GameBanshee Forums

First let me explain why I am making a new thread. This is off the original threads topic, so I thought it was appropiate to put it in a new thread since its a subject i'd like to discuss. If this isn't right Fable then by all means, delete it, and I apologize in advance.

Anyways. Dragonwench wrote this as an aside to a discussion about Tashia and Kelsay (and the inevitable comments made about which are "cheese" and why)

[rant mode]Throughout these forums there are all kinds of comments about "x" or "y" being too uber. To be honest, I sometimes wonder if some of these statements are more the result of ego, because one implicit meaning behind them is "I'm an amazingly skilled and macho gamer, and therefore I don't need anything special to get through the game..." I'm not saying, that everybody who vociferously objects to 'cheese' or 'uberness' is in this category, some people are simply purists (or they just prefer more of a challenge), but it is certainly evident in many cases. My feeling is, you do have choice, you do not have to use this stuff. If you really want to, you can equip your entire party with no higher than basic studded leather and ordinary weapons with the difficulty set at insane. The game developers were giving people choice, and obviously they wanted to sell the game, which meant appealing to a broad market, one that extended beyond the purist pen & paper Dungeons and Dragons community. (yes, I know there is nothing immune to Timestop in the unmodded, original game, but this same complaint is levelled against items that are legitimately part of SoA. As I said above, there is nothing forcing you to use this stuff and if you are incapable of resisting temptation that is *your* problem) [/rant mode]

I felt compelled to make some mention on this, especially since I was one of the ones who commented that Tashia (or more specifically her pet)was "cheese".

For me, personnally, I generally define cheese as extremely narrow and specific tactics or abilities which have to be defeated in a very specific way. I can explain this better by example. Kangaax is a brilliant example of pure and simple "cheese". In his demi-lich form he throws out imprisonment spells at close to the same rate as a mage making an attack. Almost one a round.

The net result is it is impossible to fight him without countering imprisonment. Obviously your whole party would be imprisoned before he died.

There are a few counters available. Berzerk, Protection from Magic, Spell Immunity Abjuration being the most common. Because Kangaax has only ONE very specific and overpowered attack, when you counter it, he goes from impossible, to a joke.

Let me put it in perspective. The first group of goblins in Irenicus' Dungeoun is more difficult then fighting Kangaax with Korgan. Think about how sad and unfun that is. Here is this super enemy, and the game designers did try to make him a super enemy, and yet because they gave him such a cheesy overpowered attack, once you counter it, he is a total joke. He inflicts as much damage as a civilian would, that is none.

This is cheese to me. When you give a boss cheesy powers, a player is forced to beat that boss in a very specific way. They have to counter the cheese, and the a result is an inevitable loop hole where the battle loses all challange.

Okay, i've written to much and lost all my readers so now i'll finally tie it in with my original point. This is what people tend to complain about as "cheese" dragonwench. We aren't calling ourselves ubersuper players. How much skill does it really take to click on "Berzerker"? None! There is no pride. No satisfaction. No skill. And therefore no fun. And LOTS of battles in SoA are like that. Take meeting the Cowled Wizards in the planar sphere. I think there are like some 3 breach scrolls in the planar sphere, none of them random (all placed by the designers). Most people do the sphere when their wizards are just getting able to memorize breach. If you fight the Cowled Wizards without anyway to get rid of their spell protections, its nearly impossible. If you cast breach twice is a total joke. There is no flexibility, there is a set way to win, and when you figure it out, it sucks.

We cant just "equip short swords and studded leather armor". There is one way, an actual "correct way" to beat many enemies, and when you figure it out its a joke.

BG2 even says so. In their "hints" is this "Changing tactics can change many impossible battles into merely challanging". Except they really arent challanging.

ToB was better with this. Many of the battles are arranged to avoid what I define as "cheese". The battle with Sendai was amazing the first time I played it. Of course it is easier now, because I know what to expect and also because I usually make sure im a higher level going into it now then I did the first time. But the first time I did it it was probably the most exciting fight i've had. The fight with Draconis, and a few of the Watcher Keep encounters are also gems.

So I think you can design battles which reward creative thinking, flexible tactics, and different approaches. Those are the fun ones, the ones that throw 15 different things at you.

Haven't you noticed that battles between "parties" are always more fun then the dragon or lich battles which, quite frankly, are just boring?

Anyways, I just thought you were being unfair to those of us who scream "cheese" all the time. It isn't some "macho" skill thing. If it were about skill, I assure you, I would be giddy with happiness and have nothing to complain about. Its that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH skill thats the problem!

Once you figure it out, it becomes boring, which hurts the replay value.

okay ive talked to much. Thanks to the one person who actually waded through all this. Love ya mom

Fair enough. However, I wasn't necessarily talking about tactics, I was referring to the numerous comments about uber items or Tashia's pet. Agreed, once you know how to exploit the Achilles' heal of the super monsters in the game, replayablility (at least from the beating up monsters angle) does suffer. Moreover, you are right, enemy AI is pretty sad most of the time.
Many of the items people often complain about (like the robe of mirroring for example), make the game even easier, but this is precisely where my peeve lies. There is nothing arm twisting anybody to use these items, so I think the constant references are unnecessary. SoA is not like Morrowind where you don't really have much choice in becoming an uber cheesy character that is basically invulnerable by level 15. I mean, you can opt to go without armour, but that increases your unarmoured skill, hence still making you more difficult to hurt.

But I digress, back to SoA. So yes, where tactics are concerned, I don't dispute your point. Though, I have to say, playing with themed parties does force you to alter game strategy at least somewhat.
However, I think many would argue that SoA's replayability comes more from it's story line and the different NPC interactions. And, just as there NPC mods, there are also all kinds of tactical mods, that truly provide a lot of creative challenge. If you haven't already I recommend checking them out in the sticky Resource thread.

This brings me to a point about mods generally.. Their makers do not get paid, they willingly upload their creations for people to download freely, hence bringing many hours of additional enjoyment to a game that remains popular four years after its release. While some elements of the modders creations may well be cheesy, I don't think anybody, unless they are prepared to sit down and make a mod themselves, is in much of a position to complain too loudly. As I stated with Tashia's pet, just don't summon it, and if you feel the stats of an NPC like Tashia, Solaufein or Chloe are too unrealistic, it is very simple to adjust them with Shadowkeeper.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]There is nothing arm twisting anybody to use these items, so I think the constant references are unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
FINALLY someone who understands......

Yeah, I know that I am a newbie here.. But after reading a large number of posts, I was under the impression that "cheese" referred to items or actions that deliberately and blatently take advantage of AI faults, engine issues, etc. Though sometimes, items that break gameplay can be cheese, too (like the Vecna robe).

Looking at it that way, off-screen casting, trap-laying in spawn locations, and dialogue locking are all "cheese". Personally, I don't use timestop, since it's too susceptable to abuse, and avoid loading down simulacra with 1-shot items that my main toon wont use during the same battle. I do off-screen casting, but my sneaking rogue will appear and shoot at the foe so that they will do the "smart thing" and run towards the caster; this seems valid to me, tho occasionally deadly to the scout .

Your complaint about Kangaxx is that he is a 1-battle monster. That isn't "cheese", it's that you must work on the tactics puzzle that is Kangaxx and come up with a solution. I spent an enjoyable/frustrating afternoon working on tactics to defeat him; after that, I read up on the threads here and saw that there were other (superior) methods as well, but it doesn't detract from *my* victory at all. Single monsters are usually easy to defeat once you come up with a plan for them. That's the nature of the game, and replayability usually only comes from multi-monster encounters, where their interactive actions are not as predictible. This seems true in other venues - in EverQuest, for example, large numbers of PCs tackle the tougher monsters in scripted encounters that usually are pretty boring the 4th time around if there is only 1 beast to battle (you keep doing it for the loot, usually; since that 1 nice sword can only go so far with 50 people all vying for it ).

I sometimes wonder if there isn't a fine line between cheese and thoughtful planning of tacics.....
As an example, I recently had my spellcaster party in the underdark where you have to defeat a demon that can be quite difficult...
Since they are not a melee heavy group I did the following:
1. cast improved invisibility on my whole party
2. summoned beasties
3. invoked demon
4. While demon is busy with the canon fodder my invisible party pelts him with lower resistance and then magic missiles..

It was a short battle.

Now I did wonder afterwards if this wasn't a bit cheesy, but on the other hand, I did need to think carefully about my plan of action. It seemed reasonable enough to use the approach, because the individuals who gave me the quest did specify the demon would appear once I completed a specific action...

Well,

I'm not a good adept of magery. I prefer the hack and slash style. And that is nice, cause when I do use cheese either I'm soloing or facing someone incredibly powerfull, like improved Johnie on Tactics, Ascencion or Redeption mods.

Try this:

Enter Imp Torgal room with your party and try to hack them melee. You are smashed in no time. Now try it wit buffs. You are smashed in a slight bigger time. The extra power they have forces you to cheese, using ubber magics and traps and tactics that will prevent you from losing. I'm not a very good magic user, as I said,but I try to keep most battles uncheesiest as possible.

The exception is when you try to solo the game. Take a FMT and try to not cheese. Yer dead in no time, before finishing Johnie dungeon.

To cheese is to be a lawyer, and to use the sistem in your favour, IMO. It is funny, but it is not cool as the thrill of having a party and trying other things and dying and having to reload...

[QUOTE=iamweaver]Yeah, I know that I am a newbie here.. But after reading a large number of posts, I was under the impression that "cheese" referred to items or actions that deliberately and blatently take advantage of AI faults, engine issues, etc. Though sometimes, items that break gameplay can be cheese, too (like the Vecna robe).

Looking at it that way, off-screen casting, trap-laying in spawn locations, and dialogue locking are all "cheese". Personally, I don't use timestop, since it's too susceptable to abuse, and avoid loading down simulacra with 1-shot items that my main toon wont use during the same battle. I do off-screen casting, but my sneaking rogue will appear and shoot at the foe so that they will do the "smart thing" and run towards the caster; this seems valid to me, tho occasionally deadly to the scout .

Your complaint about Kangaxx is that he is a 1-battle monster. That isn't "cheese", it's that you must work on the tactics puzzle that is Kangaxx and come up with a solution. I spent an enjoyable/frustrating afternoon working on tactics to defeat him; after that, I read up on the threads here and saw that there were other (superior) methods as well, but it doesn't detract from *my* victory at all. Single monsters are usually easy to defeat once you come up with a plan for them. That's the nature of the game, and replayability usually only comes from multi-monster encounters, where their interactive actions are not as predictible. This seems true in other venues - in EverQuest, for example, large numbers of PCs tackle the tougher monsters in scripted encounters that usually are pretty boring the 4th time around if there is only 1 beast to battle (you keep doing it for the loot, usually; since that 1 nice sword can only go so far with 50 people all vying for it ).[/QUOTE]

Well there are more then one kinds of cheese. I had intentions of revisiting this topic again eventually (and I suppose I will now). The reason I didn't go into it the first time is...well....look at the size of that post. Its ridiculous.

Anyways. I agree. Tactics which take advantage of kinks in AI programming (many of which come about just by the very nature of having a computer doing the thinking, ie going through IF...THEN routines instead of creative situation assesment) are definantly cheese. You listed a number of them.

I would also add to this "Strategic cheese". If tactics are things you do in a battle, then we could call strategy things you do on the overall. I know this is a bad use of the word, but work with me here.

Essentially this is doing things that, logically, if this weren't a computer game, you would not do. For example. Talking to Firkaag, telling him you will come back for him, then resting in front of him. I mean seriously, come on folks. Is that in the least bit reasonable? Or resting in the insane Asylum. Bodhi's hunting you! Irenicus is about to escape with your soul! And you are taking a nap?

I saw a post yesterday where someone said they took some hundred odd days to finish the game. I just finished SoA last night in 42 days. Thats doing every quest (with exception to NPC and Stronghold quests that I didnt have access too) including even the itty bitty ones like the Mimic blood for the wizard, the guy buried alive (and the resulting pantaloons), etc. Now this is not bragging for anyone making that assumption. What I did was not in the least bit incredible. The ultimate point is I did the quests with a sense of urgency. I wasn't even trying to finish it as quickly as possible, the only thing I did was go through dungeouns without sleep. Hell I wasted 3 days waiting for my thieves to return from their missions.

And of course, even if you don't have anything "urgent" to do nessecarily, such as Nalia's keep (which supposedly you are going to save her dad, but hey everyone figured he was dead going in anyways), it is still illogical to rest there. I mean, what? Just because you cleared out the Trolls on the first level all of the other Trolls are going to stay exactly where they are?

Anyways I am digressing here. There are many other examples. Pickpocketing the Cowled Wizard when you met him for the Ring of the Ram, so when you kill him you get 2. Come on guys, he doesn't have 2 rings of the ram, only one. Thats a bug and total cheese. If you just want more rings of the ram, just Shadowkeeper them in and stop trying to convince the rest of us that its a "strategy".

So anyways, yes, what you said is cheese, along with other things.

But as to Kangaax being a "tactics" puzzle...well...he isn't. Or at least I don't think of him as such. The problem is that he has ONE attack. Imprisonment. Its an insta-kill (yes I know if you have one person survvie you can free them but if you aren't defending against imprisonment against Kangaax, one person won't survive to free them). Which means there is little to figure out.

You fight him once. He imprisons your whole party. What do you do? Change your tactics? Maybe I should use enchant? No. You either a) defend against imprisonment or b) die

b) is boring, and a) well since that is his only attack, he becomes a joke. Some stupid little bobblehead doll in the corner. I am not sure how there can be "superior" methods to your method. You protect against imprisonment and its the same result. You dont, and you die.

Not ALL single monster battles suck. Draconis is a superior battle. Largely though because he is given mobility (unlike all of the other dungeoun locked dragons) and so he is wildly different to fight then any other monster in the game. This makes him refreshing and original. Plus there is nothing to "figure out" so much. He is just big and brawny. No insta-kill ability that you have to "solve" and therefore cause him to lose all potency.

Now a last a final point about this comment that I see many people (though not you iamweaver) make
"If you don't like it don't do it"

Well I assure you, I most certainly do NOT do things I do not like. I suspect most others don't as well. What baffles me is why I should not SAY I don't like it. I am not insulting the mod makers by saying I dislike something. No one likes everything, no one even likes the same stuff generally. My opinion is certainly valid in my own eyes, and I express it in the hopes that it finds some validity in other peoples eyes. These mod makers do give their time and effort to make free modifications for the community as a whole. I appreciate that. No one wants to see them produce good fun mods which extend the replayability of this game more then me. So much so that I will continue to voice my opinion in the hopes that it helps them produce better mods. Not that I am expecting them to listen to me. But I am certain other people feel at least similiar to myself. And if none of us say anything, we might not get anything. But if we respond constructively, and I think I have been constructive, then these mod makers, who do want positive response from the community as a whole, may find that we have decent ideas worthy of a look.

To be honest, it is frustrating to constantly have opinions swated away with "well then just don't do it" "well don't use it" "well no one is forcing you too" etc. I think constructive comments ALWAYS have validity regardless of what they say. Someone saying an attribute is "cheesy" isn't a harshy indictment on the mod maker so much as its an expression of "hey some of us don't like this ability. For all future mod makers consider not adding it". I mean some of these people have really good idea's and are really skilled at this sort of thing. I can't just make my own mod, I am not nearly as talented as they are. I understand I am at their mercy and terribly indebted to them, but that is precisely way I voice an opinion on my wants, what I like, what I don't. Once again, it isn't that I expect them to listen to me personnally, so much as they may listen to the idea, particularly if it is voiced by more then one person.

Anyways, I am beginning to ramble so ; )

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Well,

I'm not a good adept of magery. I prefer the hack and slash style. And that is nice, cause when I do use cheese either I'm soloing or facing someone incredibly powerfull, like improved Johnie on Tactics, Ascencion or Redeption mods.

Try this:

Enter Imp Torgal room with your party and try to hack them melee. You are smashed in no time. Now try it wit buffs. You are smashed in a slight bigger time. The extra power they have forces you to cheese, using ubber magics and traps and tactics that will prevent you from losing. I'm not a very good magic user, as I said,but I try to keep most battles uncheesiest as possible.

The exception is when you try to solo the game. Take a FMT and try to not cheese. Yer dead in no time, before finishing Johnie dungeon.

To cheese is to be a lawyer, and to use the sistem in your favour, IMO. It is funny, but it is not cool as the thrill of having a party and trying other things and dying and having to reload...[/QUOTE]


This is precisely my problem with most mods. They assume cheese, I suppose because they are afraid of the inevitable "Oh that battle was a cinch!" comments from those who use cheese themselves. Therefore they have the enemies use cheese. And, as I said, it soon becomes a battle of who has the stinkier cheese. So I won't install those mods. I don't like them. I have tried them, and even beat them, and disliked the style of play I was forced into using. Now in this case cheese isn't so much loopholes in AI and programming (though that is included) as it is unreal anticipation. You prepare for a battle you supposedly should not be able to prepare for. You rest in areas it is illogical to rest in. You do illogical things to prepare for a battle.

In regards to Tashia's pet, what started this all, I think many other mods are designed with these "cheese" mods in mind. The characters have to be able to handle it, this means "cheese abilities" to fight the cheese with (holy crap this post has a lot of cheese in it).

Of course many people obviously like this. And who am I to suggest someones likes are somehow worse then mine? If you like it, you like it. I am merely trying to tell mod makers that hey, some of us want the cheese cut out you know? And in the process I hope other people say the same thing, so that they see there is a sizable part of the community out there that is looking more for originality, novelty, and creativity in battles, not just sheer "uberness"

[QUOTE=GNGSpam]This is precisely my problem with most mods. They assume cheese...

Of course many people obviously like this. And who am I to suggest someones likes are somehow worse then mine? If you like it, you like it. I am merely trying to tell mod makers that hey, some of us want the cheese cut out you know? And in the process I hope other people say the same thing, so that they see there is a sizable part of the community out there that is looking more for originality, novelty, and creativity in battles, not just sheer "uberness"[/QUOTE]

Well, GNG, think about this: Some people dislike dying and reloading on the normal game and invented cheese. Other people missed to die, and invented tactics. UserUnfriendly, for example, knows 95% of the possible cheeses and forgot the 5% remaining cause SoA is an old game.

Notice that I'm not defending the cheesers... Nor atacking the non cheese modes.

But Tactics, Ascension and all the mods make SoA a very enjoyable game, and kept me playing it even though I had bought NWN.

I mean, sheer Uberness??? Why, then, when you meet Irenicus he is really a ubber mage, and when you fight him he is a dead monkey with a single shapeshift hability? Why his sister Bodhi is so charmless??? Why Celestial Fury is such a weak weapon if its name means Fury from the heavens??? I wanted to combat the uberness of Jon Irenicus, the shattered one. Not some home made toy as he is on the original game.

So, Tactics and the mods make the game more realistic, IMO, but sometimes just so hard and so cheese demanding to play that the fun is over.

Btw, have you battled Jon and Imp Sendai? They are cool... even though cheesy

It's interesting to read about how others approach this question. It's also interesting that there is so much scope for different styles of play within the one game.

To my mind, the less cheese the more I enjoy the game. And cheese, to me, means anything which takes advantage of knowledge that the character wouldn't have. What's the point of the game if you don't figure it out for yourself?

GnGSpam, it's an interesting subject for a discussion. The only thing I changed was the specific mentoin of "re: Dragonwench" in the title, since that's unnecessary. Let's keep it focused on BG2, though. It fits well, here, in any case.

[QUOTE=boo's daddy]It's interesting to read about how others approach this question. It's also interesting that there is so much scope for different styles of play within the one game.

To my mind, the less cheese the more I enjoy the game. And cheese, to me, means anything which takes advantage of knowledge that the character wouldn't have. What's the point of the game if you don't figure it out for yourself?[/QUOTE]


course, there's an awful lot of pure fun figuring cheeses out...

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Well, GNG, think about this: Some people dislike dying and reloading on the normal game and invented cheese. Other people missed to die, and invented tactics. UserUnfriendly, for example, knows 95% of the possible cheeses and forgot the 5% remaining cause SoA is an old game.

Notice that I'm not defending the cheesers... Nor atacking the non cheese modes.

But Tactics, Ascension and all the mods make SoA a very enjoyable game, and kept me playing it even though I had bought NWN.

I mean, sheer Uberness??? Why, then, when you meet Irenicus he is really a ubber mage, and when you fight him he is a dead monkey with a single shapeshift hability? Why his sister Bodhi is so charmless??? Why Celestial Fury is such a weak weapon if its name means Fury from the heavens??? I wanted to combat the uberness of Jon Irenicus, the shattered one. Not some home made toy as he is on the original game.

So, Tactics and the mods make the game more realistic, IMO, but sometimes just so hard and so cheese demanding to play that the fun is over.

Btw, have you battled Jon and Imp Sendai? They are cool... even though cheesy [/QUOTE]

Well please understand, I am not attacking cheesers or even criticizing them. They all paid their money for this game and are certainly welcome to use it however they can to have fun with it. Thats it's purpose afterall. I am certainly not purporting how I play to somehow be some superior method thats a paragon of virtue.

For example. I pause a lot in battles. I mean a ridiculous amount. I micro-manage EVERYTHING. I very seriouslly pause more then the "turned-based auto-pause" feature BG2 has. This is just how I enjoy it. I like the tactical feel of the game. There are some people whoever who invest considerable time in developing scripts for their characters. They equip them with these scripts and then turn on the AI (which I never ever ever have on) and let them go about their business.

That is actually better "roleplaying" and probably more in-line with how the game was intended to be played then my way. Afterall you are really only "one" person. The other characters should do what they want. If Minsc does something stupid, hey its because minsc is stupid, just the chances you take. Orders are given sparingly, like if you were to yell them out in the middle of battle, and how the other NPCs which are, supposedly "NON-player", go about doing those things is left up to their personnality "script".

So I certainly am not trying to suggest my way is the "pure" way.

But I have played many of these mods (though not the two you mentioned I believe) and the assumption seems to be that I will use cheese, which I don't. Then I am forced to use cheese to win, and I just don't have fun. I end up going back to un-modified SoA.

The sole purpose of this thread was to define "cheese" as a group and see if anyone, like me, doesn't really like it, possibly influence some talented mod'er to devout some time to "non-cheese" mods. I think many people would greatly appreciate it. I know I would.

Why do we all need to have the same definitions and ideas about cheese? Yes, there are some monster's whos difficulty is reduced to a laughable level once you have the correct tactic.
Yes, there are some mods that assume that you will use EVERY possible advantage that the modders can possibly think of in order to win.
Yes, there are spells combinations and items that are very very cheap toward most mobs.
IF you think that anything that has been posted is cheese, IF something comes up in the game that you think is cheese, then all you have to do is NOT do it.
There is NO way that you can make everyone agree what the exact definition of "cheese" is. It's just not going to happen
So the ONLY thing you have to do is define cheese to yourself and
Avoid it, don't use it, etc.
Change the game yourself to a state that YOU think is fair
Create a post that states "This is my definition of cheese, I would like to eliminate it from my copy of BG2, please oh please help me/teach me the methods to mod this game/mod this game for me" and wait for people to answer your plea.
The innuendo that is cropping up in this thread seem fairly critical, even bordering on the point of insulting, (my post probably is as well, and I apologize as a hypocrite) so maybe we should try to figure out a way to make BG2 more enjoyable based on our personal tastes rather than start a p**sing contest? Cause it's starting to look like that's where we're headed.

The reason why coming up with some common definition is useful, Ekental, is because effective communication requires that we understand each other. If I read in someone's post "This is a cheese encounter", I am just trying to figure out what it means; in general the definition seemed to be as I first posted. Your post seems to be using a common mistake, confusing the denotation of a word with its connotation. Most of us do this at some point or another...

I only care because I plan to fully run through SoA/ToB only one time, so I wanted to play the game "straight" and was hoping that cheese meant what I posted, so that I can avoid those things, is all. If I were replaying solo, say, or just wanted to tinker around with the game mechanics to see where they go (as UU seems to do), then I would probably *want* to look at the "cheese" encounters.

essentially (from the roleplaying purist's PoV), if you as a player do something that requires knowledge the character does not have, you're cheesing.

For example: abusing the game engine and AI so you kill firkraag with a cloudkill or with god knows how many traps.

If you're in the last level of watcher's keep and you've unlocked two seals already and had to fight two groups of guards, it's safe to assume the final seal with release some pretty powerful guards. so you buff to the max, maybe set some traps and then unlock. to me, that's not cheese.

but honestly, anyone who criticises the way other people play needs to sort their priorities.

Gotcha, Thrain. Though the point is *not* to criticize; there are times when a player is not trying to role-play, and that's fine, too. I just want to get a definition of the word, not place "moral values" on it (that's the whole "denotation vs. connotation" sidetrack earlier).

[QUOTE=Thrain]
For example: abusing the game engine and AI so you kill firkraag with a cloudkill or with god knows how many traps.

[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, I'd say placing traps outside Firkraag's line of sight and then luring him there is not cheesy. If you can't do that, what non-cheesy use is there for traps?

by outside his line of sight i presume you mean when he gets lost in the fog of war. i guess that's not cheesy. but there are plenty of opportunities where you are well informed of a battle. for example, the fight with irenicus at the tree of life, in hell, the fights with mellisan, kangaxx (if you detect evil beforehand)

Spoilerish...

Oh. Fight with Mellisan. Umm - guess that Gromnir ain't so crazy after all. Oh well - if I spent more time playing and less reading the forums, I guess that I wouldn't find out these things, hehe.