GameBanshee Forums

As always more politics etc.
Sept 11th in 2 weeks more or less.
I know that the US is going to do something to mark the day.
Should the rest of the world follow as well?
I know people died.
And what i will say now will sound cruel and heartless.....
But i dont really see it as a big loss.
Final figures came down to less than 3000.

More people have died in other regions of the world.
Millions die on a monthly basis in Africa.
Millions died in a genocide in Rwanda.
Recently it was in the news that the Northern Alliance is responsible for war crimes.
I will start a new thread on that later on.
Bosnia, Aceh, East Timor, Palestine and Israel, Kashmir, Iraq, Afghanistan.
People have died in larger numbers in these areas for a longer time.
And suffered far more for a longer period as well.

I find it hypocrictical that we hold a memorial for the americans, but people who suffered more, died more violent deaths etc, are not mentioned at all at any point.
Flame away, but when Sept 11th comes around, i am gonna ***** about the hypocrasy (not here)
Ignore all the stuff and pass it as a normal day.

I dont mean to offend, but that is how i feel.
Flame away.

Edit: So the topic of discussion is that should the world as in the rest of teh countries do something to remember those who died on Sept 11th?
Most likely this thread is to controversial for peoples tastes....

No worries, Fas. I mean it was a tragedy but since a week after it happened I felt it was time to move on in our lives. I feel really bad for all the people who were affected personally by the tragedy and I continue to feel bad for them. It was a horrible and tragic event and lets leave it at that. All this American Pride is ok, but I tend not to like pride a whole lot. It leads to blind confidence, which leads to over confidence and that is one thing I blatenly hate-Over Confidence. It gets people in too much trouble. And as far as bringing the country together-well-I havent felt that way-Ive kind of wanted to move to Canada since the incident. But thats just the way I feel.

I think the mourning on the 1-year marking since Sept. 11th is REQUIRED. But only here in the USA. If other countries feel they were affected by the tragedy, then maybe they should do it too, but it shouldnt be required for the entire globe to do the mourning.

Fas, Im glad you brought up East Timor-I did a project based on the genocide there-almost no one in my entire school knows what happened there, and it was BAD. But yet no one recognizes it.

So in conclusion-I feel bad for the people of Sept. 11th-the USA should mourn on that day, but the rest of the world should only recognize what happened and move on. Maybe it would be best for the USA to actually notice all the other tragedies that occur in the globe.

I also hope I didnt offend anyone, I really feel sensitive about the enitire subject, though.

Your words are well chosen, Fas. I agree with what you've said, as well as Tyb's additions.

There are many people who were directly affected by the events of sept 11, here is the US, and across the globe. I know people who worked in the WTC, each one of them is alive; that is fortunate. Obviously, some 3000 others, were not so lucky and their family members and loved ones will forever be affected. It is a cruel fate but as you point out, it happens everywhere and has happened on much larger scales.

So come this Sept 11th; sure it will be an odd day. I'll reflect on quite a bit and be thankful none of my own loved ones were taken in that tragedy. But as I previously said, your words are well spoken.

No doubt it will be a media circus here in the US.

@fas

I had a friendly debate with a friend about this. In his opinion 3000 people dying in a building was not a great tragedy compared to 1 million dying of AIDS per month or 500,000 dying from starvation, but due to the attack there would be 500,000 more people dying from starvation per month (a tad exaggerated, but you get the idea), and that was the real tragedy...

I personally do not agree with him on this, but I thought it's an interesting point of view.

Ned re-reading what i wrote, i think i could have be more subtle, but wont change it now.
I know alot of people were hurt.
Like i said before my cousin was in building 5 of the WTC.
He survived, but alot of people lost lives.
If i were american i would certain do something.
I would expect something.
If it happened in Pakistan i would expect something.
I would feel something.
But i would expect the whole world, like a Latin American who isnt affected by it to do something.
And i dont people should be expected to do something...if they are not american.

I agree with both Tyb and Ned, that the US should do something.
But the world doesnt really need to do anything.

Vicsun...it is not a great tradgey.
It is a tragedy, but not on massive proportions that the US media makes it out to be.
I would agree with your friend

Originally posted by CM
----partial of entire post----
And what i will say now will sound cruel and heartless.....
But i dont really see it as a big loss.
Final figures came down to less than 3000.

I am sorry to hear that anyone would say such a thing. Fas, you decry the deaths of people Africa, and yet cannot find it in your heart to think of those killed in the US? Why? I simply do not understand. A life is a life, and it is equally tragic when that life is lost unjustly through violence whether that life is American, African, Chinese, or Brazilian. (It should make no difference, but I would note that the deaths in the World Trade Center included peoples from (I think) 130 nations around the world.)

Please re-consider what you have posted. I do not wish to think ill of any member of this board, but this post has truly saddened me.

Der Moench, it is a loss, a tragedy yes.
People did die, but it was nothing the media seems to protray.
A loss compared to what others have suffered.
It is minimal.
I do believe the US should do something.
But i dont believe that people outside the US need to show solidarity or anything.
Individuals may wish to...but i dont think the whole world needs to mourn it as an official thing.

Millions died in Rwanda. You hear nothing for them.
The US vetoed a facting UNSC resolution saying that there was no genocide.
And the rest of the world watched on and did nothing.
You dont hear a media blitz on this.
You dont hear people holding ceremonies to remember the people who died.

I see it hypocritical, that since 3000 died in the US we must hold a ceremony world wide.
Millions have died all around teh world on a monthly basis.
Nearly 2000 or more have died in secterian violence in India in the past 4 months.
Women burned alive, men chopped up alive.
The media doesnt even cover it.
It is a loss indeed, but it aint that big compared to what other people have suffered around the world.

If you hold a day to remember all those who died in Rwanda, etc etc and hold one for the US as well.
I will be more than willing to accept.
But to hold a day just for what happened in teh US and forget about the rest i will not accept that.

One life is one life.
Tragedy is tragedy.
I dont see why there must be a memorial for Sept 11th and not the millions who have died at other times.

Re: Re: Sept 11th

Originally posted by der Moench


I am sorry to hear that anyone would say such a thing. Fas, you decry the deaths of people Africa, and yet cannot find it in your heart to think of those killed in the US? Why? I simply do not understand. A life is a life, and it is equally tragic when that life is lost unjustly through violence whether that life is American, African, Chinese, or Brazilian. (It should make no difference, but I would note that the deaths in the World Trade Center included peoples from (I think) 130 nations around the world.)

Please re-consider what you have posted. I do not wish to think ill of any member of this board, but this post has truly saddened me.

(note the part I put in italics in your quotation)

As you said a death is equally tragic whether it's an American African Chinese or Brazilian person. In this case you should mourn the 3000 people who die per day in the world from AIDS or starvation as well as the 3000 who died in WTC. But many people don't even think that deaths occur in other places than the US... I believe that what he said was that it's not a great tragedy compared to the tragedies in the rest of the world.

Understandable

When innocent people die because of the belief's of another it is a horrible horrible day. One death, twenty deaths, 3000, a million. All are horribe horrible trajedys. It is in my opinion that the terrorist attacks last year on sept 11'th struck more than the US. Considering that the buildings held people and business that stretch the globe I can see why others would also feel pain. Comparing 3000 to 3 million sure seems to make sense, but at that point the people (innocent) who died become numbers rather than faces. I believe it is a mandatory day of memorial for all of us who feel loss from the trajedy. It is irrelavant where you claim citizenship. As I feel for the innocents that have to deal with suicide bombers daily I feel for the unprovoked deaths that happend on my home countries soil about a year ago. It is not at ALL hypocracy. It is meerly a suggestion to look at a horrible day and think about the loss's. An innocent death is no worse nor no better than any other innocent death no matter what you claim allegiance to. 3000 Americans died on Sept 11th in the year 2001, many more people die daily in our country to from sickness and murder and those are people we should more too but Sept 11th is medialized (new word) because of the horrific reasons behind it. And yes it seems to be more important only because it happened to us, the loudest mother f'ers around (media wise) so you better believe were going to let the world know.

The US is thick headed. But an innocent life lost is an innocent life lost, I will morn the deaths of many of my fellow americans and the families who lost them. I may not morn the deaths of those in Afghanastan (innocents) who died, or in china or in etc etc. But that is meerly because one can not morn all sadness or one would spend an enternity in tears.

thug

Originally posted by CM
<snip>
But i dont really see it as a big loss.
Final figures came down to less than 3000.
<snip>

Actually I must say I see it as an extreemly big lose, not so much due to the "only" (only - can't say only about this) ~3000 casulties, but as a symbol of how fragile the world is at the hands of these mad terrorists.

And that is the reason that I think a mark should be made in the calender as to remind ourselves as to how fragile peace is and to
show that terrorisme should not be tolerated.

Never bow to terrorisme - that is what need to be remembered.

Thank Vic that is what i meant.
If we hold day to mourn all the lives lost including the ones in the WTC.
I will be the first in line.
But a day just for the WTC...i dont like the idea that saying since it happened in teh US we hold a day.
Happens in Africa it aint all that important.

eh

One loss of innocent life for a horrificly wrong reason is one too many. To say that any amount is minimal to another amount is taking the humanity out of the incident. Sure it will be over pressed ( Sept 11th ) but that is beside the point. It is not that other countries have to partake in the morning, its that other countries should want too. I take a lot of crap on boards and on the internet for being a American Patriot, but the fact is America does a LOT for this world and sure our losses should not be held higher then anyone elses it is just the fact that more people pay attention to use because of what we do. Therefor more press.

It is my honest opinion that if you look at the day Sept 11th and think "Wow why should the world be worring worse things happen all the time" then I think you have the wrong idea of why people even mourn. Its not about us being better or our deaths counting more, its about the fact its still fresh in all our minds. Its about the fact it happened to one of the most powerful places in the world. Its about the fashion of HOW it happened I mean sure millions die daily from sickness and famine everywhere but that is a constant problem that is being addressed daily by lots of countries. Two planes crashed into a set of buildings, this is not of the norm and to be crude it is a media blessing. Of course the media is going to feed off it, just like they would anything else of horrific trajedy.

I will reterate. An American death is in no way worth more than any other persons death. But to tell me that it is wrong for others "who have nothing to do with it" to mourn is horribly wrong. As a HUMAN it is implied that seeing innocents die horrificly one would expect to feel sorry.

I too am apalled at the fact one person could think that because of Nationality one shouldn't care, or because of other incidents that one should take numbers into consideration rather than the plain simple fact that innocence died.

Re: Re: Sept 11th

Originally posted by Xandax


Actually I must say I see it as an extreemly big lose, not so much due to the "only" (only - can't say only about this) ~3000 casulties, but as a symbol of how fragile the world is at the hands of these mad terrorists.

And that is the reason that I think a mark should be made in the calender as to remind ourselves as to how fragile peace is and to
show that terrorisme should not be tolerated.

Never bow to terrorisme - that is what need to be remembered.

But the world has been dealing with terrorism in one form or another for longer than 1998 (when the US embassies were attacked). The Phillipines has been dealing with it since the 80s. India since the 80s in kashmir (if you believe what they say). Spain ever since ETA was created. Israel since the 1960s. All these countries suffered due to terrorism. Why wasnt there a day back then? Israel has suffered by far the most. More than 3000 dead. More like a 10's of thousand dead in attacks by the PLO and others. Whether this is terrorism is seperate issue, but innocent people died then as well. There was no day for that.

I may not morn the deaths of those in Afghanastan (innocents) who died, or in china or in etc etc. But that is meerly because one can not morn all sadness or one would spend an enternity in tears.

Now if i was a real fundamentalist muslim, i would say what makes the attacks on the US so special that their lives have to mourned but not the ones in the afghanistan or china? One can not mourn all the sadness in the world, so we just mourn for the ones in the US? That is not an issue. As i know you didnt mean it in that way at all. You said it as an american who has seen a great tragedy on your country. Isrealis feel the same way. So do the Iraqis or the Palestinians about their losses.

Honestly i feel only the people in Africa have the right to claim a day for those who to mourn.

Edit: I just saw your latest post.
You say 2 planes crashing into a plane is not a normal thing and thus it is tragic and is closer in peoples memory.
People being butchered in the millions, with machetes aint normal either.
It is far more tragic as it is the ugly side of the what happened.
You dont see people holding days for these genocided in Rwanda.
You are a patriot, and have every right to be.
But i dont you should expect others to hold a day of mourn when they arent affected.
Has any other country held a day or even a second of mourning for all those dying in Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan?
No.
It is a national thing.
I as a Pakistani am in no way affected by what happens in Latin America.
I may feel regret and a certain pang of sadness.
But that doesnt mean pakistan should hold a day of mournig for those dying in Jamaica.

Originally posted by CM
But a day just for the WTC...i dont like the idea that saying since it happened in teh US we hold a day.
Happens in Africa it aint all that important.

well, there were many people from many different countries on the planes and in the offices.

for example, i can't remember the exact figure, but there were a large number of british casualties, far higher than from any terrorist attack in recent times in this country. irrespective of where it happened, in Britain it had a direct impact, and while all the deaths were tragic, there is definitely justification for a rememberance ceremony.

still, i'm afraid i must agree that if there weren't British casualties in a disaster and it was a less developed country - take the flooding in many third world countries over the past year or two as an example - there would almost certainly be less public reaction in this country. sad, but probably true.

Here

I never implied that anyone should do anything about a damn thing. In my opinion as a human one would mourn the day considering its a year old, making it a day of rememberance for the US is our decision, for any other country they can do whatever the hell they want. It is not forced and shouldn't be. there will be many americans who wont mourn because some people are cruel. As a HUMAN you should understand that death is death and that the media has its right to do whatever it wants with it based on our constitution. If you dont want to mourn it then dont its not anything that is implied to have to do. It is meerly just something that happened and people feel bad. This is an redudant thread because you dislike the idea of people having to mourn the day in other countries. While the fact is no one has to do anything, if you want to mourn rwanda on sept 11th go for it, it is a worth cause to be sorry for. But like i posted before. If I was to mourn for all the death and decay I would be busy all the damn time.

and yes large planes crashing into buildings is unusual, the deaths in rwanda are horrible and disgusting but you have to consider that it isn't something new and different. New and Different is what makes headlines, the news isn't here to please you me or anyone, its there to get ratings. Im done here.

As you are done, i will say just two things and leave it at that. You state: This is an redudant thread because you dislike the idea of people having to mourn the day in other countries. I dont disagree with the mourning if they wish to do so. However i do disagree with the idea that other countries should do so officially. I find it hypocritical that you do it for the 3000 in the WTC attack, yet forget or ignore (which i find more appalling) those millions in other countries.

My view is simple, if you do something for the WTC, do something for the rest. If one tragedy is the same as another. Do something for them as well. I find it horrible, that we do something for sept 11th but not for the rest. You should do something for all as humans we should care for everybody and hold similar standards.

Did the world or more specifically the US mourn Hiroshima or Nagasaki anniversaries only a few weeks ago? I'm not sure since I was at home in my good old terrorist supporting state where I was born , jk about the 2nd part.

The US should mourn and do whatever they wish, but the rest of the world shouldn't be required too. Thousands more innocent people have died in Afghanistan over the past few months mainly because of the US. The genocide in Rwanda isn't talked that much about. Newsweek rarely mentions a thing about all the civil wars in Africa. What about the hundreds of Muslims burnt to death by Hindu mobs in Ahmedebad.

As sad as it is, if the US wasn't a superpower or a world power almost no other nation would care. Thousands, milllions die every month.

I wonder what the country plans for Sept 11. 2002? Anybody know what's going to happen?

@ Fas, no issues my friend. On some levels I agree with you, it is better to move on than linger over the past, but in other ways I disagree, I think it is important to remind ourselves that the world is still not an entirely safe place and regrettably, one of the easiest ways to do it is to have one of the most economically and politically powerful nations to stand up and shout.

I think a lot of people are missing Fas's point. He agrees that what happened is a tragedy, and he thinks they should be mourned. What he's getting at though, is why should the rest of the world mourn for the Americans on 9/11, when the Americans don't mourn whats happened to the millions of other people on a global basis. It's all fine and good that someone might show condolences, and all, but that, IMHO, is as far as they should feel compelled to go. What America does for this is their own concern, and not that of the world.

Once the States start bringing in days of memory for people in Rwanda, the Middle East, and other such places were terrorism is a day-to-day fear factor, then my opinion might change. Until then, though, I'm living my life as normal, and won't be doing anything special on 9/11 this year, because honestly, it is no more tragic then whats been happening in Israel and Pakistan for the last several years.