Are the Demi-Humans worth it?

FireN.Brimstone · Post by **FireN.Brimstone** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:53 pm

Are the races that have level penalties put upon them worth it? Things like Theiflying (sp) Asimar, and Drow.

Are bards wroth the effort, I see a lot of instruments with some pretty powerful effects, and there songs don't actually seem as useless as they used to be (especially at higher levels). They have a few spell, which can be helpful, but...they're bards. Is it useful to take Bard for maybe just a few levels, to use instruments, or maybe take them to level 11, to get the best songs, and switch to something else? Also how do the songs work, is it like BG where you just switched them on and as long as you didn't tell them to do anything else the song was in effect or does it work more like a spell this time.

Also are the Drow/Dugar light fire penalties very damaging, I'm considering making one, but the whole no sunlight + no fire + -2 levels really puts me off. Thanks for your help.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:56 pm

Well Bards are realy nice chars.. Or atleast i like Bards.. With bard songs i would recomend Lingerine song feat. With this you can start to sing and stop it while the song lasts extra 2 rounds. So you can get bonusses from all songs.

When playing with bard i wouldn't recemond full bard becuse even with higher levels It realy isn't worth it. I admit that Wail of Banshee is good spell but it takes too long to get. So it would be lot better to give rogue and fighter levels to bard. SO you would have sneak attacking bard. For weapons some might disagree but give him/her 2-handed weapon, spears are nice.

Bard spells are nice but still missing some of those better spells. With bard i would recomend to avoid Healing spells becuse those are realy pointless.. those might look nice for start but in the end you dont think same way. So pick mirror image, boost spells and ofcourse shadow spells.

If you do this you will have nice support char who will dish some damage in melee and has good summons and can be also cleric with enough high USE MAGIC ITEM skil..

So bards are realy worth trying..

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:01 am

ELC races are worth it. When creating new character those ablity bonusses can be realy usefull. So you could have 20 wisdom in the start with Aasimar or you could boost lower abilitys. I know they level up slower but since all races will get to level 30 if you play that long. It is nothing more than personal taste. And in this matter you should try those things too.

Vanion · Post by **Vanion** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:55 am

It's worth looking over a race's bonuses before making a decision. ECL races allow you, like egg said, to make some very specialised characters. Stilll, the humble shield dwarf gets +2 to all saving throws and +2 to con, making them the undisputed best tank in the game and progresses in that capacity faster than anyone else, so make sure you have a clear idea of what you're doing with a subrace before you use it, otherwise you'll be taking that XP penalty for nothing.

ECL races really shine in smaller parties with 3-4 members, since their slower progression is made up for by the abundance of XP.

Another thing you should consider are statistics. That Aasimar's +2 to Wisdom and Charisma equals an extra 4 points to your stat pool...you're effectively given 20 points to spend instead of 16. The tiefling gets 18, the drow gets 22, etc. So looking at the benefits that way, there is a hell of a lot to be said for using an ECL race, especially in a spellcaster position.

The last thing is their miscellaneous bonuses. Spell resistances and immunites are an excellent feature, but you have to work out whether it would be worth the cost in how you build your party.

Egg makes an excellent point about how Single Classed bards are underpowered. Unfortunately, the benefits they get to their music in particular does not increase after the mid levels, and their rate of progression to 8th level spells is agonisingly slow. A bard/warrior multiclass can be rather effective, and bard/rogue is a real surprise package in terms of effectiveness and versatility. Depending on how you balance your character, they'll probably end up being one of the best in a support/scout role.

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:32 pm

I opted for the following party:

Human Barbarian
Human Fighter
Human Bard
Asamair Cleric (Tempus)
Wild Elf Sorceror
Tiefling Wizard/Rogue

Bards are very worth it in my opinion. They are a great all rounder, not as good at face to face melee as fighter types, not as destructive as Sorcerors, but a great balance between the two. They make great archers and casters, they have the disabling capabilities of spells like Horror, Hold Person, Emotion: Fear, Slow, Sleep, Confusion and Grease all at reasonably low levels. When they gain Great Shout and imporved Invis, they become pretty good fighters. Mirror image first, then dual wield into melee and next round Great shout your opponent for a guaranteed 1 round stun so you get a full rounds free attacks at them. You really need to decide on a path for your Bard pretty early. I'd probably suggest 16-18 levels of bard to get your spell casting boosted and have plenty of level 2, 4 and 6 spell slots. The remaining levels can be usefuly distributed between Rogue, Fighter and even Sorceror, though I recomment Fighter and Rogue.

As for demihumans? Asamair is a good choice for the bonus attribute points, 4 extra points makes a big difference, but limits you to a single class or a level for level multiclass. It's still a good choice though. Tiefling has a more useful favoured class - Rogue. everyone can benefit from a few Rogue levels. The elemental resistances are pretty handy too, a spell casting Asam/Tief. can use the elemental mastery feats to get a good resistance to most damage types, and at lower levels a 5 point resistance to damage can be a life saver.

Wild Elf for Sorcerors is also no a bad choice. It gives you access to Bows and Swords without having to spend a level on Rogue or Fighter to get them. Also the Dex. bonus means both a better AC and makes you a better Archer when you don't want to cast or when you're out of spells.

Vanion · Post by **Vanion** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:36 pm

My own party was pretty similar (after I experimented with a couple of parties, then came up with one I liked)...

Shield Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian
Aasimar Paladin/Cleric (of Lathander...took 2 paladin levels, then the rest in cleric)
Human Cleric of Tempus
Moon Elf Rogue/Illusionist
Human Sorceror
Wild Elf sorceror

Two sorcerors came into their own really quickly...being able to double up on sleep, fireball and crowd control effects was very fun. The wild elf used bows effectively and specialised in enchantment, while the human worked on evocation especially.

The Aasimar was really needed for a paladin because of the amount of statistics you need to work on to be effective (Basically everything except intelligence, and you need reasonable dexterity).

Basically, the way these guys worked was with 3 concentrated melee characters and 3 archer/bombardiers. Pretty simple, really, crowd control, toe-to-toe smackdown and area effects were the order of the day. Dropping three simultaneous chain lightning spells on your foes is just fun

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:01 am

With my new party.. i am in horde fortress now(HoF)..

My party...

Barbarian 20/wizard 1
Cleric (oghma) 21
Bard 16/ rogue 1/fighter 4
Sorcerer 20/fighter 1

On normal this party was realy good.. dragon didn't have even chance nor did Xvim.. But brother and sister were dificult.. Isaer constantly casting Disintegrate.. made thing tough.. killed them on third try.. Those people who will fight with you after claiming cera sumat..well they were also suprisingly easy too..

winter sorrow · Post by **winter sorrow** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:52 am

why 1 level of wizard for the barbarian? just to cast from scrolls?

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:01 am

I am in HoF right now.. so i will level up.. see all those are at level 21.. not at level 30

winter sorrow · Post by **winter sorrow** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:32 am

ok. yes, saw that the levels were set at 21.

But still don't understand why you took one level of wizard for normal mode, unless (and it just occurred to me) your barb has only just started the road to wizardry.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:37 am

He was full barb in Normal.. and yes he started his so called ''road to wizardry'' to get 2 spells ''Grease'' and ''Mirror Image''

FireN.Brimstone · Post by **FireN.Brimstone** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:02 pm

Well the party I ended up going with was this:

Wild elf Monk/Sorcerer (Mainly monk with a level of sorcerer thrown in for armor/shield, may take more levels once I reach 20 for monk, basic second tier tank) Funny store, forgot to giver her at least 11 char, so I wont be switching her to sorcerer till level 4
Shield Dwarf Fighter (The armor Class tank, little dex, lots of con and strength, meant to wear heavy armor and use a BIG shield)
Half-Orc Barbarian (The Damage Dealing tank, meant to wear medium armor wild a two handed sword, 20 strength and eventual Max damage feat, probably, meant to deal lots of damage really quick)
Human Druid/Barbarian (switch to Barbarian for a level or two to gain the class specifics to help out when you switch to an animal, basic second tier tank)
Halfling rouge/ranger (1 level of ranger for ambidexterity, might take more once I feel there's nothing more to do with rouge, mainly used for Long Range, but also can be invaluable as a scout/sneak attacker)
Human Sorcerer (kill things with spells, need I say more?)

Vanion · Post by **Vanion** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:24 am

Bear in mind that for your barbarian, you'll need 4 fighter levels in order to access the maximised attacks feat, and take cross class ranks in Concentration. You need SPECIALISATION in two weapons, not just focus.

What works really well for any kind of dedicated tank, whether dwarf, half-orc, half-elf or human is to structure your early levels this way

1) Barbarian1: Weapon Focus
2) Fighter1: Weapon focus
3) Barbarian2: Any feat
4) Fighter2: Any feat
5) Fighter3:
6) Figher4: Weapon Specialisation x2
7) Barbarian3:
8) Barbarian4: Rage x2
9) Barbarian5: Maximised Attacks.

If you play a human, you can get maximised attacks at level 6 with that build, same as if you play a straight out fighter. The ability to rage early on though, is usually way more devastating than anything else you can do.

For your other feats, dodge, two weapon feats, power attack or cleave are all good choices, or even Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword.

In any case, the best damage dealer in pure melee terms will always be a Fighter4/Barbarian X...once you get Greater Rage and Maximised attacks, you're walking death.

FireN.Brimstone · Post by **FireN.Brimstone** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:50 pm

[QUOTE=Vanion]Bear in mind that for your barbarian, you'll need 4 fighter levels in order to access the maximised attacks feat, and take cross class ranks in Concentration. You need SPECIALISATION in two weapons, not just focus.[/QUOTE]

Really the description of the feat both in the game and on this site said that all you need was weapon specialization in two weapons (was already planning that with axe and great sword so I can just use the most powerful 2 handed weapon I had) and 4 ranks in concentration, how are you supposed to know you need 4 levels in Fighter?

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:28 pm

I took a similar path with my barbarian in HoF. I got him to level 20 Barb. for the huge HP, Tireless Rage, Greater Rage and 4/- damage reduction, then started leveling him in Fighter and Rogue levels for flanking Sneak Attacks, weapon spec. and Max. attacks. I thought about going just barb/Fighter, but decided that the extra feats would be less use than Evasion, sneak attacks and the Use Magic Device skill. He's Barb20/Fighter4/Rogue3 at the moment and has specialisation in Greatswords and Hammers (for Throwing Hammer of Thunder+2, his main missile weapon, great damage with this, 1-4+2 base +6 str, +2 spec, +2 gauntlets of weapon spec. +1-6 elecetric for a total of 5 attacks per round thans to rapid shot each doing 14-22 damage).

I think I'll give him Dwelnars Folly, the greatsword+5 that has brilliant energy so it bypasses all armour and shields. When Hasted to 5 attacks per round with this weapon and Maximised Attacks he'll be doing 12+5+9+2+2=30 damage per hit, more with buffing from Emot: Hope and Recitation and Raging. Mind you I could get a similar effect from giving him Tymora's Band to wear, this would raise his damage range from 20-30 to 26-30. I really need to find the Massive Greataxe of Flame+5 to get the most from Maximised Attacks, but have no idea where to find it!

Has anyone found the Massive Greataxe of Flame?

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:59 pm

Random Loot...

Vanion · Post by **Vanion** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:17 am

[QUOTE=FireN.Brimstone]Really the description of the feat both in the game and on this site said that all you need was weapon specialization in two weapons (was already planning that with axe and great sword so I can just use the most powerful 2 handed weapon I had) and 4 ranks in concentration, how are you supposed to know you need 4 levels in Fighter?[/QUOTE]

I'm sure that it mentions under the fighter's description that it's the only class which gives access to weapon specialisation. Not sure, but it should be there in the manual, though it's hard to spot.

Two pips in a weapon is FOCUS. Three is specialisation. Only the fighter gains access to weapon specialisation, and only from level 4 onward...it should come up in the description when you click on a weapon proficiency feat description at level ups.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:52 am

[QUOTE=Vanion]I'm sure that it mentions under the fighter's description that it's the only class which gives access to weapon specialisation. Not sure, but it should be there in the manual, though it's hard to spot.

Two pips in a weapon is FOCUS. Three is specialisation. Only the fighter gains access to weapon specialisation, and only from level 4 onward...it should come up in the description when you click on a weapon proficiency feat description at level ups.[/QUOTE]

...you need 4 fighter levels for weapon spec. !

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