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Ok, I had such fun with Edwin hacked to Sorceror that I've decided to make a party with two. I'd like a reality check for my spell lineup - am I being goofy? Where two spells are on the same line, that would mean Tashia takes one, I take the other.

Party: PC Sorceror, Tashia, VIconia, Minsc (Inquisitor), Jaheira (Ranger/Cleric) Jan (Assassin) I'll be playing with tactics, ascension, spell-50, etc.

Level 1
Magic Missile
Armor (Shield?)
Spook
Chromatic Orb
Identify / Shield

Level 2
Mirror Image
Glitterdust/Horror
Blur
Web/Stinking Cloud
Resist Fear / Web

Level 3
Fireball/skull trap
Haste / Invis. 10'radius
Remove Magic / Slow
Skull trap/Fireball
Melf's MM

Level 4
Stoneskin
Minor Sequencer
Wizard Eye / Teleport Field
Gr. Malison / Spider Spawn
Teleport filed / Gr. Malison

Level 5
Spell Immunity
Breach / Lower Resist
Lower Resist / Sunfire
Sunfire / Feeblemind
Animate Dead (or Chaos?) / Breach

Level 6
Contingency
Pro MW / Improved Haste
Death / PW Silence
Improved Haste / Pro MW
Mislead / Death

Level 7
Project Image/M Sword
Mass Invis / Project Image
DB Fireball / PW Stun
Lim. Wish / DB Fireball
Ruby Ray / Mass Invis.

Level 8
Spell Trigger
ADHW
Bigby / PW Blind
Symbol Stun / Bigby
PW Blind / Symbol Stun

Level 9
Chain Contingency
Timestop / Shapechange
Imprisonment / Time stop
Shapechange / Imprisonment
Spellstrike

HLA
Planetar
Greater Alacrity
Dragon's Breath / Energy Blades
Energy Blades / Dragon's Breath

Thanks in advance,

excellent line up...only a few quibbles, and more in style rather than any disagreements!!!

Great job of spell selection!!!!

Level 2
Mirror Image
Glitterdust/Horror
Blur
Web/Stinking Cloud
Resist Fear / Web

may i suggest instead of horror, tashia or your pc takes emotion hopelessness? that's a very underappreciated spell, better than horror because instead of sending low level enemies fleeing for their lives, it disables them and they stay in place, ready for a cloudkill wand...also, it acts like a resist fear for the caster...double the value for one spell...

i really appreciate your choice of having both web and stinky cloud picked by different sorcerors...having both tashia and the pc cast web and stinky cloud will absolutely ensure if the web doesn't get them, the cloud will...

Level 3
Fireball/skull trap
Haste / Invis. 10'radius
Remove Magic / Slow
Skull trap/Fireball
Melf's MM

invis 10' radius...hmmm...invisibility is a spell type i stay away from, since mass invisibility is improved invisibility, much more useful in combat...inv 10 ft i almost never use, except when i need to get past some monsters with ai off...i personally would choose another remove magic....good for you!!! you've thought this thru and realized with keldorn and his inquisitor dispell magic, you won't need dispell magic for your combat sorcerors!!! You've picked up precisely the right habit of thinking necessary for effective sorceror use!!!

Level 4
Stoneskin
Minor Sequencer
Wizard Eye / Teleport Field
Gr. Malison / Spider Spawn
Teleport filed / Gr. Malison

hmm..minor sequencer is ok, but it can only do level 2 spells...i personally prefer farsight, but this is purely a style choice...maybe give one of them spirit armor? until you can afford bracers for tashia and yourself, spirit armor is the best way to raise ac...and even after getting them bracers, the +1 to save vs spells is very useful, stack with blur for best effect...this level lacks great spells once you pick malison, teleport field and stoneskin....

Level 6
Contingency
Pro MW / Improved Haste
Death / PW Silence
Improved Haste / Pro MW
Mislead / Death

hmmm...i would recommend removing pw silence...mages in the game, especially improved mages, use un-disruptable scripts to cast spells, only priests can be effectively silenced....and power word blind does a better job on both priests and mages...may i suggest protection from magic energy??? cast on your party, then unleash a spell trigger and chain contingency of skull traps...cast on yourself....instantly kill off a room full of demons in one skullfire blast...wonderful spell, but you need protection from magic energy, or you will get hurt bad...and may i suggest mislead??? incredibly cheesy spell,

walk into a room, cast spells without being attacked...if your mislead clone is beyond the sight range of enemies, you cannot be true sighted or your invisibility dispelled...the blink effect between true invisibility and improved invisibility will allow you to cast an attack spell, and while waiting for the rest of the round to count down until you can cast your next spell, monsters who cannot see invisible will actually ignore you...

Level 9
Chain Contingency
Timestop / Shapechange
Imprisonment / Time stop
Shapechange / Imprisonment
Spellstrike

may i suggest power word kill??? takes quite a bit of practice to use, but when you're fighting something really nasty, like dragons, whaling away with some tanks while your fragile sorcerors wait until its hit points drop down to less than 50, then attacking with a power word kill ends a lot of battles...

I think you did an excellent job with spell selection for a two sorc party, and you will have so much fun!!!

In level 6, I am partial to summon Nishruu (for occupying spell casters) and I don't have much use for contingency. But this is purely stylistic.

In level 8 I would get ADHW before Spell Trigger (or maybe go for a ADHW/ST followed by ST/ADHW on the next pick).

summon nishiru has a tendency to eat loot...this is why i don't like nishiru or hakashars as summons...also, tactics mod has a lot of auto casting death spell mages, so the summons imho should be limited to the most usefull summons...skeleton warriors, and mordenkainen swords...you really should use planetars or demons against spell casters, and nishiru are only useful against spell casters...planetars can see invisible creatures, that really helps too...nishiru can't, as far as i know...

but this is a style choice...i also like spell trigger since you can set up triple sunfires, against anything vulnerable to flame, a triple sunfire via trigger is incredibly devistating...

level 6, try to have both chaos and animate dead, but if its a choice, dump chaos for animate dead...chaos is not all that terribly effective, about half the time they still attack you, slow is a much better area disabling spell that doesn't hurt your party...

also, you might want to think about incindiary cloud as your 8th level damage spell...incredibly powerful, does highly powerful damage, will serverly hurt any fire vulnerable creatures...

More stuff about spells...

Wow! - thanks for the helpful and kind comments. I've always run melee-heavy parties who just chopped, bludgeoned and pierced their enemies into so many tasty EXP points, so this one will take a whole different approach. Spell casting was just basic buffs like haste, chant, etc. and toss a breach or two onto enemy mages. The only recent threads I've found on this have been solo sorcerors, and, of course, a party sorceror will want a (fairly) radically different lineup.

Jaheira is now cleric/ranger specialty priest of Helm instead of stalker - not a majour change.

Anyway, I have a few follow ups:
Level 2
....may i suggest instead of horror, tashia or your pc takes emotion hopelessness? that's a very underappreciated spell, better than horror because instead of sending low level enemies fleeing for their lives, it disables them and they stay in place, ready for a cloudkill wand...also, it acts like a resist fear for the caster...double the value for one spell...

i really appreciate your choice of having both web and stinky cloud picked by different sorcerors...having both tashia and the pc cast web and stinky cloud will absolutely ensure if the web doesn't get them, the cloud will...

Emotion: hopelessness it is -a spell I've never used before. I'd had mixed feelings about horror - I think I was just picking it out of residual affection for Fear/Invoke Fear in another game. I'll just use fear wands when/if horror is called for. No credit on web & stinky cloud for me - I stole it straight out of your cheese guide. It's a spell lineup I'm trying to get better at using. Maybe I'll get at least one of the sorcerors both web & stinking cloud, as I swap in emotion at L4.

Level 3
invis 10' radius...hmmm...invisibility is a spell type i stay away from, since mass invisibility is improved invisibility, much more useful in combat...inv 10 ft i almost never use, except when i need to get past some monsters with ai off...i personally would choose another remove magic....good for you!!! you've thought this thru and realized with keldorn and his inquisitor dispell magic, you won't need dispell magic for your combat sorcerors!!! You've picked up precisely the right habit of thinking necessary for effective sorceror use!!!

Yeah, inquisitor dispel & true sight is why I made Minsc that class - I've never played a DnD party with a Paladin since 1st. edition days.... I've really gotten hooked on invis 10' radius since I first got Jan in my party - for sneaking in on enemies, etc - Mass Invis is WAY nicer, but you get the 10' radius version so early. I may want another remove magic, though - 3 was a tough level to pick spells on.

Level 4
hmm..minor sequencer is ok, but it can only do level 2 spells...i personally prefer farsight, but this is purely a style choice...maybe give one of them spirit armor? until you can afford bracers for tashia and yourself, spirit armor is the best way to raise ac...and even after getting them bracers, the +1 to save vs spells is very useful, stack with blur for best effect...this level lacks great spells once you pick malison, teleport field and stoneskin....

I like the wiz. eye because it's persistent and simple (sort of like me ) I'll take a look at spirit armor & farsight - I'm just sooo hooked on triggers & sequencers, as they have so much flexibility for both offense and defense. I'd thought about maybe a polymorph self too, but the rat cloak & scrolls makes that pretty much redundant. I'll think what to ditch for emotion.

try to have both chaos and animate dead, but if its a choice, dump chaos for animate dead...chaos is not all that terribly effective, about half the time they still attack you, slow is a much better area disabling spell that doesn't hurt your party...

I'm thinking a lot about both having animate dead - it's a spell I love, though both Jaheira and Viconia get it too.... I'm less than 100% sure about chaos.

Level 6
hmmm...i would recommend removing pw silence...mages in the game, especially improved mages, use un-disruptable scripts to cast spells, only priests can be effectively silenced....and power word blind does a better job on both priests and mages...may i suggest protection from magic energy??? cast on your party, then unleash a spell trigger and chain contingency of skull traps...cast on yourself....instantly kill off a room full of demons in one skullfire blast...wonderful spell, but you need protection from magic energy, or you will get hurt bad...and may i suggest mislead??? incredibly cheesy spell,

walk into a room, cast spells without being attacked...if your mislead clone is beyond the sight range of enemies, you cannot be true sighted or your invisibility dispelled...the blink effect between true invisibility and improved invisibility will allow you to cast an attack spell, and while waiting for the rest of the round to count down until you can cast your next spell, monsters who cannot see invisible will actually ignore you...

I had a hell of a time with the level 6s, and wasn't very happy with my choices. I'll revisit them & your points are well taken - mislead is cool as heck, especially on top of project image. I'd forgotten ProME was targetable, doh! At least Minsc and the priests bring loads of true sight along.

also, you might want to think about incindiary cloud as your 8th level damage spell...incredibly powerful, does highly powerful damage, will serverly hurt any fire vulnerable creatures...

Yeah, I've been wondering about Incendiary cloud - a high damage DoT like that is pretty cool. I generally try to minimize stationary area damage spells, I always seem to blunder into them, and the enemies never seem to stay stuck in them, but that's part of rethinking with this caster-heavy party.

Level 9
Chain Contingency
Timestop / Shapechange
Imprisonment / Time stop
Shapechange / Imprisonment
Spellstrike

may i suggest power word kill??? takes quite a bit of practice to use, but when you're fighting something really nasty, like dragons, whaling away with some tanks while your fragile sorcerors wait until its hit points drop down to less than 50, then attacking with a power word kill ends a lot of battles...

PW kill, hmmm...maybe replace one or both of the imprisonments?


In level 6, I am partial to summon Nishruu (for occupying spell casters) and I don't have much use for contingency. But this is purely stylistic.

In level 8 I would get ADHW before Spell Trigger (or maybe go for a ADHW/ST followed by ST/ADHW on the next pick).

Nishruu/Hakeshar are specialized enough that I think I'll do them by scroll, when needed.
The trigger/ADHW split & switch may be a very good choice. They're both ultra-useful spells in any case.

Again, thanks for the great input & kind words!

Re: More stuff about spells...

Originally posted by nephtu
Nishruu/Hakeshar are specialized enough that I think I'll do them by scroll, when needed.

That's actually a pretty good idea. I find that I use them fairly often at low levels but not so much later in the game, when there are better ways of disabling spell casters. And, just FYI, there is a baldurdash patch to keep Nishruu from eating loot.

Re: More stuff about spells...

PW kill, hmmm...maybe replace one or both of the imprisonments?

I personally don't have much use for shapechange. Why replace imprisonment instead of SC? Just curious on your reasoning - always new stuff to learn...

If you had a F/M I would understand Illithid + GWW...

true, the baldurdash patch does indeed fix that...i always forget what's in the patch...

here's my sorceress picks..

1.
chromatic orb
friends
identify
magic missile
spook
armor of faith
doom
resist fear
detect evil

2.
knock
melf acid arrow
mirror image
stinky cloud
strength
web
draw on holy might
call lightning

3.
flame arrow
haste
fireball
remove magic
skull trap
slow
animate dead
holy smite

4.
farsight
greater malison
spirit armor
teleport field
minor sequencer
free action
iron skin
chaotic commands
true sight

5
feeblemind
breach
cone of cold
lower resistance
spell immunity
sunfire
flamestrike
insect plague
righteous magic

6
chain lightning
contingency
deathspell
improved haste
mislead
protection from magic weapons
protection from magic energy
bolt of glory
false dawn

7
delayblast fireball
spell sequencer
mass invisibility
mordenkainen sword
project image
ruby ray of reversal
khelbens warding whip
nature's beauty
greater elemental summoning

8
abi dahzim
incindiary cloud
bigby's clenched fist
protection from energy
spell trigger
summon deva
firestorm
implosion
sunray

9
black blade of disaster
chain contingency
spell strike
timestop
wish
g acuity, planetars, et all....


(work in progress..."Uber-contingency" which can chain 9th level spells...

yes this spell selection is utterly illegal, and quite simple to do...

Re: Re: More stuff about spells...

Originally posted by Sker
I personally don't have much use for shapechange. Why replace imprisonment instead of SC? Just curious on your reasoning - always new stuff to learn...

If you had a F/M I would understand Illithid + GWW...

sker, shapechange is strangely effective for sorcerors as well as fighter mages...

iron golem is utterly immune to magic, and with improved haste and high armor class very useful defensively...

the werewolf has very great regeneration ability, so is good while spell is active to pick this form to heal for a while, especially if you are improved hasted...

the fire elemental is completely immune to fire...if you have the ring of fire resistance on, you will be 127% resistant to fire, which will actually heal you in your own inc clouds...

finally

the mindflayer form is awesome with a fighter mage's low thaco, for brain sucking on unkillable creatures...but a sorceror has sucky thaco and attacks...right???

every attack while timestopped is automatic hit!!!

so improve haste yourself, cast timestop, then shapechange...

this is also why a high level aerie is terrifying...timestop, and harm attacks...

No acid arrow or flame arrow? I find them useful as simple non-area-effect damagers, which are nice to have a lot of the time. I don't know what to replace for them, but I'm certain that I'd choose both of them pretty early.

Originally posted by LizardWizard
No acid arrow or flame arrow? I find them useful as simple non-area-effect damagers, which are nice to have a lot of the time. I don't know what to replace for them, but I'm certain that I'd choose both of them pretty early.

i rarely bother with direct effect spells that do spell disruption. you're better off with area effect spell disruption, when playing the tactics mod with smarmy liches and wizards. the really dangerous ones, liches cast their defensive and offensive spells via script, which is almost impossible to spell disrupt. they are immune to 5th level and below, so flame arrow and melf acid are quite ineffective. the only real use for spell disrupt is with clerics, who do not cast via script. for area effect, i recommend cloudkill, via wand, or storm of vengence. it is possible to disable script casting liches and high level mages, use nature's beauty on them. if they're blind, they can only cast spells on near by targets, which suggest their own interesting tactics.

saying that, both melf and flame arrow are great spells in and of themselves. a spell sequenced flame arrow can win many battles. but nep is using spell 50, which turns an ordinary fireball into a ultra powered microwave at high levels, which tashia and his pc should reach fairly soon. I personally tend to pick fireball over flame arrow, because its so useful, and for troll killing i like all the fun things i can do with melf minute meteors. or energy blades. once again, its a pure style choice, and his initial selection gives him a lot of variety in attack spells, which really is the point after all.