenicus sicne he will disappear and it will spread eventually. have edwin start with a spell like abi dalzims, but not fireball! u should go for irenicus. have keldorn use true seeing as soon as irenicus misleads/shadow doors etc. and have jan/imoen follow up /w a breach and pierce magic. use chain lighting it might help /w the demons. also make sure u put protections on ureself before u put in the tear. haste/pro. evil are important. as well as chant and defensive harmony. have ure mages use mirror image and either spell deflection or turning. if someone gets stunned or held, use dispel immediatley as they will get hit 100% and use keldorns.

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:37 pm
by VonDondu
Thanks for the compliment, serjeLeBlade. I appreciate it.

As you pointed out, the battle can certainly be melee-intensive if you want it to be, and you made some good suggestions.

As Korgan might say, there's more than one way to skin a Mage. "Just as long as ye help me plunder me tomb, I'll join ye in skinning yer Mage, if it pleases ye. The Mage'll be no danger with an axe in his belly, sure enough." :)

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 2:00 am
by serjeLeBlade
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VonDondu
Thanks for the compliment, serjeLeBlade. I appreciate it.

I definitely do appreciate your appreciation, if saying so is allowed...!
(transalates to: "I feel like beeing a new member, approval is not only welcome... its needed for the very sake of survival")

But, shouldn't we care much abuot the brave paladin gal's results instead of high-etiquette-level compliments exchange between us... ?

I can't wait to hear from her!

She may be in danger!!!