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Hello, gang.


I was browsing through the forum, when an old thread by Indra, I believe, struck me: a multi thief party. I began to think about it and wondered if this could be a good idea. From the roleplaying point of view the concept seems intriguing and I am kind of tired of playing fighters and paladins, and bards... well, let's just say I really don't know how to use them effectively.

So, I started playing with pen and paper to see if a viable multi thief party could be made. These are my ideas:

1) PC - Swaskbuckler: a character with good Strength, Dexterity and Constitution Stats. Will do a fair deal of the fighting. Dual weapon skill strongly advised. Will also take care of pickpocketing and maybe detecting illusions;

2) Custom made NPC - Thief: a character with excellent Dexterity and decent Strength and Constitution. Will take care of traps and locks, even if his/her skills will focus on Hide in Shadows and Move silently for scouting and backstabbing purposes. Will also be used as an archer;

3) Yoshimo: The only true thief in SOA, a character with interesting stats. Will work with traps and provide some help with trap disabling, locks and bows;

4) Jan Jensen: will be used mainly as a mage before Imoen is rescued, so it is mainly a short term solution before Spellhold. I am kind of undecided if to dump him before the Journey to Brynnlaw;

5) Viconia: not a thief, but an impressive cleric and an interesting NPC. Will make an interesting romance, too <evil grin>;

6) A good melee fighter: I am kind of undecided between Minsc and Korgan. I have never tried Korgan and I find him kind of funny for a chaotic evil berserker, but there is an annoying bug with his quest that always prevents me from completing said quest; Minsc is also a good choice and lots of fun, but I am afraid he will be difficult to keep in line in a thief-made party (too many moral dilemmas, here).

Now my assorted rantings:

One of my worries about this party is that there is only one good melee fighter (the swashbuckler can be at best decent in battle). Obviously Hide in Shadows and backstab will have to be the rule of the day, if only I can get them to work properly (Run away, Hide, Return, backstab, repeat the process), and considering that Dragons, undead and other powerful enemies cannot be backstabbed.

Also, I don't know if such a party will work well against magic users: I have always used Jaheira's insect plague to deal with them and found it an unsurpassed way of disabling them. With this party no such easy tricks: any ideas?

And then, there is the question if such a party could make it through TOB: I admit to be a little skeptical...although bringing along Sarevok might help.

One easy objection to my party would be its redundancy: after all, Imoen alone is able to take care of all traps and locks. I cannot but agree, but I see this as an exercise in roleplaying and not powergaming, so I am afraid I cannot but have AT LEAST three thieves in my party. With this limitations is it possible to make it through SOA?

Suggestions? Ideas? Flames? Help me out with this, gentlemen.

BG2 is a combat-oriented game. That's one of the best things about it. Unfortunately, however, that means that thieving options are limited. Until you acquire Use Any Item (which will open a lot of creative possibilities), you'll end up using backstabs (and missing most of the time) and traps (which aren't that great until you get Spike Trap and other High Level Abilities). If you have a melee warrior or a Swashbuckler in the party, you'll probably rely on him to do everything. A high score in Pickpocketing can help you steal from store, but very few people are worth pickpocketing. Detect Illusion is inferior to other forms of Divination, and there aren't any real "illusions" to detect in the game, anyway. There are only so many locks to pick and traps to disarm, and you only need one Thief for that. When you get down to it, there really isn't much for a Thief to do in the game. There aren't any true roleplaying opportunities for a party of Thieves. You can't bribe officials and steal precious documents and blackmail key figures to defeat your opponents. Selective assassination won't win the day; the game requires wholesale slaughter. In the end, you'll have to rely on swords and magic to get the job done, and Thieves just aren't very good in that department compared to other classes.

I once played Shadows of Amn with a party of Bards. (I did it before Throne of Bhaal was released.) They weren't very good at combat at lower levels, which made the game challenging. At higher levels, they used a great deal of magic, which made them effective. Not every party member was a Bard. The core of the party was a set of Bhaalspawn triplets--a Blade, a Skald, and a Jester. I gave all of them the Slayer Change ability just for fun, but I didn't use it very much (or abuse it). I used my imagination to roleplay. The in-game dialogue didn't cover everything they did; my own handwritten journal was much more in-depth. (They made the streets of Athkatla safe to walk so that people could come to their shows.) But at the same time, I stuck very closely to the original story, and that's what determined the rest of my party composition. I had to have Haer'Dalis (and the Bard stronghold) of course. Since Aerie is a performer (or at least a wannabe) and since she and Haer'Dalis become romantically involved, I also had to have Aerie in the party (her vocals and her acting got better). When I rescued Imoen from Spellhold, I couldn't kick her out of the party (how could I?), so I gave her a tambourine and let her stay wth the group. A Thief/Mage is not far from a "jack-of-all-trades", and if you give her an instrument, she's not far from a Bard. I took advantage of her Thieving skills and her bow, but I played her primarily as a Mage in combat since she could cast higher level spells than everyone else. I didn't have a pure "all-Bard party", but it was a lot of fun.

I once heard about someone who played an all-Thief party, but I don't know the details. (That's part of what inspired me to play a "Bard Party".) You could play a party of Thieves if you wanted to, but I think you need to use your own imagination to fill in the gaps, and I think you should make your party flexible instead of trying to make it an "all-Thief party". To avoid some of the difficulty, maybe you don't need to kill every monster in the game. For example, in Throne of Bhaal, you don't need to slaughter every member of your enemies' armies. (How many fire giants, orogs, and mercenaries do you need to kill?) You might have to pass up the biggest opportunity for combat in Watcher's Keep (if you know what I'm talking about), but you won't lose any experience for it, and in fact, it's supposed to be an optional fight, anyway, and the alternative solution is strongly encouraged by the game. If your party is not making as many kills and you're getting less experience, then that suggests that you should play with a smaller party. But if you want a better roleplaying experience, a full party of six is nice.

By the way, "roleplaying" means really getting involved in the characters and the story. The abilities of your characters are important, but I don't think you should spend a lot of time worrying about who is going to do the pickpocketing, who is going to detect the traps, who is going to do the backstabbing, etc., etc. Once you decide where to put your thieving points, you don't need to think about it anymore. Your backstabber needs good armor, low THAC0, and lots of points in Hide in Shadows and Move Silently; and the person detecting traps needs lots of points in Find Traps. That determines their "role" in the party. But when it comes to "roleplying", it's more important to think about who your characters are, why they're traveling together, what their goals are, and how they feel about their adventures.

Back to party composition. Don't underestimate the Swashbuckler kit. A Swashbuckler does very well in melee. (I wouldn't have him use Detect Illusion, because that would immobilize him.) Korgan would be a good back-up member for a Thief-oriented party. However, I'm afraid that he would end up doing all of the killing and ruin your diversity, so I would add him only as a last resort. As an alternative, you could add a Blade to the party and make him (or her) a Thief at heart, or you could play a Fighter/Thief. A Blade (such as Haer'Dalis) could help you deal with enemy Mages. But of course, there are already two Thieves in the game who are also Mages--namely, Imoen and Jan--and either of them can defeat enemy Mages singlehanded.

Your goal should be to acquire Use Any Item as soon as possible. I know it takes a long time. But once you have it, you can do just about anything if you can figure out how to optimize the use of items available to you. (I like to use the Helm of Vhailor and let my duplicate use scrolls without losing them permanently.) Maybe you could stretch the rules and make one of your Thieves a specialist in copying and forging (that is, scribing) magic scrolls to give yourself a better supply of them. I mean, if an NPC Mage can build huge, elaborate labs inside the game (e.g., Irenicus at Spellhold), then why can't one of your party members do something a little creative? (I enjoy pretending that I smash up what's left of Spellhold and set it on fire before I leave, which means that my Mages have to figure out a way to get around the wards and enchantments.)

I can already see an interesting party: Jan (the fast-talking con man), a Swashbuckler (the showman who draws a crowd and creates diversions), an Assassin (the silent killer), Yoshimo (you know, the great Yoshimo?), and Imoen (the studious Thief who can unravel the secrets of magic). You might bring along Haer'Dalis on your more flamboyant adventures (is there anything interesting for him in the Unfinished Business MOD?), and you can hire Korgan for the "wetworks" when things get really messy. I'm not sure how Viconia (the evil Priestess) would fit in, but if you can think of a way, why not?

You could also create a multi-class Fighter/Thief in place of (or in addition to) the Swashbuckler, Haer'Dalis, or Korgan. A Fighter dualled to a Thief might seem more potent in Shadows of Amn (before you acquire High Level Abilities), but when you get to Throne of Bhaal and acquire those High Level Abilities, a multi-class Fighter/Thief will really shine. My only fear is that a Fighter/Thief would do practically all of the killing (e.g., backstabbing) and ruin your diversity.

I don't think that Minsc (the hero's hero who would never "stoop" to Jan's level even if he could) would fit in, although he's certainly gullible enough for you to fool him and manipulate him if that's how you want to play him. Sarevok (the formerly ambitious schemer) could help you devise plans and strategies, but his old ambitions were of conquest, and they died with him at Baldur's Gate. I think he would be less useful than Korgan, who is even more bloodthirsty and much more mercenary. I would avoid Nalia ("helping" people?), Valygar (the ill-humored scout and tracker) and all of the other NPCs I haven't mentioned yet (Jaheira, Aerie, Cernd, Edwin, Mazzy, Keldorn, and Anomen). Edwin has worked for the Shadow Thieves, of course, and he is an excellent Mage, but I would rather have Imoen and Jan in a "Thief Party" because they are true Thieves.

Sounds like a great party RepDetect...thieves are my favourite character class of all.

One of my worries about this party is that there is only one good melee fighter (the swashbuckler can be at best decent in battle). Obviously Hide in Shadows and backstab will have to be the rule of the day, if only I can get them to work properly (Run away, Hide, Return, backstab, repeat the process), and considering that Dragons, undead and other powerful enemies cannot be backstabbed.

Your Swashy will shine as a front liner, they end up with an outrageous AC especially by the time you get to ToB. Anything that grants invisibilty helps you backstab without running round a corner in order to hide in shadows...requires a bit of micro management (drink potion, move behind target, STAB!) but you know how devestating a tactic it can be. Speed increasing devices will also help when you do have to hide in shadows. As for Dragons and Liches, use all those traps. Many people find thieves traps cheesy but its not like they can be used any other way. Spike trap is arguably the most powerful weapon in the game. Although there is a limit on how many can be set in one area, you can always be setting more out of the enemies sight after the first lot have gone off and lure them into them...

Also, I don't know if such a party will work well against magic users: I have always used Jaheira's insect plague to deal with them and found it an unsurpassed way of disabling them. With this party no such easy tricks: any ideas?

Someone with decent detect illusion will remove many mage protections...ammuntion that deals elemental damage is very useful too as the fire, electricity, whatever goes straight through stoneskins and has a chance of spell disruption. As VonD. says, UAI is the real turning point though...then the tactical options become limitless...

Haer'Dalis

(is there anything interesting for him in the Unfinished Business MOD?),

Not yet...but as he had two quests cut, there may well be soon.

First things first: thank you very much for your in-depth response.

Detect Illusion is inferior to other forms of Divination, and there aren't any real "illusions" to detect in the game, anyway.

Hmm... does it work against invisible enemies?

There are only so many locks to pick and traps to disarm, and you only need one Thief for that. When you get down to it, there really isn't much for a Thief to do in the game. There aren't any true roleplaying opportunities for a party of Thieves. You can't bribe officials and steal precious documents and blackmail key figures to defeat your opponents. Selective assassination won't win the day; the game requires wholesale slaughter. In the end, you'll have to rely on swords and magic to get the job done, and Thieves just aren't very good in that department compared to other classes.

Good point. Actually, Imoen (once you get her back) is more than adequate to deal with traps and locks.
A possible solution would be dual classing to fighter but somehow it defies the idea of having a thief party: I mean, if I would want a fighter I would create a fighter in the first place. On the other hand, I admit to be some sort of twisted purist and I don't like too much dual classed characters (or multi-class for that matter).

I can already see an interesting party: Jan (the fast-talking con man), a Swashbuckler (the showman who draws a crowd and creates diversions), an Assassin (the silent killer), Yoshimo (you know, the great Yoshimo?), and Imoen (the studious Thief who can unravel the secrets of magic). You might bring along Haer'Dalis on your more flamboyant adventures (is there anything interesting for him in the Unfinished Business MOD?), and you can hire Korgan for the "wetworks" when things get really messy.

Well, with the exception on the assassin seems very similar to my original configuration. I have heard interesting things about the Assassin kit but I never tried it.

I'm not sure how Viconia (the evil Priestess) would fit in, but if you can think of a way, why not?

Well, considering that a paladin actually can have Viconia in the party and actually romance her, it doesn't seem too strange an idea. Having LG Anomen in a thief party... now that would be crazy.
Anyway, I have always wondered what kind of person actually would like an evil drow in his party (without being evil of his/her own, of course). Wondering this, I also was trying to solve the fascinating puzzle about why I actually like Viconia as a character, to the point I almost always accept her offer to join after rescuing her.
Form my point of view (roleplaying, remember?), only a character not too restrained by the law, not blinded by prejudice, with a chaotic streak in him (and a very big heart, bordering to foolishness) could feel some sort of interest for the exiled drow. Somehow, I feel the Swashbuckler fits the bill nicely...

I don't think that Minsc (the hero's hero who would never "stoop" to Jan's level even if he could) would fit in, although he's certainly gullible enough for you to fool him and manipulate him if that's how you want to play him.

Unless I play a "good Thief", I think. I remeber some interesting reactions by Minsc during the Mae'Var quest, though.

Sarevok (the formerly ambitious schemer) could help you devise plans and strategies, but his old ambitions were of conquest, and they died with him at Baldur's Gate.

Actually, Sarevok has his good reasons for wanting to follow the PC in TOB. I don't see too many problems with it, but a big question remains: would a PC thief

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try to change his alignment, and why exactly?

I would avoid Nalia ("helping" people?),

Her and her annoying "For the needy!".

Anything that grants invisibilty helps you backstab without running round a corner in order to hide in shadows...requires a bit of micro management (drink potion, move behind target, STAB!) but you know how devestating a tactic it can be.

Only problem is that invisibility potions are finite in numbers and many enemies who drop them have this annoying habit of using them all, unless you are obscenely fast in wasting them.

Speed increasing devices will also help when you do have to hide in shadows. As for Dragons and Liches, use all those traps. Many people find thieves traps cheesy but its not like they can be used any other way. Spike trap is arguably the most powerful weapon in the game. Although there is a limit on how many can be set in one area, you can always be setting more out of the enemies sight after the first lot have gone off and lure them into them...

Thanks for the tips. Actually, I see this as a new way of playing the game, one that sounds interesting.

Originally posted by VonDondu
Detect Illusion is inferior to other forms of Divination, and there aren't any real "illusions" to detect in the game, anyway.

I disagree. Detect Illusion skill over 100 or so can get rid of all kinds of invisibility even if the enemy is protected by Spell Immunity: Divination. This makes thieves extremely useful IMHO, especially in anti-cheese mods where spellcasters are scripted to resist True Sight and remain untargettable with spells.

No money problems with thieves either. You can buy anything from the very beginning (you just need to invest some in thieving potions).

-kaitsuburi

Originally posted by RepDetect61850
Only problem is that invisibility potions are finite in numbers and many enemies who drop them have this annoying habit of using them all, unless you are obscenely fast in wasting them.

Steal them. Steal anything and everything you need (you are a thief after all). Steal things you don't need and sell them in order to buy stuff from stores which can't be robbed such as Ribald. A set of fully charged wands or enough money to get to spellhold can be yours within hours of leaving Chateaux Irenicus if you so desire. Ribald has infinite rings of air control, which give you improved invisibilty once per day, so five of those would give you five free back stabs. Steal strength potions (the brown ones which give 18 strength) to increase your THAC0.

Just make sure that anything you think you'll need to recharge in ToB has been 'laundered' -- ie, sold to a fence and then bought back legally -- as I've yet to find anyone who'll handle stolen goods once you get to that part of the game.

I disagree. Detect Illusion skill over 100 or so can get rid of all kinds of invisibility even if the enemy is protected by Spell Immunity: Divination.

Yep, detect invisibilty is the mother of all divinations and will cut through almost anything (mirror image, blur, improved invisibilty, mislead unless the clone is nowhere in sight).

Originally posted by kopywrite
except, sadly, mislead if the clone is nowhere in sight.

I found this out the hard way (improved Mae'var).

Once a battle with an invisible/illusion-protected enemy begins, the thief member of my party commences on a very important mission: dispelling illusions. Thief-mage is great; hasted, wearing non-detection cloak, improved invisible, Spell Immunity: Divination and having 5 invisibility potions just in case, they run all around the battlefield getting rid of pesky illusions. Definitely a key tactic which helps defeat a lot of anti-cheese enemies that even Sir Keldorn cannot see

-kaitsuburi

is detect invis. better then true seeing?? and blurr? is that disspelled with a detect spell??

Detect illusion with enough skill points is the bestist way of getting rid of annoying illusions. Very useful when fighting the undead Sola with his improved invisibility/SI:divination/SI:abjuration combo.

Its not without cheese either. If you start swiping at someone, you can click the detect traps/illusions button and still continue fighting. Such concentration!

SPOILERS

Originally posted by RepDetect61850
try to change his alignment, and why exactly?

More spoilers: Some of the options allow you to encourage S. to make his own destiny rather than trying to 'convert' him. More fitting for a good thief imo.

Okay, I guess was wrong about Detect Illusion. I did some tests a long time ago before Throne of Bhaal and most of the MODs came out. To be honest, I don't remember exactly how I made my determination (I know I considered a lot of different trade-offs), and I'm not sure if I could find my notes at this point. The next time I play BG2, I'll definitely make more use of Detect Illusion.

And BTW, thanks for the cheese.