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Can anyone tell me why people don't like Cernd? I mean with his wisdom level at 18 (I think) and being able to change into a greater wolfwere, why have I seen so many posts of Cernd not being on the A list or not even the B list of NPC's to choose from.

Sure, he can't wear any armor, but he can cast all the other druid spells just as good. If there's a need for Melee combat just shapeshift. With regenerative powers and great magic/elemental resistances what's the deal?

I understand, if you don't like him for rpg experience that's fine. However, why shoot him down otherwise without trying him in your team?

-------gecko-------------

High Wisdom is not a requirement for high level priest spells. Cernd gets maybe two bonus spells (level 3 and 4) over Jaheira because of his 18 Wisdom.

The Greater Wolfwere sucks in melee in the second half of BG2 - SoA (lousy AC), though I heard rumors of it being much more powerful in ToB (great AC...).

With SoA's XP cap, Jaheira cannot get level 7 spells while Cernd can. Does that weigh up to the lack of tanking abilities?

I think Cernd shapeshifts into a Werewolf, not a wolfwere. Anyway, the only thing I don't like about Cernd is that he can't wear armor and he's the most boring NPC I've ever seen (as far as dialogues go). It would have been better if Cernd were an Avenger instead.

Xyx - not so. The bonus spells for wisdom are cumulative. Jaheira has 14 vs Cernd's 18 wis, therefore Cernd has an extra two first level, two second level, a third and a fourth - a total of six additional spells.
Jaheira is a pretty poor druid, and if she's carried over to ToB she'll be able to access only a couple of high level abilities/spells, since she's multiclassed. Cernd, on the other hand, will be able to get all of them, being single class.
If you can handle the allegorical way Cernd always talks (blight on the vine as seasons change blah, blah, blah) then he should be much more valuable than Jaheira in ToB. On the down side, since Cernd can only shapeshift into a werewolf, he'll probably miss out on the fire elemental form.
You could always use Shadowkeeper to change his kit to an Avenger.

Yes, Cernd gets more spells; but...

There's a concept in chess called Zeugzwang (though I believe I have the spelling wrong). It refers to being "one move too late." You were just one move short of grabbing your opponent's rook in a complicated combination of moves; it took that pawn one move too many to move out of your queen's way.

Cernd's like this, by my way of thinking. Consider: Jaheira is slinging missiles at an enemy. Then, she notices another enemy bearing down her. Next turn, she switches to her blade, and meets the attack. Her enemy's hurt already, she's lucky: the foe dies. She sees some enemy spellcasters revving up, so she fires off an Insect Plague to keep 'em busy.

Cernd is slinging missles, when he notices an enemy bearing down on him. Next turn, he shapeshifts. The enemy gets in a free swing. When he dispatches his enemy, he notices several spellcasters revving up spells. He shapeshifts back--too late: they get off their spells before he can do anything about it. Zeugswang.

it's also worth noting than w/ the xp cap in place cernd maxed out at 14th lv, jaheria maxed at 13 druid & 14th lv ftr.

single class druids are not very popular due to this. (tob has fixed this)

Jaheira has 14 vs Cernd's 18 wis, therefore Cernd has an extra two first level, two second level, a third and a fourth - a total of six additional spells.

Uh, yeah... Didn't remember Jaheira being that un-Wise

Still, what's six low level spells in ToB?

Another point in Cernd's favour is that the spell tables cap out at 31 (apparently) and Jaheira is not going to get that far - so Cernd will have a *lot* more high level spells in addition to more high level quest spells to choose from. Jaheira will have a few fighter special abilities, but I suspect (hope) that ToB will at last allow single classes to outshine the dabblers.
Something implemented in TeamBG's DSotSC that I would like to see more of is 'single class only' items. They had a druid club that doubled as a ranged weapon that did 5 attacks a round, usable only by single class druids - they actually rocked!
Multis and duals are dabblers, and I'd like to see single classes have access to equipment that is denied to others.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Yes, Cernd gets more spells; but...

There's a concept in chess called Zeugzwang (though I believe I have the spelling wrong). It refers to being "one move too late." You were just one move short of grabbing your opponent's rook in a complicated combination of moves; it took that pawn one move too many to move out of your queen's way.

Cernd's like this, by my way of thinking. Consider: Jaheira is slinging missiles at an enemy. Then, she notices another enemy bearing down her. Next turn, she switches to her blade, and meets the attack. Her enemy's hurt already, she's lucky: the foe dies. She sees some enemy spellcasters revving up, so she fires off an Insect Plague to keep 'em busy.

Cernd is slinging missles, when he notices an enemy bearing down on him. Next turn, he shapeshifts. The enemy gets in a free swing. When he dispatches his enemy, he notices several spellcasters revving up spells. He shapeshifts back--too late: they get off their spells before he can do anything about it. Zeugswang.</STRONG>

Probably the best post i've ever seen....really. And i totally agree with you.

I appreciate your input, especially Fable's. However as for myself, I prefer to use Cernd instead of Jaheria. He acts as my utility man. Not particularly both a fighter/cleric in one, but one or the other depending on the circumstance. Also, since he is a single class he levels up pretty fast, allowing you to gain more of the higher level attack spells faster.

Here's my scenerio. Be prepared. If a group of fighters are coming in for the kill, have your tanks stall for time, while Cernd changes into his werewolf/greater werewolf form to provide more backup power for the crew up front. As for mages or a mix of both, I particularly prefer to use my mages to disrupt them (with magic missles of course), giving Cernd enough time to cast the insect plague or transform into human form. I guess what I'm saying is Cernd really doesn't make a great offensive unit unless given the time (or already transformed into the right form needed), but with his ample spells (more because of 18 wis) and strength as a greater werewolf he is the man to provide some added umph in dire times. Also he regenerates pretty quickly leaving the potions/spells to be spent on the primary tanks or any mage that was snuck up on.

He can be used for more than that or less, but this is how I use him. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen cernd's AC drop to -12 (not to sure if it's due to ToB) as a greater werewolf. I think that's enough to say he can match blows with the big boys.

As for Jaheira, I like her as well. Low AC a plus. However, as mentioned before, it all depends on what's needed on your team. Need quicker responses or the nature love of your life she's the one to choose. (However less spells, IMO do pull me away).

-gecko

quote:
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Originally posted by fable:
Yes, Cernd gets more spells; but...
There's a concept in chess called Zeugzwang (though I believe I have the spelling wrong). It refers to being "one move too late." You were just one move short of grabbing your opponent's rook in a complicated combination of moves; it took that pawn one move too many to move out of your queen's way.

Cernd's like this, by my way of thinking. Consider: Jaheira is slinging missiles at an enemy. Then, she notices another enemy bearing down her. Next turn, she switches to her blade, and meets the attack. Her enemy's hurt already, she's lucky: the foe dies. She sees some enemy spellcasters revving up, so she fires off an Insect Plague to keep 'em busy.

Cernd is slinging missles, when he notices an enemy bearing down on him. Next turn, he shapeshifts. The enemy gets in a free swing. When he dispatches his enemy, he notices several spellcasters revving up spells. He shapeshifts back--too late: they get off their spells before he can do anything about it. Zeugswang.


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Probably the best post i've ever seen....really. And i totally agree with you.

Sorry to burst your bubbles but that is not what zugzwang means. Zugzwang is when a chess player is forced to make a bad move through lack of options. For instance, in a king and pawn endgame when the white pawn is one square away from queening and black is on the move. If he can move into the opposition then white has zugzwang and must draw. If he must move out of the opposition, then white wins

I have seen cernd's AC drop to -12 (not to sure if it's due to ToB) as a greater werewolf.

That would be the improvement people on the Black Isle boards were bragging about. Bit of a huge difference. I guess Bio finally realized that Cernd just didn't cut it.

Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>That would be the improvement people on the Black Isle boards were bragging about. Bit of a huge difference. I guess Bio finally realized that Cernd just didn't cut it.</STRONG>

Yup, I mean at first he was at -3 at one point. Then after the installation, POW -12. Who needs armor his hide his better than drow plates on Minsc?

Hehehe...

oops.. My bad. double post.

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: gecko ]

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: gecko ]

Originally posted by gecko:
<STRONG>Yup, I mean at first he was at -3 at one point. Then after the installation, POW -12. Who needs armor his hide his better than drow plates on Minsc?

Hehehe...</STRONG>

Will I get this improvement to Cernd with the add-in or do I have to wait to play the add-on? UPS has my ToB but it's on the way!! I would like to play the improved Cernd right away but plan to play through with were I'm at now (still Chapter 2).

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Lews Therin ]

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Lews Therin ]

Originally posted by Lews Therin:
<STRONG>Will I get this improvement to Cernd with the add-in or do I have to wait to play the add-on? UPS has my ToB but it's on the way!! I would like to play the improved Cernd right away but plan to play through with were I'm at now (still Chapter 2).
</STRONG>

I got it with my char that's in chapter 4, so you should be able to get it as well. Again, you need only install ToB for it to take precedence on the game. However, heed my warning that upon doing so the cloak of mirroring will look like a spell trap (annoying) and the robe of vecna will look different (not used to it yet) as well.