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i know this is probably just a personal choice...
but i think edwin IS better then a sorcerer!
it's true, a sorcerer is more flexible and can cast divination spells, but come on... 2 extra spell per level!!

that's 8 (!) 9th level spells instead of 6 what do you think?

I think a sorcerer still provides so much flexibility that the sorcerer class still outdoes edwin.

However, if you don't play a sorcerer, you won't find a better mage than edwin.

By the time I finished ToB, he had so many spells at each level, it was insane. I could never cast all of them in between periods of resting. That being said, there were also times with edwin, I ran into the 'gee, I wish I had one more of those memorized' situations which doesn't happen with a sorcerer.

I don't understand all this love for sorcerors!
Maybe it's just me, but...
They have few spells, so they'll end using the same tactics
every time.
You have to choose a pair of combo, and then use them all the
time.
Surely powerful if you choose the right spells, but boring!!!!
And they cannot dual!!!!!!!!!

So, I'd go for a mage.
Every possible spell combination will be available!
Edwin is really powerful, but he's evil!
Let him perish in the flames of hell.
The best mage is the one you create by yourself (dualled maybe? )

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Littiz ]

I think a well played sorcerer or wild mage can be more powerful. Try to solo Improved ToB battles and Ascension with "Edwin".

Project Image and simulacrum makes the sorceror so much more powerful than a regular mage. Just my opinion.

Yes, that is an important advantage of the sorcerer over normal/specialist mages. But with 8-9 slots/level (Edwin) the Simulacrum/Project image is already versatile enough. And the most versatile is the Simulacrum of the wild mage.

A sorc just keeps getting better and better, acquiring more spells and (more importantly!) copies of spells as they make levels. It's a tough kind of mage to play, but IMO, stronger in the long run than ordinary specialists.

I agree with fable

I like Edwin for his extra spells i hate his statistics

Str:10
Dex:10
Con:16
Int:18
wis:10
Cha:10

he has the int for being able to write as many spells as possible and the con to get maximum amount of hp's/lvl, but the according to the manual a mage should get a spell failure % of 15 with wisdom of 10, i don't remember edwin ever failing a spell..
so is wisdom a waste of points to a mage (except for little bit better saving throws)?

and his all around 10's it's so not RP so different from the other NPC's, he's 10dex makes his AC pain in the arse too...
(yes, yes gauntlets of AC3/staff of magi etc. but still)

Wisdom is only important for dialogs - especially for Wish/Limited)Wish. Dexterity has some importance for mages/sorcerers (AC, ranged attack modifier), but not a necessity (Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Protection from xxx weapon, Mislead, etc.) and there is also the Gauntlet of Dexterity.

The thing is, unless if ALL your partymembers have low wisdom, dialogues don't matter since all you need to do is initiate dialogue with your good wisdom/charisma character.

sorc is the best spell caster, you can have a 10th level sorc beat the snot out of a 20th level specialist mage, except possibly wild mage, if they have a lot of nrw memorized.

sure, edwin can have all the spells in world, but to put in bluntly, alson an littz, guys, the key to createing a successful sorc is a piece of paper, with many hours spent weighing the merits of one spell over another. you have to choose, and choose most carefully, the spell table. the sorc can only be really played out by someone who has read xyx spell guide and the manual provided with the game several times and has lurked and read this forum for all topics having to do with spells.

for example, a sorc player will know fireball has a damage cap, while skull traps dont, and make chices carefully. while fireball has a cap, the range is better and less chance of friendly fire. skulls are far less forgiving than fireball for accidentally wasting aparty member. my personal opion is to use sull traps in skull fire spell 90% of time. cast spell immunity necromancy, and cast a spell triggered triple skull on yourself, and you wont see the nasty "spell failed" message when trying to use triggerd skull traps on a distant enemy.

not only is sthe sorc a better spell casting class than a mage, the typical sorc player has a good grounding on spells and effects, at least the common ones, and knows how to strech them out. so is it the chicken or egg? is the sorc a better spell casting class than mage, or are the people who play sorc better with spell casters classes???


YES and YES!

At low levels the sorcerer are not tahat powerful as they have problems keeping a balanced set of spells. A 10th level specialist is usually stronger (and can beat) the 10th level sorcerer (if the specialist knows what lies ahead). And the 10th level wild mage is probably the weakest of all (the chance of a successful NRD is too low).

at 10th level, your basic spell caster duel will be either fire arrows or magic missiles. there, the sorc with many, many 1st level spells will outlast and out cast teh specialist mage.

kovi, dude, I know youve played both sorc and mages, look me in the eye and say a specailist mage is better...


can't, eh?

UserUnfriendly, you are underestimating me!
I know maybe as much as you about spells and cheesy tactics,
(which I don't like), and I have read repeatedly Xyx's spells guide
(and I think that some spells should get an higher score).
You said yourself: you have to PLAN!
You' ll use always the same tactics!
I know skull trap does double damage, yet, in some circumstances I needed fire or more range, so I keep both memorized.
I like to vary and sorcerers are too much limited in spell selection.
I keep memorized spells that maybe you'll never use, just for the
fun of that single time that they come in help!
In the end, a well used mage is more versatile than a sorcerer.
And remember that sorcerers cannot dual!

@UserUnfriendly
There can be much more "depth" in these low level spell duels than just firing those invocation spells. For Magic Missile there is Shield for Fire arrows there is Mirror Image, Protection from Fire or Minor Globe of Invulnerability. A (specialist) mage can be more versatile in this level.

@Littiz
Above level20 even a no-item sorcerer can have all the necessary spells to deal with any situation effectively. A pure mage or specialist can be a bit more effective in a couple of situations (if he know it in advance or happens to memorize just the necessary spells), but generally it is much less effective and could have real problems in some harder battles.
But you are right, the biggest advantage of the normal and specialist mage (over the sorcerer and wild mage) is the dual/ multi feature. The special and high level abilities of the other class could balance the things even.

Originally posted by Alson
i know this is probably just a personal choice...
but i think edwin IS better then a sorcerer!
it's true, a sorcerer is more flexible and can cast divination spells, but come on... 2 extra spell per level!!

that's 8 (!) 9th level spells instead of 6 what do you think?

Heh heh, Edwin's extra spells are due to his amulet. So, I "adjusted" the Ring of Acuity to do the same thing. Now my sorceror can cast 8 9th level spells, too.

He he... my Sorc and I played around i SK for a while and after that he had 25 int/wis and could cast 25 spells/lev. ... in Irenicus dungeon! the tiny little creatures ran away when I came near...

bah, if you're gonna cheat go all out with it. Wild mage that always gets the Double spell cast wild surge