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Seriously, why do they even have good thieves?? I mean comeon, how would a guy who goes around cutting purses be considered good? Well this isnt my question, just a thought. ANYWAY heres my question:
Does an evil character like I'm making have any affect on what NPC's will stay in my party? I plan on keeping a rep of 10-14 just to keep people happy but in my book, a good thief is impossible, especially an Assassin (which I'm making). Any input would be appreciated.

err... Actually wasn't Robin Hood technically a good thief? Steal from the rich, run like hell... or wait, no that was steal from the rich, give to the poor nm.
But yeah, you could think of assasination as a great public service... Simply assasinate the "bad guys" which include people like Irenicus, Bodhi, just about half the entire Amnish population. Seriously though, that's what a "good" thief is. A good assasin would simply be someone who kills people for the greater good. (Though I dunno who makes those judgement calls)
Anyway, your alignment has some effects, say for xmple the Demon's heart quest in watchers keep (You cannot do it unless your alignment is evil)
I don't recall anyone not joining my party or leaving because I was evil though, I remember picking up Valygar without a hitch

Just because someone's class is titled "Thief" doesn't mean the person has to steal or cut throats.


As Thieves are the only people in the D&D world who can open locks, a locksmith would have to be a thief, as would anything relating to a modern day police officer or investigator.

Even in the 1st edition AD&D, I disagreed with the rule that a thief couldn't be lawful good.

Look at most of the kender race from the Dragonlance world. They have the thief class, but consider themselves "handlers" and don't do malicious things.

Yes, but by everyon else they were considered THIEVES, or just incredibly annoying, often times both
Though to point out in AD&D there are the common "expert classes" that describe the classes of various townspeople if you have the DM's guide (for those who want to incorporate that into their campaign) and the "expert classes" include the blacksmith, tailor, etc.
Thieves in D&D (Changed to rogue in 3rd ed. cause it sounded more benevolent) I thought were actually thieves. I just judged alignment based on what they did with their money
Did they:
iff they Give it to the friar tuck and the poor church mouse then they are GOOD
iff they Keep it and steal more stuff (from little children, blind beggers, cute woodland animals) then they are EVIL

heh before i even read the second post Robin Hood came to my mind...

the whole good versus evil thing is messed up. a guy can be perfectly cheritable and nice and freindly and all, but not care if he kills someone who he thinks deserves to die. just like good people such as paladins can be just as mean/arrogent/bloodthristy as any evil person. there really is no "Good" and "Evil". it is merely higher standards of morals. an evil thief cud use his skills to be a vigilante and kill twisted cops or enjoy killing nobleman because of their cruelty to others. just because you are evil does not mean you dont have a heart, and just because you are good doesnt mean you do.

I think the D&D terminology is confusing on some issues.

A thief is someone is steals. A Thief (note the capital) is just a stealthy person who's good with locks and traps. What they use those skills for determines whether they're Good or Evil.

And as for the alignment system, a 'Good' person is someone who puts the group or community first. An 'Evil' person is someone who puts themselves first. It really has nothing to do with what we consider Good and Evil.

(Oh - and in case it's not obvious from the above - no I don't think a Thief has to be Evil )

[QUOTE=Ekental]err... Actually wasn't Robin Hood technically a good thief? Steal from the rich, run like hell... or wait, no that was steal from the rich, give to the poor nm.[/QUOTE]
Since when is it Robin's place to steal from the king and give to the poor? I mean comeon, it's not like the king stole the money, he just raised taxes... Not like thats against the law or anything. That's what a king is supposed to do to hire guards, build roads, bridges, and protect his people. Granted King John was a tyrant, but who cares? He is the rightful king since his brother was captured and there was no heir apparent. Even if he did organize the capture, he didn't do the actual crime. So stealing from him should be punishable by death and not considered good.

By D&D definitions, I would consider King John to be Lawful Evil, and Robin Hood to be Chaotic Good.

Actually, if you read the descriptions, it gives an "iron fisted tyrant" as an example of a Lawful Evil character - sounds like King John to me!

[QUOTE=glenfar]By D&D definitions, I would consider King John to be Lawful Evil, and Robin Hood to be Chaotic Good.

Actually, if you read the descriptions, it gives an "iron fisted tyrant" as an example of a Lawful Evil character - sounds like King John to me![/QUOTE]
True... I must contemplate this.

[QUOTE=FireLighter]Since when is it Robin's place to steal from the king and give to the poor? I mean comeon, it's not like the king stole the money, he just raised taxes... Not like thats against the law or anything. That's what a king is supposed to do to hire guards, build roads, bridges, and protect his people. Granted King John was a tyrant, but who cares? He is the rightful king since his brother was captured and there was no heir apparent. Even if he did organize the capture, he didn't do the actual crime. So stealing from him should be punishable by death and not considered good.[/QUOTE]
Rightful king or not he's a Tyrant, and likely Lawful Evil.

Robin is the opposite, the nemesis of the tyrant, and in D&D that would make him Chaotic Good and the sworn enemy of the king.

What's interesting is, IMO, what happens when the tyrant is disposed of. Does Robin change to Neutral Good now that things are right and his enemy is gone or does he become a Lawful Good enforcer of the new system ??

IMO there can be no doubt that he is good, no matter what. And IMO Evil is Evil, an Evil Pc should roleplay cruelty, haughtiness and badass selfishness.

One need to differ between stupid evil and intelligent, wise evil. A C.Evil with Int of 5 is more Chaotic, and a C.Evil with Int 18 is close to pure evil. (i rate N.Evil Pc's & Npc's with age and high INT,CHA & WIS scores as 'pure' Evil chars.

The original D&D (20 years back) didn't include evil or good. There were 3 alignments : Chaotic - Bad, Neutral - Indifferent, & Lawful - Good.

Imagine a Paladin Order (Lawful Good) declearing war on a Lawful Good Clerical order of a differnet faith...Who's evil then ??? This happens daily in real life, good peaple kill good people for small reasons (some might say)
Christians vs. protestants, Iraqi vs Irani and so on...Soldiers are only normal people, and most people want to live a good life providing for their children & planning their future.

In RPG's and CRPG's it's all about feel. In BG2 you can do most quests the 'Evil' way even if you have Paladins & Rangers in the Group, even Minsc won't leave you unless your rep. is REALLY low, and vice versa, Evil dudes can do good thinghs in Crgp's.

In Real Life, or with a good DM, that's not very likely. Chose evil - be evil , to the core, or else chose or forcechange alignment to neutral.

I didn't mean to get to political and hope that no one takes offense from this reply but EVIL is mean,cruel naughtiness and GOOD is nice,respectful righteouness IMO

I was grippen and didn't manage to read all of the above posts.

Sorry for any Duplicants, but i too think John Lawful Evil & Robin Chaotic Good..

Perhaps a Good Thief believes in human rights but simply doesn't believe in property rights. Sort of like, "I would never harm you, but your wallet is fair game." A Good Thief would not steal anything whose loss would threaten the health or well-being of its former owner. But why not steal a trinket from a fat merchant who doesn't really need it? It's only money, and he'll be alright.

[QUOTE=FireLighter]comeon, it's not like the king stole the money, he just raised taxes... Not like thats against the law or anything...[/QUOTE]
Lawful or not, that still sounds pretty Evil to me.

I hate you guys, now you got me thinking about war, soldiers, vengeful gods, and playing a game like real life...







Gotta love these forums
Who am I kiddin' I love you guys

GRR looks like i gotta edit my alignment with SK

The old D&D Campaign had in it's Thyatis/Alphatia Gazeteer a Build for a Non-Thief Thief. He could be Lawful ( i.e. Good), but didn't have backstab and pickpocket skills. IOW he was a 'Stealth' Charachter, sneaking around and opening locks and disarming traps for the 'Good' cause.

Also, in the Forgotten Realms Setting you have a nice Prestige Class, the Divine Seeker, which is sort of a holy/unholy thief. Even the most righteous order or the most vile, tyrannical highpriest need the skills of a master locksmith sometimes.

The Rouge is blessed with spells, healing and escape from law-enforcers as long as he is in good standing with his chosen church, and aids the 'cause'

In this view, off course Rouges should be able to choose all Alignments, even Lawful Good. It may be to late to chage this in BG2, but ver. 3.0/3.5 D&D let's a Rouge choose any alignment.

the thing with the king in Robin Hood....

just because he was born to a different family does not give him the right to rule over others, if i were Robin Hood i would have killed him instead of just merely steal from him.

evil does not have to be mean bad nasty, just not care for the lives of certain people. my assassin does all things good and likes to help others, but he kills nobles with a passion because of their cruelty to others. he is otherwise a good person, but he enjoys killing which makes him technically evil. like i said in other post, the good and evil thing is mest up and misleading.

A thief is someone is steals. A Thief (note the capital) is just a stealthy person who's good with locks and traps. What they use those skills for determines whether they're Good or Evil.

I agree. It's the character background you keep in your mind that determines their actions, and character class has nothing to do specificially with alignment. Let me quote something I wrote long ago about thieves in a very different game, when a player insisted there was only one kind of thief possible. It defines twelve different thief styles:

1)The locksmith, dedicated solely to refining their abilities at lockpicking and the sale of these skills to others.

2) A former military officer, fallen on hard times, who takes odd jobs, brags up their past, and isn't above pickpocketing or shoplifting to make ends meet.

3) A scion of a thiefly family. My parents and grandparents were thieves, and this is a tradition. I always follow tradition, and get my best tips from momma and poppa.

4) A second story thief, the archtypal cat burglar. Stalks in the shadows, picks, shoplifts, never attacks another inhabitant; always melts away when discovered.

5) A bland, bluff, goodhearted burgher, solid, slow and heavy. Except for their fingers, which are incredibly light.

6) Mr or Ms Absolutely Average. You know the statue in the guild whose image you can't recall even after you've seen it? This person couldn't be singled out of a crowd anywhere. They'd be first in line yelling for the constable if their own pockets were picked, too. Alone or with friends, of course, it's another matter, and the average impression fades.

7) A member of some minor nobility-- possibly a third son, or a daughter who didn't want to be married off to an earl 4 times her age-- who revolted, left the fold, and is seeking methods of financial improvement to relaunch their career.

8) A swashbuckling piratical type, loud, helpful, extrovert, cynical but friendly.

9) A moody loner who views society, even thiefly society, as a minor irritant. Uses thief skills as a self-demonstration of his/her superiority over the rest of the world.

10) A sentient jackdaw of a thief. A person who loves "pretty things" and seeks to gather them all to look at without any regard to worth (plats? bronze? they all shine so nicely) or individual ownership.

11) A tormented individual who absolutely must regain some very valuable family or cultural possessions, now in the hands of traveling (ie, GM-run) merchants. This person will pickpocket or shoplift to acquire enough coins for their purpose, but carefully-- they can't risk fines.

12) A helpful, goodnatured individual who has a serious personality flaw: they can't keep their hands out of other people's pockets.

As far as an assassin is concerned, Firelighter, consider their motivation and targets. Even in modern times, there have been assassins who only go after known criminals of a certain stripe--for example, there's an assassin I interviewed once, who concentrated on tracking down and eliminating Nazi war criminals that "escaped" from Allied custody. Yet another I'm aware of, now, is engaged in using his skills to take revenge on the creators of the horrific genocide in Rwanda and Burundi, a decade ago. They take money for expenses. Are they evil? Well... Are they good? Well... There are too many gray areas that explode the whole good/neutral/evil and lawful/neutral/chaos nonsense generated by Gygax back in the 70s.

That's not to say you're forbidden from creating an evil assassin. But the possibilities are there to create complex characters that lie outside the obvious stereotypes. Just my two cents.

err... Actually wasn't Robin Hood technically a good thief? Steal from the rich, run like hell... or wait, no that was steal from the rich, give to the poor nm.

For the record: in reallife, they've traced back the original legends of Robin Hood to within 50 years or so of the actual character--or to about 1250 ACE. The term "robinhood" was used routinely on the Domesday Books of England (the period's equivalent of a census, in one sense of the word) to record a thief, brigand, bandit. It was a generic term, and a single word. Mulligan stole Glenfar's car, so he's a robinhood. Fable sold land he didn't own to Firelighter, so he's a robinhood.

The tales were limited and few in number, though they began to gather other legends into themselves--figures from tales that were briefly popular, but died out. The Maid Marion material was part of a form of general entertainment known as a pastoral, and became firmly anchored in the Robin Hood legend around 1600 or so. The Friar Tuck material came in much earlier, during the 14th century. The original, very real Friar Tuck was a renegade monk who gathered a small group of bandits, took over a small, abandoned fort, and issued forth to kill people that passed by and wouldn't pay his "road tax." The "rob from the rich, give to the poor" element of the Robin Hood cycle didn't really get added until the 19th century, when Britain was middleclass, prosperous, and cutting back the powers of its own monarch.

Personally, I was very fond of Lionheart Studio's Robin of the Hood series back in the 1980s. That's as much from religious conviction as anything else, but I recognize it's all fabrication. Or was. Robin Hood may have begun as a petty thief of no importance, but over nearly a thousand years, he's grown to become Hern the Hunter's son--and if that isn't job progression, I don't know what is.

Aye, n like most descriptions of theives you see...

"No 2 rogues are alike"

they are ALL different, and cannot be labled as one.