the NPC's special talents

[Rattman]

right

minsc can go crazy and attack everything

Jahira can use the harpercall thingy

arieal is a multiclass that is not really allowed

Edwin has his amulate

Jan has his inventions

valgar has his sword and armor

the bloody bard had his weapons

anoman is not allowed to dual (low wisdom me thinks) and has his shield

Keldorn has sword and armor

the bloody druid had his staff and cloak

nalia has her ring (he he)

viconica has her magic resistance

whats her name the halfling has her sword and bow

even kelsy and sola have fancy things

but what about Korgan......

[kemra]

Anomen can not dual class because he already is, he's a Fighter/Cleric dual you know.

In the case of Korgan he's just plain hard!

[Baldursgate Fan]

Ahhh, Korgan; my favourite NPC after Jan. He has grandmastery in axes.

[fable]

Jahira can use the harpercall thingy

Only druid available to you in the game that can cast Raise Dead. Is that what you meant by the technical term, above?

[UserUnfriendly]

"arieal is a multiclass that is not really allowed "

an elven cleric mage? of course thats allowed....is her stats too low?

"whats her name the halfling has her sword and bow"

mazzy also has her haste and heal and str spell buttons in her innate...

she has a weaker version of lay on hands....her haste gives you half a attack extra per round, and she has a str spell so she becomes a decent fighter meelee for a while....

[aberrant80]

korgan has no "special talent", as u so put it.

here's some little technical corrections (sry, can't help it):
1. I don't think items or class restrictions are considered "special talent"...
2. it's Aerie, Jaheira, Valygar, Anomen, and Viconia.
3. Minsc doesn't "go crazy and attack everything". he just berserks (like barbarian rage)
4. Edwin's AMULET doesn't do anything.
5. Solaufein is NOT one of the pre-included recruitable characters.
6. Plus, u like bloody this blookdy that alot doncha? well, bloody post too. could have just asked what special attributes or things korgan has that the others don't.

[EvilEdwin]

Edwin's amulet gives him an additional spell per level in BG1 and two extra spells per level in BG2, in addition to what he normal gets for being x level mage and a specialist mage.

[fable]

One of the nice things about the "special powers," as you call 'em, is that they're perfectly conceivable within gameworld constraints. There are no overwhelming abilities, and nothing seems suspiciously out of character for the environment. The abilities of Edwin's amulet will be near-duplicated by other items you find later in the game. Viconia's magic resistance is perfectly normal for a drow. Ariel's multiclass certainly *is* allowed. Cernd's artifacts are extremely minor, and do nothing special. IMO, each of these items or abilities actually do less for the party than really provide a bit of color that helps bring the NPCs to life. But of course, nothing beats the dialog in that regard.

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
"arieal is a multiclass that is not really allowed "

an elven cleric mage? of course thats allowed....is her stats too low?

See below.

Originally posted by fable
Aerie's multiclass certainly *is* allowed... IMO, each of these items or abilities actually do less for the party than really provide a bit of color that helps bring the NPCs to life.

Actually, Rattman is correct. Normally, an Elf can't be a Cleric/Mage, but Aerie is a Cleric/Mage. (Look on page 235 of the manual or try rolling one up from the character creation screen--I'm not talking about using ShadowKeeper.) Aerie is special because of her unique background (which provides a bit of color that brings her to life, as you say). Even though she's an Elf, she can still be a Cleric/Mage because her nature has changed. Sometimes she's not sure what she really is, but she's no longer an Avariel. That's the subject of much of her dialogue. (What can change the nature of an Elf? Torment, of course.)

There are a few other things that could be mentioned in this thread. For example, Yoshimo has a special sword of his own, and I think he has more thieving points than a Bounty Hunter is normally allowed. (This might have been an oversight when the developers created different versions of him so he could be different levels when you meet him, or he might be so skilled because he's the "famous Yoshimo".) Haer'Dalis has extra proficiency points, as well as some special characteristics because he's a Tiefling, which perfectly suits his character as a Tiefling Doomguard from Sigil. Jaheira can obtain the Harper Pin in addition to Harper's Call because she's a Harper. As UserUnfriendly pointed out, Mazzy has some special abilities, which suits her because she's practically a Paladin. As EvilEdwin pointed out, Edwin's Amulet certainly does do something. It makes all the other Mages look "bad" in comparison. If I'm not mistaken, I think Imoen was able to memorize one extra spell per level at one time, but that was "corrected" in a patch. And finally, the player character has a lot of special abilities.

I think the NPCs were given special items and special abilities to a) make them more interesting, and b) make them more appealing as party members. Most player characters are going to make the NPCs pale in comparison. If good dialogue isn't enough to make them desirable, then perhaps making baddasses out of them does the trick.

As for Korgan, he has good stats and he's a Berserker, which is arguably one of the most powerful classes in the game. What else does he need to make him more appealing (besides a foul mouth)? Besides, if he had his own special +1 Battle Axe when you met him, he wouldn't be using it for very long anyway, would he now?

[fable]

Originally posted by VonDondu
Actually, Rattman is correct. Normally, an Elf can't be a Cleric/Mage, but Aerie is a Cleric/Mage. (Look on page 235 of the manual or try rolling one up from the character creation screen--I'm not talking about using ShadowKeeper.)

Minor quibbles, sir! She's no longer an elf, as you've pointed out in your clever wink at PS:T. My point remains that none of the party NPCs have any remarkable possessions or super abilities, and all of what they've got pales in comparison to the items you'll find as your brave group ventures forth into the unknown.

I think several of the party NPCs were also given "problem backgrounds" to add interest. Imagine what it would have been like to walk through a game that simply offered you various flavors of Biff the Understudy as party members: you would have been under an automatic sleep spell before ever getting underway. The people who join you are delightfully etched personalities. I may like Korgan's skills, but what's memorable about him is his creative, endless abuse when faced by someone he regards as a traitor, and his rough but oddly friendly interactions with other party members. Jan's bolts are a great little item, but it's his sly, whimsical humor in his quickly invented stories that sets him apart. Those bolts, the drow dexterity, Haer'dalis' swords may be what sets these characters apart at first, but once we've replaced the items with better ones, it's the writing that keeps everybody distinctive, IMO.

[UserUnfriendly]

ooopse,.,...forgot one...

saverok has deathbringer...makes all the others look cheap...it sounds bad, a 5 percent chance of doing a death bringer assault that does mondo damage, but nope, its the best special ability of all...about 10 or higher percent of the time, it seems to me, you stun who ever youre whaling on, and with dual wield katanas, i get it so often its sick...you can even stun clay golems, and creatures totally immune to stun and highly magic resistant,,,,its like celestial fury stun, and if you combine WITH celestial fury, the upgraded one from item upgrade mod, it just rocks...ive even stunned dragons, and its just saves your tush many times...

[fable]

Not an SOA party NPC, so I never compare Sarevok to the other members of my party--just my POV. IMO, by the time you can pick up Sarevok, you need in to compare him to the level, abilities, and items of the rest of your party. I think they gave him his abilities and Deathbringer simply to make him attractive enough to add to your group.

And he's needed. There's just too much magic resistance flying around in ToB. Sarevok's a lifesaver. Not to mention, his dialog with Jan is a scream.

[serjeLeBlade]

Amazed

Know what? Turns out Haer'Dalis is not even a blade!
Opening him in SK, he has an "unknown" kit... hacked to give him the offensive and defensive spin.
Oh my.
I decided to de-hack him to turn him to a regular blade... So now he has the correct (kit-limited) bard/blade abilities (lore, pickpocket... the stuff). And now I'm very happy with myself.
For the 1st time in BG2 I can have a regular bard without playing it myself and I can finally play a game with HD in party without feeling the urge to make fun of him or kill him!
Nice blue sparrow. Something "new" in the game again.
I guess I'm going to see that HD/Aerie romance this time, at last...

(Bioware hacks the kits to *remove* useful abilities?!? Bad, bad bioware!)

[VonDondu]

I agree that Sarevok doesn't belong in this particular discussion since he doesn't appear in Shadows of Amn. But it's interesting to talk about him, though.

I don't really like playing with the Evil NPCs. I like playing Good characters. I don't mind playing with the Neutral NPCs because they're almost indistinguishable from Good characters (except for one of them).

But I do think the Evil NPCs are well-written. The game does a pretty good job of making them vicious enough to be believable without turning them into mindless monsters. Sarevok is especially frightening. My party might have bested him in BG1, but my first reaction was, I don't want to deal with him again. As Minsc says, he's like a bad penny. A lot of players probably hold a grudge against him. But even if you don't like him, he can make a really good party member. I think that's one reason why the developers made him such an effective Fighter--not to mention 100% obedient. It's an incentive to let him join your party. In the end, his presence pays off, even (surprisingly) in a Good party. ("I live again for a purpose and I will not fail it...")

[fable]

Originally posted by VonDondu
I agree that Sarevok doesn't belong in this particular discussion since he doesn't appear in Shadows of Amn. But it's interesting to talk about him, though.

Sure is, and there's nothing wrong with discussing him, here. It's just that a flat-out comparison between his skills and items and those of party NPCs available in SoA ignores his much later point of entry.

I don't really like playing with the Evil NPCs. I like playing Good characters. I don't mind playing with the Neutral NPCs because they're almost indistinguishable from Good characters (except for one of them).

Now I find that interesting. Do you then believe that the attitudes of the "evil" party NPCs in SoA are truly evil? From the way Viconia speaks, it sounds to me like she's actually bucking the militaristic, hierarchal culture she grew up in. She expresses gratitude for her rescue, and she helps out. Is that evil? Or Korgan: he's loyal and honest. True, he's also greedy and quick-tempered, but he seems more neutral to me than evil. As for Edwin and his dreams of power ("FEAR ME!"), I think he's more pathetic than evil. Perhaps he would be truly evil if he had the brains, but his social skills are so deficient that he'll never get very far.

I once posted here that a friend, Brenda Garno (who was the main dev for Sir-Tech on the last Wizardry game), came up with a classic definition of alignments (much as I hate 'em) that avoids all the cliches. She said that a good person would go out of their way to help a little old lady across the street. A neutral person would do it if they had the time, and an evil person would do it--for a price. I can't see Viconia, Ediwn or Korgan charging that little old lady. Bodhi? Absolutely. Linval? He'd bring his own change-making meter.

But I do think the Evil NPCs are well-written. The game does a pretty good job of making them vicious enough to be believable without turning them into mindless monsters. Sarevok is especially frightening.

I agree that Sarevok, when first encountered in ToB, is genuinely evil. That's to say, he kills others because it gives him joy. He has built a personal philosophy out of self-gratification where self-gratification involves a lot of loss of life. Still, he's surprisingly candid and free of anger. I find him more interesting than repulsive, especially since he bears no animus against you, the alpha Bhaalspawn who killed him.

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by fable
Do you then believe that the attitudes of the "evil" party NPCs in SoA are truly evil?

I once posted here that a friend, Brenda Garno (who was the main dev for Sir-Tech on the last Wizardry game), came up with a classic definition of alignments (much as I hate 'em) that avoids all the cliches. She said that a good person would go out of their way to help a little old lady across the street. A neutral person would do it if they had the time, and an evil person would do it--for a price. I can't see Viconia, Edwin or Korgan charging that little old lady. Bodhi? Absolutely. Linvail? He'd bring his own change-making meter.

Yes, I do think that Viconia, Korgan, Edwin, Sarevok, Bodhi, and Aran Linvail are evil. The latter isn't supposed to be evil, but I still believe he is.

Korgan is a strange case because he won't hurt the weak and helpless. He has a soft spot for children, probably because he was orphaned himself. But he wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone in a dispute over money (or anyone who met his definition of a "traitor"), and what's more, he would relish the killing. That makes him evil. If an old lady asked him for help crossing the street, he'd say, "Hop on me lap, dear, and I'll give yeh a ride ye'll never forget."

Viconia isn't as evil as most Drow. But she has no tolerance for weakness, and she despises nearly everyone. I can't see her helping an old lady cross the street unless you ordered her to do it. She'd probably say something like, "Filthy [Drow speak]. In the Underdark, we used the lame for pain threshold experiments."

Sarevok is a changed man. He has been dead for some time, and his attitude about the world and, in particular, his place in it has changed. That makes him a bit unpredictable. He is obedient, and he won't do anything that would harm the group. But even so, you wouldn't want to cross him. He relishes killing, and violence is usually his first resort. Even if he were to help an old lady cross the street, he'd say, "Quit your mewling and be silent. You have no idea what pain is. Let's get this over with." And that's even after his transformation.

I can't see Bodhi helping an old lady cross the street. More likely, she'd order one of her underlings to to grab the old lady after dark so they could "feed".

Edwin might be bumbling and a bit pathetic, but he's completely self-centered and selfish, and I think that's the hallmark of an "evil" character. He wouldn't go out of his way to hurt anyone just for the thrill of it (like most Evil characters, he's not a vicious monster), but he wouldn't go out of his way to help anyone, either. If he were on a path that would make him powerful--like the player character's own quest--he wouldn't care who, or how many, got hurt in the process. That makes him evil.

[Fallen Angel]

Evil?

I certainly agree that none of the NPCs are true and full out evil. True evil are people (beings) that bring destruction for destructions sake like Bodhi and Firekragg. The evil NPC just don't mind killing for some extra power. This brings up the question of what showed an evil PC and party do?

For example in the game I haven't come across any missions where losing reputation gains you more XP and treasure (power) then quest where you gain reputation. So when I play an evil party the game is just like playing a good party only with different NPCs.

What I want are some major side quest (Nalia's Keep size) that net you extra rewards for being evil.

[fable]

Korgan is a strange case because he won't hurt the weak and helpless. He has a soft spot for children, probably because he was orphaned himself. But he wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone in a dispute over money (or anyone who met his definition of a "traitor"), and what's more, he would relish the killing. That makes him evil.

Relish killing? I see him as a professional mercenary, certainly, but he never gets off on it. It's a jobin which he takes some pride, as he admits to Edwin in a private conversation. And from what we can see of Korgan, he doesn't kill people in a dispute over money, but because they've welched on deals and taken part of the loot that was rightfully his--in other words, that is an element of redress for being "wronged" in his behavior. I don't see this as automatically evil. Vengeful? Certainly. But Korgan never betrays you or any of your party. I still don't see his actions as fitting into the evil area on the alignment grid.

If an old lady asked him for help crossing the street, he'd say, "Hop on me lap, dear, and I'll give yeh a ride ye'll never forget."

Cute, and probably true.

Viconia isn't as evil as most Drow. But she has no tolerance for weakness, and she despises nearly everyone.

She despises weakness--and this makes her evil? So she joins with your party, and does innumerable good deeds for others. Would a person who truly despised weakness seek to help out a little boy, or a city where they're despised? Methinks Viconia doth protest too much.
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Just like her story about killing the farmers who raped her and her subsequent vengeance turns out to be a fraud, I think that by the time she's found you, Viconia herself has stopped believing in the principles of her culture. But she has nothing else to espouse, so she pays them lip service even as her behavior shows her following a different path. She is a moral vacuum when you meet her, which is why I think your relationship can literally turn her around; a nullity, not evil.

[ctid1977]

A lot of the rules are bent in favour of the NPCs. I think that this is right and propper, in that it encourages people who tend to tank through this sort of game to get more involved in the roleplaying aspect.

Good examples of the rules being bent are Minsc and Anomen. Minsc is too unwise to be a Ranger, and Anomen by rights should not be capable of dual class to a cleric. However this is done to give colour, in the case of Minsc, and to make an otherwise useless character more appealing, in the case of Anomen.

Yoshimo is made a better thief than he should be, and indeed the only pure thief, so that the majority of FIRST TIME players take him on and enjoy the story this involves, also adding an incentive to keep Imoen.

The Cleric/Mage class of Aerie is a straght take on the fact that her god is a gnome god, and her mentor is Quayle, an Illusionist/Cleric.

These sort of changes are fine, they add to the character and background, and the rules are there to be tweaked.

[fable]

Originally posted by ctid1977
Good examples of the rules being bent are Minsc and Anomen. Minsc is too unwise to be a Ranger...

Misnc didn't start out with his low wisdom. As the manual points out, and as you discovered in BG1, poor Minsc got hit more than once too often on the head while protecting Dynaheir. I've never seen a loss of stats during the game actually remove a character from their chosen class, so I'm guessing this holds true for Minsc, as well.