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Volia new thread!

The link subject to discussion is: gone...sleepy editted it out and i dont have a copy of the link.
Oh well....what do we do now...i still want to discuss her and the views shared by others.

*feels silly*
Who's Oriana Fallaci?

Ok, continued from 9/11 thread...

Originally posted by Ambiorix
I think she (and I) should e.g. be allowed to say that a civilisation where women are equal, can go out and work and even become university-professors is better than a civilisation where they are subservient to men and under many restrictions.
I think a civilisation which separates church and state is better than one where there is no such separation.
I think a civilisation which attaches great importance to individual rights and human rights is better than one which does not.

Whether I agree with this or not is actually irrelevant, since the statements I criticised in Fallaci's article was not in line with your example statements. If you read the extracts I quoted above, you can for instance see she calls the people from the Arab/Muslim cultural sphere d!cks, and goes on to discuss how the urinate and defacate in her city. If you fail to see the difference between your statements and hers, I don't really think I have much to add.

@Littiz: I hope you understand I do not call you a racist, I call Oriana Fallaci a racist. I don't go around and say racist statements because I am angry. Neither should she. Becoming emotional and upset should not allow us to take out aggressions at whole populations who have done nothing.

@CM: I didn't ask to have the article remove for you sake, in fact I almost guessed you would object since I know you are always in favour a free debate! However, as I stated above, racist statements are against the forum rules and I see no reason to make this thread an exemption. I don't want to see racism here or in society in general, and I think spreading of such propaganda should be outlawed worldwide. It is as simple as that.

Have you read the book you linked to?

And here are the extracts I posted in the other threads from page 7 and 8:

Because do we want to have this discussion about what you call the Contrast-between-the-two-cultures? Well, if you really want to know, it bothers me to even talk about two cultures. To put them on the same level as if they were two parallel realities, of equal weight and measure. Because behind our civilization there is Homer, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Fidia, by god. There’s ancient Greece with her Parthenon and her discovery of Democracy. There’s ancient Rome with her greatness, her laws her concept of law. Her sculptures, her literature, architecture. Her buildings, amphitheaters, aqueducts, bridges, streets. There is a revolutionary, that Christ who died on the cross, that taught us (and patience if we haven’t learned) the concept of love and of justice. There's even is a Church which yes, gave me the Inquisition, I agree. That has tortured and burned a thousand times on the rack, agreed. That has oppressed me for centuries, and for centuries has forced me to sculpt and paint only Christs and Madonnas, that almost killed Galileo Galilei. Humiliated him, and shut him up. However, it also gave a great contribution to the History of Thought: you must agree! Furthermore, behind our civilization there is the Renaissance. There is Leonardo da Vinci, there is Michelangelo, Raffaello, the music of Bach and Mozart and Beethoven. Up and up until Rossini and Donizetti and Verdi and Company. That music without which we don’t know how to live and that in their culture or supposed culture is prohibited. Heaven help you if they whistle a little song or mimic the chorus of the Nabucco. Finally there’s science, by god. A science that has understood many illnesses and their cures. I am still alive, for now, thanks to our science: not the one of Mohamed. A science that has invented marvelous machines. The train, car, plane, spaceships with which we went to the moon and Mars and soon we will go who knows where. A science that has changed the face of this planet with electricity, radio, phone, television, and by the way: is it true that the ultra saints of the left don’t want to say what I have just said?!? God, what d!cks! They’ll never change.

And now here is the fatal question: What is there behind the other culture? No clue! Search as I might I can only find Mohamed with his Koran and Averroe with his merits as a scholar.

Sometimes I would see the image, for me symbolic (therefore infuriating), of the big tent with which one summer ago the Somali Muslims disfigured, smeared with **** and profaned for three months piazza Del Duomo in Florence. My city.

A tent raised to curse and condemn and insult the Italian government that was hosting them but would not give them the necessary documents to run around Europe and would not let them bring into Italy their hordes of their relatives. Mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, pregnant in-laws and even the relatives of their relatives. A tent raised next to the beautiful building of the Archbishop’s residence on whose sidewalk they kept their shoes and slippers which in their countries they line up outside of their Mosques. And with their shoes and slippers, the bottles of water with which they wash their feet before prayer. A tent raised in front of Brunelleschi’s cupola and next to the Baptistery with Ghiberti’s doors of paradise. A tent, furnished like a primitive apartment: chairs, tables, chaise-lounges, mattresses to sleep on and to copulate, ranges to cook the food and stench up the piazza with the smoke and smell. Thanks to the usual unconscionable Enel who cares about our works of art as much as it cares for our countryside, the tent was furnished with electricity. Thanks to a tape recorder, enriched by the coarse ugly voice of a muezzin who punctually exhorted the faithful, deafening the infidels, and suffocated the sound of the bells. To add to this, the yellow lines of urine that profaned the marble of the Baptistery. (By gosh! They have a long "spray" these sons of Allah! How did they manage to hit their objective, which is separated from the street by a protective fence, hence almost two meters distant from their urinary apparatus?) With the yellow lines of urine, and the stench of the excrements the huge door of San Salvatore was blocked and the Bishop unable to use it. The exquisite romanic styled church (built in the year one thousand) which is right behind Piazza del Duomo and that the sons of Allah had transformed into a ****-hole. You know it well.

The other arrogant guests of the city: the Albanians, Sudanese, Bengalis, Tunisians, Algerians, Pakistani, Nigerians who with much fervor contribute to the commerce of drugs and prostitution

Edit as per the rules, my link would be racists against muslims and should be deleted.

Originally posted by Rob-hin
*feels silly*
Who's Oriana Fallaci?

Italian journalist and writer. She was long the voice of the left-wing, liberal conscience in Italy. She got several journalistic prizes. Today her vitriolic pen has stopped targetting the conservatives and militarists and has turned towards manifestations of today's Islam.

Re: Ok, continued from 9/11 thread...

Originally posted by C Elegans
Whether I agree with this or not is actually irrelevant, since the statements I criticised in Fallaci's article was not in line with your example statements. If you read the extracts I quoted above, you can for instance see she calls the people from the Arab/Muslim cultural sphere d!cks, and goes on to discuss how the urinate and defacate in her city. If you fail to see the difference between your statements and hers, I don't really think I have much to add.

Fair enough. It's not something I would say. Nor am I in a position to judge if what she says is true. But my liberal approach to freedom of speech says that she can write those things.

And about her statements you quoted on the contribution to prostitution and drugs by several ethnic groups: I am no Italian and don't know if there is truth in that. But if there were, shouldn't she be allowed to say that?

Snipped and Pasted fromm 9/11

I read the article Littz recomended, and cried through the first half. It was like she wrote from My heart as well. Her pain and passion was so fresh. I still fell that way at times...

The second half of her article, is rather tangential and off topic, but for many reasons is also very sad, and I am thankful to God that the problems (ie:hatered, racism, destruction of public property, etc.) she describes, while they do exist, are not prevalent here. I am sorry they exist at all.


Edit:

One last note:To live in America, and not learn tolerance, is to miss one of the greatest gifts we have to offer our guests and new citizens., I know in Texas we have a constant inflow of new arrivals, many of whom become great contributers to our society. We would suffer greatly if for some reason our borders were to become truly closed...

She's been also a war-reporter (among else, Vietnam, Afghanistan).
She "fought" the REAL fascism as a little girl.
She's 74, today.
This is almost all I knew about her. Yet, I feel compelled to speak in her
defense. As I said, I understand her rage and her reactions after 9/11.

Well, she's a fiery woman, that's sure.
Being a woman, she's even more biased against Moslims, due to the
condition of their women.
I dare to say this is maybe the strongest reason.
I remember vividly a couple of her stories.
One was about three women executed.
She describes how they were taken and treated.
One was prideful, another motionless. The third was scared, crying and
trembling. They were slayed in a quick sequence.
The executioner held the job only for a moment, to scratch his...
well, you know.
She knew later their crime. It was sort of "going to the coiffer".

Another tale was about a friend of hers. A Moslim friend.
See, he was FORCED to marry at 13.
His wife was a girl over 20, IIRC. Virgin, of course, or she would have
been a dead girl.
Well, he was supposed to have sex with her the day of the Marriage.
But he was only thirteen. He failed. Totally.
And could no more even try, with her.
Now, there's poligamy. But only for men. He grew older, knew other women, married
again. This time with LOVE.
He was crying as he spoke so to Oriana.
He felt sorrow for the other woman, but could do nothing about it.
He couldn't have sex with her. She couldn't have sex with others,
or it would have been adultery (=death penalty).
So, she was to die UNTOUCHED by men. Any man.
He asked Oriana not to write of his story, 'cause he was scared.
Later, when he met her again, he said that after all she had to write it.

Now, I assume women enjoy sex as much as we guys.
I tell you, if someone tried to prevent me from having such experiences,
I would have been VERY angry.
(And I'm not even talking of her ENTIRE life totally wasted, practically
without a husband, without kids, without anything)

See, Oriana has been fighting regimes her whole life.
She doesn't care if lack of freedom comes from politics, or from
religion.
She screams to it. In her manner. And she exploded all, that day.

About the condition of immigrates here, I'd have a lot to say.
Too much actually, maybe tomorrow, if you want, when I have some
time more.

Its suprising that Littiz and all these Italians think that all Muslims do the same.

I'm a Muslim. My parents are, my whole family is and we've been Muslims for a while now. Nothing like what Littiz and people say happens in my family. Yes there were aranged marraiges, in my great grandparent's generations and before but times were different then. I have alot of friends in Pakistan. None of them come from families where things like this happen.

When I was in Karachi this summer, many people asked about Sept.11. Nobody I knew was happy about it. Even my servants and the lower middle class people didn't believe it was a good thing.

Oriana Fallaci doesn't seem to be very knowledgeable. I didn't feel anything except hate against her when I read the article. Maybe she should visit differents parts and societies in the Muslim world. She's been to Afghanistan. Yeah its bad there, but why not go to Malaysia, then Turkey, then Palestine, and then India. They are all different.

She blames the foreigners for the problems in Italy. Why the hell did you go to their countries, rob them of all their wealth, in the first place.

And burning down Mecca and all. Don't the same religious fanatics in Arabia say the same thing about the Vatican? She isn't any better than the fanatics in the Middle East.

Because of a few incidents, Littiz and the women are generalizing all Muslims as a violent. I think I should generalize all Italians as racists. But I won't. That won't get me anywhere.

There is a member on this board called "Antichrist". I don't mind that and take it all in good fun. I wonder though what would happen if a member chose "anti-Muhammed" or "anti-Allah" as a nick.

It is one thing to call yourself anti-christ when you're a Christian, which this person probably is. Its another to call yourself anti-mohammed when you're of a different religion.

Another tale was about a friend of hers. A Moslim friend.
See, he was FORCED to marry at 13.
His wife was a girl over 20, IIRC. Virgin, of course, or she would have
been a dead girl.

This happens in India also in the Hindu villages. Shouldn't she hate the Hindus also?

This stuff happens alot in Pakistan. Most of the time in the rural areas.

See, Oriana has been fighting regimes her whole life.
She doesn't care if lack of freedom comes from politics, or from
religion.
She screams to it. In her manner. And she exploded all, that day.

So her answer to getting rid of the regimes is getting rid of all the ones that also oppressed by them?

I'll think of more when I calm down.

The term anti christ does not focus around a single entity, rather it is a term to encapsulate everything that is anti christian/christ. The stereotypical anti christ figure is not actually relevant to most christians, rather it is a force not a single man. I could get a better definition from my brother if required.

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield
It is one thing to call yourself anti-christ when you're a Christian, which this person probably is. Its another to call yourself anti-mohammed when you're of a different religion.

I doubt that anyone calling himself "Anti-christ" is really christian.

I don't see why offending a religion is worse if perpetrated by someone of another religion than by someone who has no religious obedience (which is probably the case with the person in question).
You suggest that a (former) muslim styling himself "anti-Muhammed" would not be offensive. I very much doubt that, seeing that Islam doesn't particularly likes apostates. To say the least.

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
The term anti christ does not focus around a single entity, rather it is a term to encapsulate everything that is anti christian/christ. The stereotypical anti christ figure is not actually relevant to most christians, rather it is a force not a single man. I could get a better definition from my brother if required.

It continues to surprise me why we seek excuses or mitigating circumstances for anti-christian statements or at least great tolerance towards them, but on the other hand suspect the vile face of racism behind every criticism of Islam. Would anyone have objected to someone posting a link to the text of Nietzche's vitriolic attacks on christianity in his book "The antichrist"?

Just to clarify what or who is the anti-christ? As for the book, i would have no clue as i dont know what it says. However i think Enimen would object if says anything against Christainity.

Now on to the comments: Littz so say you see country identity being washed away, true it is. But that aint our fault. Tell me one french man who would willingly work for 100 to 300 french francs a week? Or a Italien who would be a street cleaner for less than 100 Euros a week? None one from the European descent would want these jobs as it is a waste of their skills. Instead people from the third world, muslims and non/muslims take these jobs and make your city clean and easy. I would also suggest you talk to your people who arent reproducing enough that they need people to come in. It is a common known statistic that there are more older Europeans than there are kids. And the younger age population is decreasing faster and faster. So you will end up with a lot of old people who depend on a few young people.

Unless you add immigrants and the muslim community has the largest growth rate there is. We fill in that job, just as the Turks did in Germany, the Pakistanis in the UK and the Magreb in France. We provide the taxes with the low wage jobs which the European people dont want. Soon or later, the population growth will be negative all over europe, that is when you immigrants to come in and take teh jobs, provide money and goods etc.

Just because a person is angry that does not give the person the right to write unsubstantiated statements. Now from what i remember her quotes from the Koran are wrong. They are not correct translations and 1 verse i have never heard of, and heck i am a muslim.

Second Amb, where are women not allowed an education in the Islamic world? Pakistan had a woman prime minister twice. Bangladesh has both major political parties with women leaders for the 10 years, and each has been in office. Indonesia has Megawati in power. Now please show me a West nation with a Woman leader for 2 terms?

He couldn't have sex with her. She couldn't have sex with others,
or it would have been adultery (=death penalty).

The beauty of selective reading or imparting selective information.
The death penalty is for both men and women.
2 men were sentenced in Saudi Arabia for this crime alone a year ago.

Edit: Adding more Comments from here:

I disagree.
I think she (and I) should e.g. be allowed to say that a civilisation where women are equal, can go out and work and even become university-professors is better than a civilisation where they are subservient to men and under many restrictions.
I think a civilisation which separates church and state is better than one where there is no such separation.
I think a civilisation which attaches great importance to individual rights and human rights is better than one which does not.

This is true for some societies but not for all Islamic countries.
Pakistan my motherland, as had a woman PM for 2 terms.
It has enough women doctors that they are exported to the Arab world.
Nafisa Sadiq, the least head of the UNFPA was Pakistani.
She ran a UN organization, so much for work right?
My cousin is a female doc.
While my other one works for the a private company.
Both are in Pakstan.
Malaysia and Indonesia have 80% plus women literacy.
Iran 90%.

Rather it is the US allies like Saudi, Kuwait Bahrain etc which dont allow women to vote or work. Iraq an axis of evil, as women soliders, women teachers workers etc. Same with Iran. Syria has a higher women employment rate than men from what i last heard.

Church and state that is a opinion and can not be based on fact.

Originally posted by CM
Second Amb, where are women not allowed an education in the Islamic world? Pakistan had a woman prime minister twice. Bangladesh has both major political parties with women leaders for the 10 years, and each has been in office. Indonesia has Megawati in power. Now please show me a West nation with a Woman leader for 2 terms?

Don't tell me dear Maggy Thatcher has already been forgotten!
And there's also the Irish PM, Golda Meir and the woman who was PM of France for a while.
And Benazir Bhutto's ascencion to power had a lot to do with the fact that she inherited the opposition party from her father.

But you have a point. My statement was formulated to generally (I didn't say they couldn't get any education whatsoever, however) .
So let me rephrase that: in most Islamic countries women are in a subservient position AND Islam is a factor in holding them back.

Originally posted by Ambiorix

It continues to surprise me why we seek excuses or mitigating circumstances for anti-christian statements or at least great tolerance towards them, but on the other hand suspect the vile face of racism behind every criticism of Islam. Would anyone have objected to someone posting a link to the text of Nietzche's vitriolic attacks on christianity in his book "The antichrist"?

As CM alluded to earlier Eminem would have problems with anti christian remarks, i think i would as well. I don't have a particular agenda, either it is racist or not. The only reason that isn't necessarily apparent is if i don't understand, either conceptionally or emotionally, the work that is being displayed.

I see your point, although posting anything about evolution could also be seen as anti-christan/islamic so one can't cater to everyone at all time, unless we were all silent, but then that wouldn't make a very good forum would it!

My comments were merely referenced to how the media portrays innaccurately the image of the anti-christ, i am sure Eminem and others know more about this than I.

We were debating Oriana Fallaci.
I explained why she says now what she says.
You can find in her books a lot more of such tales,
and how she herself had always serious troubles in all Islamic
countries.
BECAUSE she was a woman doing a job that she wasn't supposed to do.
And being a war reporter, she's been in a fair amount of places.
Yet, the only ones she speaks really badly about, are the
Islamic ones.
Like it or not, this has been Oriana Fallaci's life.

Speaking about me.
Please, could you find in my post the statement:
"and so all muslims in the world have to be same"???
Speaking about my feeling for Church.
I have always been an "oppositor" of the Church. So that argument
with me is wasted. I think many, many, Catholics here are
nothing but hypocrites (me racist?).
Yet, at least they ended their Istitutional Violence.
But again, you I read the word "racist".
Racist! Racist! So she was right.
You cannot dare to raise discussions over problems
(where you could even accept some enlightment).
No, all it'll ever come is the cry "Racist! Racist!"
So, I'm in the total wrong and everything else is fine.
Good. Bear executions, enslaved women and all.
In addiction, some members upon my comments have "suggested" that
all Italians are fascists. I've not called anyone racist for this.
But remember, we may have the attitude, yet everyone is allowed to
come here and profess his own religion! We build places for him.
How many Catholic Churches are there, say, in Iran???????????

And about the immigration topic...
you flamed me before even hearing what I had to say!!!!
My...

This all reminds me of a conversation I had a long while ago.
It's not even the first time I have to remember it.
It was something like:
"I prefer white women to the black ones."
"WHAT?!? Racist!"
"Wait a moment! I was speaking about sexual attraction. I didn't mea.."
"You are saying that white women are better."
"I say that, GIVEN MY PERSONAL LIKINGS, it's more likely that I find
a white woman attractive. I find their average traits more charming TO ME"
"So you say that only for their GENES white women are better!!!!!"
"Listen. It's like musical tastes. Do you have any??? You just prefer
some genres. Then, why not, you may find a particular song of a genre
you don't like much, and find that one hauntingly beautyful.
I can't believe you don't understand my point!!"
"I understand you are a RACIST!"
There's no reasoning.
See, it's because I really consider all people "equal in value", that
I can *DARE* to speak about their differences.
Seems like someone lacks the CLEAN conscience to do so.
Now, people *are* different. Phisically, or culturally.
If this means that I am the last one to notice it, while all the rest
of the world has gone BLIND, then, yes, I *AM* a racist!

-END OF LITTIZ'S COMMENTS-

Littz are the flaming comment directed towards me? I do believe i have not flamed you. Could you please refer to what you believe is or was a flame and i can explain my comments. Second of all i have never refered to you as a racist. I dont see you as one, as i hold a different opinion on the term racist. I understand that you know Islam through the eyes and reading of Ms. Fallaci. However people can be tainted and have baised prejudices. It would be best not to stick to view point but rather to a large spectrum and then decide.

Having re-read my post i dont see it as a flame. It could have less direct by dividing people into "your" people and such. But i dont see a flame anywhere.

@Amb..hey maggy was no woman. She was a man, everybody knows it Now with the rephrased statement. Lets get into a small discussion here. Show me cases, hypothetical or real and i will state what Islam says on the issue. A perfect example would be the recent attempts to stone a woman in Nigeria. It is in this weeks International Time Mag dated 2nd of sept. I will try too look for a link that provides the news for free, as Time requires you to pay for link. Or i could try to get it scaned in. Oh well. But would that be a suitable discussion for women and their rights? It is timely and has happened in Nigeria twice before, so it is not a rare case. Or if anybody has seen a free link please post it here.

CM,
I'm not talking about any particular case. Things like stoning of women or genital mutilation are luckily not the norm in most Islamic countries. And you and others may probably argue with some succes that these practices are really un-islamic.
I'm rather referring to the general subservient position of women in most Islamic societies. And the fact that the Islamic teachings as expressed in the Qur'an and the Hadith (Hadeeth) clearly state that a woman is not the equal of a man.

Amby

Originally posted by Ambiorix
And the fact that the Islamic teachings as expressed in the Qur'an and the Hadith (Hadeeth) clearly state that a woman is not the equal of a man.

If we're being completely fair, it should be acknowledged that the Bible states this too. Hence (in part, at least) the controversy over the issue of allowing women into the clergy a while back.

EDITted for clarification-I only point this out as Fallaci doesn't seem to acknowledge that the trend of placing women in a 'lesser' position is not unique to the Islam holy texts, and is prevalent in many Western religious texts too. So please don't let this get sidetracked by my observation, the conversation is about Fallaci.