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What one must understand is the fact that 1d4 or 1d10 really doesn't matter when the 1d4 (dagger) has 5d6 Sneak Attack added to it.

Fighter 10 has BAB 10/5, and Rouge 10 has BAB 7/2. The difference is only 3 ! A F7/Rog3 has a diff. of 1 !!

If you have maxed enchantments on all Pc's this (-3) won't matter at all.

When level is capped at 10 i say ANY multiclass combo is better than single-class, except for Wizard who'll enchant the "Keen" ability to your weapons, or Clerics/Druids enchanting.

The BEST enchanter is an Elven Druid ! Has all Elementals, (with c12 to c10 cheat), +1/+2/+3 and Special Elf Items (Boots, Cloaks) and Special Druid Items (Amul of Nat. Armor, Amul. of Mighty Fists).
You only miss Keen & Mighty Cleaving (useless for Great Cleavers)

Let's see the diff. from F 10 and a multi F 7/ C 3. IMO F7/C3 is always better. :

1 The diff. in BAB is only 1

2 Adding another class is like adding Feats for Saves ! I.E. Great Fortitude.

3 Adding 1 lvl of Cleric to any build adds: Domain Features, Saves, Spells & Turn Abilities.

The same goes for Fx/rogX builds:

4 1 lvl of Rouge adds Saves, Sneak Attack 1d6 (same as a Frost Enchantment for free), and the abilities of a rouge for the Fighter.

5 In case of 3 & 4, having 3 lvl's of cleric or rouge would add even better saves (+3 Fort & Will or +3 Ref), more spells, or better evasion or Sneak 2d6 (same as Holy or Axiomatic).

6 Adding Wiz 1 to any build grants you +2 to Will save, the Familiar (another free feat), Scribe Scroll & access to any mage spell found via scrolls.

I could go on and on, but F7/C3 or a F7/roug3 is ALWAYS better than a F 10 build.

BTW, my solo attempt at TOEE was a F4/C5/Wiz1 build, and i chose to kill ALL inhabitants, even the NODE bosses, before taking on Zuggmotey alone. It was easier than with a party

Silverdragon72 released in another thread a build for a Quad build that's extremely strong, a "Kensai" Ftr2/Mnk2/Rog3/Pal3. AC 39/40, good attack, Whirlwind Attack and Kick Ass with Reach Weapon. Never hit with Invisibility & Displacement.
Try this if you dare (i did and it was INSANE !)


Keep on Fighting !

.


@Mulligan:


absolutely right especially with the elf druid crafter - how could I miss this one ! - *banging head against the desk*


...only problem is that you only can have 5 PCs and NPCs won't craft (sad that Meleny and especially Kella don't take any crafting feat - but have lots of stupid feats they will never use)


I have 2 crafters in my party a cleric and a wizard...

...the cleric is much weaker in melee then expected (or my 2 main melee fighters are just extremly strong)

but the only one who can

- craft holy items...

- turn undead (in his case instant kill of all undeads)

- and the not necessary but usefull instant healing spells


but more or less a cleric is not required for a party but makes the life much easier...


...the wizard (barb1 / wiz 9 with crafting set to level 9 using a glaive)

is extremly powerfull...

- great reach fighter with an enchanted glaive (most of the time fighting with my sorc for the lead in the most damage list) hits most of the time with a +3 glaive

- great crafter (especially wands for my melee fighters)

- and back-up caster for my sorc



so it's hard to skip one of the 2 crafters for the elf druid



...my 2 melee fighters, the "kensai" and the "assassin" (fighter 6 - rogue 3 - wizard 1)


and the sorc with GSF evocation and empowered spells...


...are all to powerfull to skip....



...so it's a little flawed that NPCs can't craft !


.

Originally posted by Mulligan
Silverdragon72 released in another thread a build for a Quad build that's extremely strong, a "Kensai" Ftr2/Mnk2/Rog3/Pal3. AC 39/40, good attack, Whirlwind Attack and Kick Ass with Reach Weapon. Never hit with Invisibility & Displacement.
Try this if you dare (i did and it was INSANE !)

...if you raise "use magic item" up to 15+ she can use wands of mirror image, shield and displacement without any problems and will be completely impossible to hit !


btw. try the assassin (fighter 6 - rogue 3 - wiz 1) - he is even better (tactical) from my point of view...


...hasted and invisible you can place him next to the main enemy threat and with the "100% chance to deal 200+ HPs damage per round" (if placed in 5-feet range) he will take out even most of the bosses before combat has started !

...and with the 1 wizard level he can use all crafted wands without any problems...-...also close to impossible to hit this way


...and the guaranteed 200+ HPs per round even against Luz are just awesome !


.

Silverdragon72 released in another thread a build for a Quad build that's extremely strong, a "Kensai" Ftr2/Mnk2/Rog3/Pal3. AC 39/40, good attack, Whirlwind Attack and Kick Ass with Reach Weapon. Never hit with Invisibility & Displacement.
Try this if you dare (i did and it was INSANE !)

how dare you mock the wonderfull kensai
a true kensai would be fighter 8 monk 2 NO ROGUE OR PALADIN
Kensai wear NO armor OR shields and use ONLY 1 type of SWORD, hence the name "Kensai" or "Swordsaint" which is wut it means

I think (hope?) you're kidding, but just in case... "kensai" doesn't really mean jack. There's really no official errata regarding them; you can look up three different class templates and they'll all be totally different.

kensai means swordsaint
even though they vary between who makes them they focus with no armor and a single melee weapon in EACH AND EVERY variation

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/kensai.htm

Originally posted by Raumoheru
kensai means swordsaint
even though they vary between who makes them they focus with no armor and a single melee weapon in EACH AND EVERY variation

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/kensai.htm

Although Kensai most ofen use a type of swords, that's not always the case. Your own evidence here works against you i'm afraid.

Following your link i got this description :

Description: Kensai means "sword saint" or "sword master" and is usually applied to characters who have perfected the art of fighting with the sword. In the Oriental AD&D game this is broadened to include almost any type weapon or fighting skill. Thus, there may be Kensai who use halberds, Kensai who use swords, Kensai who use unarmed fighting styles, etc.

Halberd is a reach weapon....

So i guess a "Kensai" really means "Weapon master" more than "Sword Master" ....

Anyway, the fun part is to specialize in a weapon, just to see how it works. Reach weapons are powerful, but my "Scythe" specialist has the higest damage score.

Have Fun

The build you posted is allowed to use armour in exchange for its natural speed and AC increases, just like a monk. Light armour is accepted here, and here, and here (the last one was officially published in Dragon, supposedly). The only real consistency between kensai writeups is the mastery of a weapon, they're basically an oriental weapon master...

silverdragon, can you elaborate on your assassin build? In terms of feats?

Originally posted by Armisael
silverdragon, can you elaborate on your assassin build? In terms of feats?

assassin:

human CG

rogue 3 - (1st)
fighter 6 - (2nd and 9th)
wizard 1 - (10th)


the main idea behind this build is that fragarach and scather always hit - so you don't have to care about your AB !


feats:


2WF - 3rd attack

power attack - max it after you get the swords

comb. exp. - see above

cleave - you will always kill one target in one round so you will always cleave

great cleave - this way he kills 6 or 7 gargoyles in one round

imp. 2WF - 4th attack (5 hasted) that never miss

imp. init - not necessary but gives you an attack on a flatfooted enemy in the 1st round

imp. crit. - great synergies with great cleave !


.

Originally posted by Raumoheru
how dare you mock the wonderfull kensai
a true kensai would be fighter 8 monk 2 NO ROGUE OR PALADIN
Kensai wear NO armor OR shields and use ONLY 1 type of SWORD, hence the name "Kensai" or "Swordsaint" which is wut it means

don't want to argue what is the exact build of a kensai - but I don't think that it has to be fighter 8 - monk 2


as I understand the kensai - he is close to a samurai, the asian equivalent to a paladin...

...and he has some code of honor like a paladin...


so I think a paladin should be component of a kensai build


where I agree is, that a kensai should fight with one weapon, no shield and no armor...


but this exactly does my "kensai"-build


and I think a kensai fights with some finesse, flexibility, cleverness, sneaks and hides and knows where to hit his enemy best and will be a good speaker and diplomat - and that's the reason to give him some rogue level...


btw. I always said it's a "kensai"-build and not a kensai !


...and last but not least this combination is just awesome - and that should be most important !


.

Cheers, might give that a go...

don't want to argue what is the exact build of a kensai - but I don't think that it has to be fighter 8 - monk 2


as I understand the kensai - he is close to a samurai, the asian equivalent to a paladin...

...and he has some code of honor like a paladin...


so I think a paladin should be component of a kensai build


where I agree is, that a kensai should fight with one weapon, no shield and no armor...


but this exactly does my "kensai"-build


and I think a kensai fights with some finesse, flexibility, cleverness, sneaks and hides and knows where to hit his enemy best and will be a good speaker and diplomat - and that's the reason to give him some rogue level...


btw. I always said it's a "kensai"-build and not a kensai !


...and last but not least this combination is just awesome - and that should be most important !

ok first off......Samuri means Warrior in japanese they would be FIGHTERS not PALADINS. They have a high honor code yes and wud be like knights. but knights are not paladins. they r just good fighter with lawfull attitudes and follow a strict code...not always the code of the paladin. second kensai the word translates "Swordsaint". it doesnt mean they HAVE to use a sword but they typically do. KENSAI AND SAMURAI ARE NOTHING ALIKE!!!! SAMURAI TRAIN TOGETHER AND ARE COMRADES WHILE A KENSAI TRAINS ALONE ALL BY HIMSELF!! JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH ASIAN DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING!

"a kensai fights with some finesse, flexibility, cleverness, sneaks and hides and knows where to hit his enemy best and will be a good speaker and diplomat"

geeee lemme think.....uhhh monk has hide move, silently, and diplomacy.....

btw a character like that u made wud be very intersting but a paladin rogue makes no sense. general rogue stuff goes against their honor. manipulating...sneaking around....stealing....the works.

whatever works for u is fine but it is not a true kensai

Knight = paladin. Same thing. The D&D conception of a paladin pretty much stems from that of real-world monastic knights, who were also referred to as warrior monks. Check your facts first.

Samurai weren't just soldiers. They were regarded as a noble class, and by the seventeenth century or so were very much monastic in their own way. Paladin would be a far more accurate class for the purpose of emulating a samurai than fighter would.

And yes, there are stark similarities between the samurai and the whole kensai deal. Weapons (and swords in particular) were very, very significant to samurai, I don't know if you've heard.

samurai were noble yes and knights were too

but samurai had respect for ALL living things and their weapons armor etc kensai love their weapons yes but doesnt mean they r samurai cuz they do

Knight = paladin. Same thing.

no that is completely wrong. altho knights were religious just like all else at that time, they are different. palaidns are very much different then a knight. most prestige classes are made for fighters and can have paladins in their ranks but they r typically not paladins because they follow a dynasty or king rather then a god. and guess what? prestige classes for samurai do not have them use spells but train on archery, horse back riding, which they r famous for, and using a katana or a dai-katana on a horse. which require many needed feats to be good in that class...sooo....fighter bonus feats......

that is as naive as sayin that all muslims are terrorists. or hey i love tea i must be british. it is far more complicated then your simple mind can understand Armisael.....dumbass

Originally posted by Raumoheru
samurai were noble yes and knights were too

but samurai had respect for ALL living things and their weapons armor etc kensai love their weapons yes but doesnt mean they r samurai cuz they do


no that is completely wrong. altho knights were religious just like all else at that time, they are different. palaidns are very much different then a knight. most prestige classes are made for fighters and can have paladins in their ranks but they r typically not paladins because they follow a dynasty or king rather then a god. and guess what? prestige classes for samurai do not have them use spells but train on archery, horse back riding, which they r famous for, and using a katana or a dai-katana on a horse. which require many needed feats to be good in that class...sooo....fighter bonus feats......

that is as naive as sayin that all muslims are terrorists. or hey i love tea i must be british. it is far more complicated then your simple mind can understand Armisael.....dumbass

Raumoheru, please, your getting out of line here. !!

In a D&D game, whether to disscuss wich PC build really makes a "true" Kensai is pointless....

Have you ever made a Lawful Good Rouge, (strong in PnP's) or a Lawful Good "Necromancer" wizard.??

Ypu really should read some of the posts above; your own, for instance, prove you wrong about Kensai builds.

You really should read the "Kensai" threads above !!!

A Kensai could, Specialize in Unarmed Combat, Any Sword, Or any other melee Weapon of Choice, as a Guisarme, Battle Axe, or Exotic Weapons allowed.

Ones opinion of how a Kensi, or a Kensai Build, should be made are of course personal.

Raumoherus' choice of F8 /Mnk 2 is valid, but if you have ever played a Rouge AL : LG or a Wiz-Necro Al : LG you'll really see that "Evil" is more personality fixed than normal for "Good " Chars.

Again, a Lawful Good Rouge don't steal, but he can "backstab" or "sneak" because he "knows" where to hit/hurt. If you want, refer to LG or Good "prestige classes" in 3.5 D&D game.

After all, TOEE "IS" a D&D Game, and has many options availible.

A "Kensai" must be Lawful ....Wihich means Lawful Evil is a valid build... Then Rouge would be fine..

This is the way i read samurai code and this is the way
any "Oriental" Kensai, (made in the D&D game) should behave, I.E. extremely lawful.

Samurai vs Paladin = the same in game terms, except for "Code" issues. Samurai "has" to follow "Masters" wishes or become "fallen", Paladin has the same vs. his god.

There are lots of different Codes...You could make your own if you want to...

But be kind to remember that "westian" Paladins slaughtered thousands of innocent "Muslims" during the "Holy Wars" a thousand years ago, in the Crusade for Jerusalem.

--Leave POLITICS out of this forum---

I really like your threads, but you are overdoing it. !!

Please reconsider, it's only a "KENSAI build"....

What is a "PALADIN" ??

It is a "DEVOTED WARRIOR", normally to a "Faith/God". Rules say that "faith" is not required, a "cause" is enough.

What is "SAMURAI" ??

It is a "DEVOTED WARRIOR", normally to a "Master", or "Ruler" in the Japaneese history. Rules say that "Master" is not required, then "Ronin" (Masterless Samurai) takes effect.

By comparison Samurai & Paladin are identical for game purposes: Devotion to a "CAUSE".

A plaldin has "PERSONAL FAITH", not his god, as devotion.
A samurai has "MASTER" with portfolios, as his devotion.
A ronin (masterless Samurai) can have "ANY" devotion in his "MASTERS" portfolio as devotion, and new "causes" too.
A "KENSAI" (Supreme Fighter) has "PERSONAL WEAPON & STUDY" as devotion.

Choice of weapons have no effect on a "TRUE" Kensai, but he'll suffer penalties with other than his/hers "devoted focus" weapon.

Read the threads, Man, (and your thoughts wiil .....)

most prestige classes are made for fighters and can have paladins in their ranks but they r typically not paladins because they follow a dynasty or king rather then a god.

I said MONASTIC KNIGHTS, you moron. As in non-secular knights; knights in service of a church rather than a crown. But hey, just keep taking me out of context, it's a surefire way to win an argument. That's it for me, I'm not going to waste my time on someone as ignorant and abrasive as you.

Originally posted by Armisael
I said MONASTIC KNIGHTS, you moron. As in non-secular knights; knights in service of a church rather than a crown. But hey, just keep taking me out of context, it's a surefire way to win an argument. That's it for me, I'm not going to waste my time on someone as ignorant and abrasive as you.

Ok !


This thread was started by me (Mulligan) but i'd never hoped to be called a "moron" in my own thread. There semes to be some confusion about who's the "moron" here, but i'll take none of that, any moron calling another moron moron is a moron !!!

If you post in the forum you are dedicated, and no "moron".

Now please behave as adults would and don't get unfriendly !

Post replyer "Raumoheru" had some serious griefs and complaints about the "Kensai" discussion. Raumoheru is no
"moron", but he has a clear definition of how "his" Kensai" should be.

"Armisael" had different views and also is no "moron", but a conflict of oppinions issued betweene these two.

I argued for the fact that a Kensai could be "any" weapon master, and i stand for that. Later posts elaborated on which is the "true" kensai. And here there seems to be conflicts with RAUMOHERUS'S posts and ARMISAEL'S posts.

You two can't seem to agree on this fact, but please, don't become enemies because of this minor detail.

Be friends. Discuss openly and don't use "ugly" and "discriminating" names. We are all here to share knowledge and fun experiences.

A game with Lvl cap on 10 shows either 1): "Pure-devoted Class-science", OR "How to do do as much as possible-science", but the game, while played numerous times, always seem to make us come up with new ideas.

The basis of confilict here is silverdragon72's post on his "Kensai build". This really shouldn't cause any enemity between parts, but sometimes people get carried away...

I too got carried away, and i sincerely apoplgize to anyone that got hurt by my statements.

I'm so sorry.

I will try my best not to offend anyone in the future.

I do hope that people will continue to post, in all manner of threads, to further our common knowledge of this (Bugged as it is) Great Game !

Sincercely

Wasn't calling you names, Mulligan... I was addressing Raumoheru, who's just been incredibly rude and petulant from his first post in this thread.