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Yep, another kit poll, resurrecting a trend here...

This time what's you guys' favorite paladin kit?

I really like them all, but I find the Inquisitor most fun to play. In a large group, he's certainly the most useful thanks to his dispel magic and true sight. Yet, IMO, he's never truly overpowered at any stage of the game (except against mages and spell-casters, of course, but you can never be too powerful against them). Just a great all-around character.

The Cavalier's actually kinda weak in the beginning parts of SoA compared to the Inquisitor or Undead Hunter, but in the later half of SoA and on into ToB he's ridiculous, so damn ridiculous that it becomes just one man's killfest and not as much fun. Especially against demons and dragons in ToB; he tears them apart. My Cavalier solo-killed Abazigal and Demogorgon and was probably the sole reason I killed Draconis without a great deal of difficulty. I've played a Monk and I don't even think he gets as overpowered as a Cavalier at the higher levels (speaking from my experience anyway).

The Undead Hunter suffers from the exact opposite dilemma from the Cavalier. The Undead Hunter is extremely overpowered in SoA, where there are a lot of undead that can't be turned yet. But as he, as well as a vanilla Paladin, a Cavalier, and a Cleric level up to higher levels, undead start getting destroyed by the turning ability, rendering an Undead Hunter's combat bonuses useless. And there are also enough negative-plane-protecting items by that time to render his most important immunity, level drain, obsolete as well. And in ToB, the demon/undead ratio pretty much flips from what it was in SoA, leaving the Cavalier to have his feast, and the undead in ToB can all be destroyed instantly. Moreover, because all of an Undead Hunter's abilities are useless by ToB, he is even weaker than a vanilla Paladin because of no lay on hands.

The vanilla Paladin is what I would pick if I wanted more of a challenge than what I would get with any of the kits. He can still be quite powerful though.

I say cavallier

Simply becouse you get spells/ loh and undead turning with little disadvantage

PLus theres already an inquisitor npc, who you can bring along for the ride

I say Cavalier also. Mostly because I like the idea of a character who is specialized in taking on dragons and demons... it is a tough job but someones gotta do it.
In SoA the Inquisitor was the most useful Paladin but like Impaler said by ToB the Cavalier really shines.
And with the Cavlier I can play my picture perfect Knight... Sword and shield style swinging a big bastard sword and wearing full plate. You gotta love it.

I agree that the Cavalier is the most powerful paladin because of the boni against demons and dragons. I appreciate the Inquisitor as well, especially for the dispel magic ability. But a Cavalier - if you get Carsomyr - can use this ability either.
The Undead Hunter is IMO completly superfluous. Even in SoA the confrontations with undead creatures - including the one's with Bodhi - aren't that difficult. Moreover: if there's plenty of excellent anti-undead equipment ans a spell like Sunray, why should you choose an Undead Hunter?

Personal favourite is Undead Hunter....not because of power but because of the concept of a hunter of the undead.

Telling the truth, I haven't tried all the kits, just Inquisitor and Undead Hunter. And I fully agree with you: Undead Hunter is completely uselless in ToB, whereas Inquisitor is very good, from start to the end.


Cheers

cavalier. i often have wished there was a handy undead hunter around in the early stages of the game, but it's not much of a problem later on, and never in ToB. I need the cavalers bonuses big time against dragons, and i love slaughtering demons single-handed.

I don't know...
I don't feel that the Inquisitor is really a paladin.

He IS cool, and a great mage killer, but he doesn't have any of the paladin abilities. I can't picture a paladin that can't heal others, can't turn undead, and so on...

A cavalier, on the other hand...

I agree with Z, the whole image of an Undead hunter is cool to me. And since Keldorn is an Inquisitor, I didn't want to play that, and the Cavelier is just the paladin image that I hate.

i still like undead hunters

Definitely the Inquisitor.

The misunderstood paladin - while even some of their brethren sneer at their lack of REAL paladin abilities p), these stalwart defenders of good use the powers of their deities to strike out at those magic wielders who would cut down the innocent, and yes, even their REAL paladin brethren. Few things anger this warrior more than seeing innocents helpless under such fiendish spells as confusion, fear, chaos, hold, or charm, or seeing malefactors laugh smugly behind their magic defenses.


And practically, they can't be beat.

Undead Hunters, as mentioned, become almost useless beyond Chapter 2. And while Cavaliers are handy against demons and dragons, and both become more common in TOB, I'd still rather have an Inquisitor against Draconis than a Cavalier.

True Seeing and Dispel Magic cast in ONE turn (virtually instantaneous). And Dispel Magic casts at twice his level. So while a mage will be useless while 2/3 of the team are running around confused because a) he'll be lucky to get the spell off before he gets disrupted and b) he's almost never high enough level to undo the enemy spellcaster's work, the Inquisitor's quick and very powerful dispel will have the team up and running again in no time. One of very few, if not the only, game-changing kits.

Inquisitors rule!!!

I say that the Undead Hunter is by Far the best since he is immune to level drain and does more damage against ALL undead. he is a very important person, I think that Keldorn should of been an Undead Hunter (I would use him if he was an Undead hunter).
as for the Cavalier I never have any trouble with Demons or Dragons so what's the point of having a bonus there? the undead hunter has level drain immunity which is needed for getting people like Korgan to stay in your group from having to face undead.
also the undead hunter is immune to hold which is a common undead condition as well. Lay on Hands isn't that great anyway so an undead hunter is by far the best (I don't know how many times I sent him in a room alone and had everyone else giving him as much arch attack support as possible yet still run away if the undead got too close).
the Inquisitor has too many penalities on it, from no spells, he can't heal himself, can't turn undead. as for his 2 spells that he can cast they are not that great at all and it's a mage's job to cast those 2 spells not a warrior's job.
the main paladin isn't that good either but he is better then the inquisitor since he doesn't have all of those penalities.

Even though I always play Good-aligned characters, I can't really get into the role of a Paladin, so I have never played one as my main character. So I have to approach this poll by asking myself, "Which kit would be best if one of my main character's companions was a Paladin?" I'd probably answer "Inquisitor" just because I was so impressed by Keldorn. I didn't really miss Lay on Hands and Turn Undead, but I really would miss True Seeing and Dispel Magic if Keldorn wasn't an Inquisitor.

Let me ask a question, if you please. When your main character is a Paladin, how do you select other party members? For example, would you allow a Thief or a Mage into the party? What about characters who have a Chaotic alignment? It's difficult for me to imagine a Paladin who would tolerate a group member who wasn't Lawful Good or Neutral Good or anyone who wasn't a Paladin, a Fighter, a Ranger, or a Cleric, unless the Paladin considered accompanying such a character to be a "quest" in its own right. For example, the Paladin might consider it to be his duty to protect the soul of a Bhaalspawn, especially if the Bhaalspawn in question could have a significant impact on the fate of the Realms. But why, for example, would a Paladin recruit someone like Edwin or Korgan? They might be good at their craft and therefore useful to the party, but surely Paladins don't believe that the end justifies the means. What are your thoughts?

Just use your imagination and ignore the rpg naysayers

Like probably everyone else I once tried to form the perfect party (from a butt-kicking perspective, of course) using only NPCs.

The foundation of that uber party I considered to be an Inquisitor. I played my first game with Imoen, Aerie, Viconia, Haer'Dalis, Mazzy, and a monk. I had four spellcasters and all the liches and powerful mages were a pain. Second time through I took Keldorn, Aerie, Imoen, Cernd, a berserker, and an archer. I hardly ever used Ruby Ray, Warding Whip, etc. and had little problem with people wandering around confused or in fear. I couldn't believe how much an Inquisitor changed the way I played. So I definitely wanted an Inquisitor. Keldorn was a little too weak in some key stats (dex), so I decided for The Ultimate Party I needed the PC to be an inq.

For the rest of the party, I wanted some serious beef for TOB, a cleric, adequate thieving skills, and a couple of spellcasters. So I ended up with Mazzy, Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, and Imoen.

A friend saw that and immediately piped up "A paladin would never travel with three evil characters." (He was one of those irritating AD&D rpg purists.)

"Role-playing? He wants role-playing? I'll give him role-playing..."

My character is not one of those annoying, self-righteous bastards who look down on everyone else. He is a stalwart champion of good and would never condone any evil act, but he is not a real stickler for the rules. Particularly after seeing how Sarevok tried manipulating the machinery of government to start a horrific war, he is firmly convinced that the spirit, not letter, of the law is what is important. If championing good means going against convention, tough for convention.

This attitude has gotten him in trouble with his Order. Combined with what his brothers in faith term his "warped sense of humor", it has led to his being given leave of normal duties and ordered to go up north "or somewhere" and bring the light of the Order to distant towns.

And his sense of humor is a little strange. It amuses him no end to set forth on a crusade for justice and right with aid from some of the blackest hearted rogues he has ever run across. Listening to Korgan grumble, Edwin whine, and Viconia lash out over doing yet another good deed tickles his fancy and he justifies his enjoyment by reasoning (validly, he believes) that such characters are better kept in check than wandering loose about their own business.

After being kidnapped outside Baldur's Gate, he has picked up the following companions:

Imoen: his free-spirited and good-hearted companion from Candlekeep whom he considers his little sister (which, it turns out, she is).

Mazzy: he considers Mazzy a kindred spirit. Valiant and noble yet level-headed and full of common sense, Mazzy in his eyes is a paladin in all but name. She has agreed to aid him after being saved from a Shadow's dungeon.

Korgan: if Mazzy has any fault, it is that she is a little too serious. He feels a bit of kinship with Korgan. He is the only one of the party with whom he can sit back, enjoy an ale, talk about last night's game, and try to pick up rumors without making the locals suspicious or uneasy. He first met Korgan while the dwarf was looking for help in pillaging the local crypts. Concerned by the reputation of the tombs and fearing what the dwarf might unleash, he decided to shepherd him down there and provide some restraint. Since then he has determined that, while blustering, crude, selfish, and all but lacking any moral code at all, Korgan is not truly evil but is best not left to his own devices.

Edwin: he does not like Edwin. The mage is secretive, untrustworthy, arrogant, and serves only his own ends. He is also a constant complainer. Edwin is, however, a powerful mage; and one whose power he feels is better used for good than for Mae'Var's shadow thief guild. His abilities as an inquisitor keep Edwin more or less respectful and in line, but neither trusts the other. He keeps a close eye on Edwin....

Viconia: Viconia makes him uneasy, for the simple reason that he finds himself falling in love with her. From knowing her previously, he knew she was not on the surface for evil designs, but seemed to truly wish just to be left alone and be allowed to make a normal living. After rescuing her from the injustice of a lynch mob and listening to further stories of her life on the surface, he has become convinced that he needs to keep her in his party both for her safety and the safety of others. He is struggling against the feelings he is beginning to have for her. He finds her speech and seeming lack of morals horrifying at times, but he also finds himself pitying her and believing that there is a kernel of good within her. Unlike many in his Order he does not believe that anyone is unredeemable or purely evil - his own blood is proof of that - and he has hopes of turning Viconia from darkness to light. And what more noble task, he asks himself as he wrestles with his thoughts late at night, can a Paladin do?

Taa-Daa!!!

I just don't know how (or why?) to use any of these kits.
I guess it's my fault!
I always think that Barbarians and Berserkers have bonuses that work against everything, better scores, and more immunities when they rage.

Even a priest, by means of his spells, could get more bonuses and better immunities (and even give them to others).

The Inquisitor, then, is the saddest kit of them all! No spells at all and his super dispel magic dispels our stuff too!


@Nygma: great post anyway, I liked it, and it's a dm telling you!

@serje - Glad you liked it. And a dm, no less!

If you haven't tried the inquisitor you really should. I had the same misgivings when I was looking at the paladin kits. One or two immunities (level drain looked like a winner when I was struggling with vampires first time through), a few pluses to hit and damage, and... dispel magic? I never used that spell with my mages because it never seemed to work. On the rare occasions that it did, it just wiped out all my buffs.

Inquisitor was definitely lame, I thought. Then I tried Keldorn.

Wow.

Magic users become MUCH easier to deal with. One of the first things they do is a contingency and put up a bunch of protections. One dispel magic instantly cast ahead of your charging tanks leaves them open for a pounding they never recover from. If another contigency goes off, simply hit them again and finish them off. Even liches are vulnerable to this, which makes the inq. imo more valuable than an undead hunter.

I never could deal with confused/charmed/held/paralyzed characters. Dispel magic from priests and mages hardly ever worked. Hold/charm person never seemed to work. One dispel from the inq. though instantly frees everybody. It also works in dispelling magically induced fear, though remove/resist fear works about as well. And I found you never worry about dispelling your tank's buffs as long as you can dispel his confusion before he takes out all your mages.

Then there's True Sight, which is a seventh level spell that the inq. gets right away, plus another every 3 levels. Invaluable against would-be backstabbers and Draconis.

As for the tradeoffs...

Turn undead is moot if you have a cleric. The paladin will have a much lower level turn and you'll want him swinging a sword most likely anyway.

1-3 level spells imo are almost worthless, especially since your cleric will have more low-level spells than he will know what to do with. Draw upon holy might, restoration, healing spells, and lay on hands would be nice, but if choosing between those and dispel magic and True Sight, I like the inquisitor's abilities better.

In defence of Paladinhood...

It's difficult for me to imagine a Paladin who would tolerate a group member who wasn't Lawful Good or Neutral Good or anyone who wasn't a Paladin, a Fighter, a Ranger, or a Cleric, unless the Paladin considered accompanying such a character to be a "quest" in its own right.

Hmmmmmm....I take it you're not a fan of the original "Dragonlance" books then? If you haven't read them this won't make much sense, but for those of you who have, all I have to say is Sturm and Raistlin.

Not all Paladins are stuffy, pig-headed goons. Consider that what a Paladin REALLY is, in D&D terms at least, is a defender of the faith. The clerics find out what God wants, and the Paladins make it happen. Their personality should be a direct reflection of their religion. Obviously a Paladin in the service of Tyr isn't going to be too chummy with any thief types, however a different Paladin, serving Heimdall, will travel with just about anybody who's willing to kill giants! ;-)

And finally, look at King Arthur...the archtypical paladin. Who was his most trusted friend and advisor? Merlin...the Incubus sorcerer. ;-)

Just a little food for thought....okay a snack, more like.

Undead Hunters are USELESS, just give ANY NPC the mace of distruption +2 and let him block the doorway or just keep the undeads busy (vampires(prefering those below 8500exp), shadows whatever) And let your CAVALIER (give him *x2 in axes) Azuredge and let him slay those undeads as they were GOBLINS! and have your cleric turning undead in the background...( or just your cavalier) =)

CONCLUSION: CAVALIERS ROCKS!!! Conclusion ended...

Originally posted by dios
Undead Hunters are USELESS, just give ANY NPC the mace of distruption +2 and let him block the doorway or just keep the undeads busy (vampires(prefering those below 8500exp), shadows whatever) And let your CAVALIER (give him *x2 in axes) Azuredge and let him slay those undeads as they were GOBLINS! and have your cleric turning undead in the background...( or just your cavalier) =)

CONCLUSION: CAVALIERS ROCKS!!! Conclusion ended...

how ironic that BOTH parts of the mace of distruption are in places With level drainers.........so ironic. it's stupid to declare a class useless just because there's some item hidden somewhere in the game that does one of their advanages.
Cavaliers aren't good for the following reasons.
Cavalier's advanages.
bonus +3 when fighting dragons and demons, I never have trouble with dragons or demons anyway, most of the time I beat them on my first try without even reloading. just use pierce magic/shield on a dragon and have everyone slash at him (or use their arch attacks).
for demons there's something called "protection from evil" that stops them from attacking you so why do you need a bonus to fight them?
May cast remove fear one time per day (per level)
Immune to all fear and morale failures just how often do you have to face your fear in BG2? it's not that good. and how often do your close up fighters get so badly injured that they have a morale failure and run away? (and if they were injured that much then they need to run away and use potions).
Immune to all poison effects how deadly is poison? it's only deadly if the person is someone like a mage or another low hp class or someone with hardly any HP left. there's "remove poison" to get rid of it before the poison does much damage and just about any fighter type class can take the poison damage in almost any situation that they'll get into
20% resistance to fire and acid good for fighting dragons but just how often is a fire/acid type attack used? it's not that good really and like I said before about dragon's they fall on my first try usually.
disadvanages
cannot use missle weapons that's not much of a loss for a fighter type class I admit, it's only a slight loss if you have to send someone in a room alone to face undead (like an undead hunter).
argurements about the mace of distruption making the undead hunter useless.
-the mace makes you immune to level drain so just send anyone in using it into a room with undead to take care of them you forget that MOST fighter type classes and NPC's in the game (except for Anomen) don't use the mace as their main weapon. chances are unless you use a cleric in your group (that can wear the necklace to make you immune to level drain). is the only person in your group with points in mace. also the Undead Hunter will be able to do more damage on undead from his +3 against All undead types (including liches and Kangaxx) so unless your fighter is built like Korgan is (uses two weapons instead of a one handed weapon) then your fighter will have a very hard time against undead, and they're usually like 6 level draining undead in every room where they are.
now lets take a look at the undead hunters stats like we did to the cavaliers
advanages
+3 damage against all undead creatures undead are VERY common in BG2 so that is a very important thing to have because lots of undead have some deadly conditions so it is important to take them out as quickly as possible
Immune to hold hold is the other most common thing for undead to use on you, that would make a warrior with the mace of distruption useless since they would be frozen in the middle of a room and they would soon be surrounded by undead.
Immune to Level Drain this is the BEST advanage in the entire game, with immunity to level drain you have a super undead fighter, the undead will have a hard time against an undead hunter even with their large numbers, and since they can't hold him they will not be able to do much damage to him at all (unless the undead hunter is at a Very low level at the time).
disadvanages
may not use lay on hands ability this is supposed to be a paladin ablity but I call it a joke to count it as one since 2 of the 4 paladin classes can't use it. as for what the skill does it just heals your caster a little. it doesn't heal them up enough it's not worth it.
there was some take here about (or maybe in another thread) that undead hunters are unless in TOB due to so few undead and so many demons and dragons, but that isn't true, there are still level drainers. there are vampirc mind flayers and some guys that don't look like they can level drain Can, also the "impostor" and his servants are level draining undead that don't give you much time to prepare for battle due to how it starts up.

also no dios I'm not trying to flame you (quote used) I'm trying to say why that I think that Undead Hunters are the best paladin class.
I wonder who voted for normal paladins?

Originally posted by MasterDarkNinja
bonus +3 when fighting dragons and demons, I never have trouble with dragons or demons anyway, most of the time I beat them on my first try without even reloading. just use pierce magic/shield on a dragon and have everyone slash at him (or use their arch attacks).
for demons there's something called "protection from evil" that stops them from attacking you so why do you need a bonus to fight them?
May cast remove fear one time per day (per level)
Immune to all fear and morale failures just how often do you have to face your fear in BG2? it's not that good. and how often do your close up fighters get so badly injured that they have a morale failure and run away? (and if they were injured that much then they need to run away and use potions).
Immune to all poison effects how deadly is poison? it's only deadly if the person is someone like a mage or another low hp class or someone with hardly any HP left. there's "remove poison" to get rid of it before the poison does much damage and just about any fighter type class can take the poison damage in almost any situation that they'll get into
20% resistance to fire and acid good for fighting dragons but just how often is a fire/acid type attack used? it's not that good really and like I said before about dragon's they fall on my first try usually.
disadvanages
cannot use missle weapons that's not much of a loss for a fighter type class I admit, it's only a slight loss if you have to send someone in a room alone to face undead (like an undead hunter).
argurements about the mace of distruption making the undead hunter useless.
-the mace makes you immune to level drain so just send anyone in using it into a room with undead to take care of them you forget that MOST fighter type classes and NPC's in the game (except for Anomen) don't use the mace as their main weapon. chances are unless you use a cleric in your group (that can wear the necklace to make you immune to level drain). is the only person in your group with points in mace. also the Undead Hunter will be able to do more damage on undead from his +3 against All undead types (including liches and Kangaxx) so unless your fighter is built like Korgan is (uses two weapons instead of a one handed weapon) then your fighter will have a very hard time against undead, and they're usually like 6 level draining undead in every room where they are.
now lets take a look at the undead hunters stats like we did to the cavaliers
advanages
+3 damage against all undead creatures undead are VERY common in BG2 so that is a very important thing to have because lots of undead have some deadly conditions so it is important to take them out as quickly as possible
Immune to hold hold is the other most common thing for undead to use on you, that would make a warrior with the mace of distruption useless since they would be frozen in the middle of a room and they would soon be surrounded by undead.
Immune to Level Drain this is the BEST advanage in the entire game, with immunity to level drain you have a super undead fighter, the undead will have a hard time against an undead hunter even with their large numbers, and since they can't hold him they will not be able to do much damage to him at all (unless the undead hunter is at a Very low level at the time).
disadvanages
may not use lay on hands ability this is supposed to be a paladin ablity but I call it a joke to count it as one since 2 of the 4 paladin classes can't use it. as for what the skill does it just heals your caster a little. it doesn't heal them up enough it's not worth it.
there was some take here about (or maybe in another thread) that undead hunters are unless in TOB due to so few undead and so many demons and dragons, but that isn't true, there are still level drainers. there are vampirc mind flayers and some guys that don't look like they can level drain Can, also the "impostor" and his servants are level draining undead that don't give you much time to prepare for battle due to how it starts up.

Just one thing first up... You keep noting Kangaxx, as if the undead hunter has any sort of realistic bonus against him, news flash, anyone with a protection from undead scroll and a +4 weapons can kill him, and undead hunters arnt immune to imprisonment


Vampires are not hard protection from evil does *NOT* do anything aside from -2 hit -2 dmg against non gated deamons

Anti undead items : Azuredge, Runehammer, Mace of Disruption, Daystar, Helm of brilliance, protection from undead
Anti undead spells : False dawn, Sunray
Anti lvl drain items : Mace of disruption, Runehammer, Angurdavadal, Spectral brand, Amulet of power
Anti undead abilities : Turn undead

Vampires are ****y cats, they fall to anything you throw at them before they can get anywhere near your party, they have weak hp's do squat dmg have crap ai and no descent resistances or immunities.
two bursts of sunfire one from daystar and one from the helm of brilliance, clears any room of undead so does turn undead, or any decent lvl mage spell

The sad fact is, Vamps are one trick dogs.. And its not even a good trick, lvl drain is weak and they have to get next to you to do and even if they make it there, against a solid fighter they might live long enough to hit him once, and drain two lvls.. which can be promptly restored (with a fourth lvl spell!)

Undead hunters just play up to your comfort curve as you can be as careless and witless as you like around undead and have no
fear of lvl drain, they play up to want to want.. A Character that requires 0 effort against one of the game irksome nasties

Barbarians, clerics, Mages all kill undead faster and with the right set need no worry about lvl drain

But theres nothing in the game that has Cav boni against the big deamonic nasties,

Marriliths, Pit feinds, Baalors, Monkey boy, Deamon knights and a host of others...

Which all have many elemental resists / immunities, innate skills, bags of hit points and high dmg good thaco mellee attacks, wicked saves and a moderate lvl of magic resistance

Theres two anti deamon weapons in the game, ones a +2 mace that cant hit any feiend worth hitting the other is Foebane, which I have to admit is vere nice

Theres two anti deamon spell, Bolt of glory which takes to long to cast its just not worth it and protection from evil which gives the a mediocre -2 to hit / dmg vs ungated feiends

Thats my 2cents but I have one large bone to pick...

You say your being just in your character anylization but your also giving *Facts* that are absolute crap,

20% fire resistance, no one uses fire dmg?

Fire giants, burning men, fire elementals, flaming skulls, two red dragons, everything that uses firesheild red and almost every mage in the game, meteor storm, firestorm, aura of flaming death, flame strike, fireball, sunfire, incendiery cloud..

Need I go on? All those spells and enemies are you will face from rare, to common, to prolific throughout the entire game.

Poison immunity?

Marriliths do +5 poison dmg per second, so do vortex and mutated spiders.. and your saying it doesnt bother you? Not only does poison dmg hurt, it destroys your innitiative and messes up your ai and fighting abilities until you get rid of it

a massive number of traps use poison dmg, and your cavallier can stomp through them without fear

true though that acid dmg is fairly rare, when it does come it comes hard, in the case of black dragon and green dragon breathe.. and there are almost no items that give you protection from it

Dragon fear, symbol fear and in the early game, horror will couse you some pain, but not the cavallier and fear immunity items are equally rare

and in conclusion...

I take my hat to the only *Real* undead hunter in the game...

Anomen with Turn undead on so poot and to you lovers of the undead hunter kit.. I will say no more

Disclaimer : Everything in this post is imhop and non of it is meant as a personall slur, if you take it that way.. Condier it cheerfully withdrawn