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SPOILER WARNING: there are spoilers scattered throughout this post.

My wife and I just played through Baldur's Gate I and II with both expansions with what we think is at least close to a "perfect party". I'm looking for suggestions for improvements, and general commentary.

These were the requirements we set forth for the party:

- uses the same characters through both games, from Phlydia to Melissan (so no NPC's -- but some of our characters were loosely based on NPC's)
- can be split into two half-parties that are both OK on their own (since we were playing together, and would sometimes want to split up to do a bunch of small quests quickly)
- powerful in all situations (vs. mages, vs. dragons, vs. melee, vs. mixed groups, whatever.) In other words, we didn't just want a party that would excel against certain fights -- we wanted one that would go through the game and never have a hard time.

We decided we'd need the following characters:

For BG1:
- one decent mage
- one decent cleric
- one decent thief
- as many good archers as possible

For BG2:
- two good mages
- two good clerics
- one decent thief (really, just enough to find traps and open locks, and occasionally pick pockets)
- one good anti-mage
- as many good melee fighters as possible

My wife's half of the party

Akira - Human Fighter (Kensai) / dual to mage at level 9
Stats: str 18/00 dex 18 con 18 int 18 wis 3 cha 3 (party leader in BG2)
Stat changes: str +2 (test of wrath - evil; bonus applied on top of angurvadal), con +2 (test of fear - evil), AC +2 (test of selfishness - evil), wis -1 (dream sequence)
BG1 weapons: Varscona, composite long bow +1
BG1 Armor: plate +3
BG2 weapons: twoweaponing longswords
blade of roses, adjatha, daystar, equalizer, angurvadal, blackrazor, answerer
BG2 Armor: Robe of Vecna, ring of gaxx, ring of human influence, cloak of sewers, belt of inert. barrier, Wong Fei's Ioun stone, speed boots (second pair)

- we all know the reasons for a kensai-mage. Wanted high-level mage more than extra attacks etc. and wanted to finish dualling quickly, so we dualled at 9 instead of 13. She was actually a great tank with all the AC-improving equipment, and with the 2 bonus strength stacked on top of angurvadal, she hit very hard. Timestop + Tenser + Twoweaponing = many dead enemies.

Keldar - Human Paladin (Inquisitor, based on Keldorn)
Stats: str 18/90 dex 18 con 18 int 3 wis 13 cha 17 (party leader in BG1)
Stat changes: cha +1 (manual)
BG1 weapons: spiders bane, composite long bow
BG1 armor: helm of glory, nymph cloak
BG2 weapons: Lilarcor, Carsomyr, wave, Ravager, Ixil's Spike, heartseeker bow
BG2 armor: grandmaster's armor +6 (instead of speed boots), blessed bracers, girdle of fire giant strength

- he was a great tank and a great anti-mage. The high-level dispel ability left all the enemy mages without protections, which meant they'd go down pretty quickly to our melee or our mages. True Sight also makes some of the major battles a lot easier -- if you can actually *hit* Kangaxx or the other liches, they're not so bad.

Aria - Human Cleric / Mage (multi, based on Aerie)
Stats: str 12 dex 18 con 18 int 18 wis 18 cha 3
Stat changes: wis +2 (manuals), wis +1 (lum the mad)
BG1 weapons: Morning Star +1, Quarter Staff +3, sling +3
BG1 armor: robe of good archmagi, ring of wizardry, cloak +2
BG2 weapons: staff +3, staff of the Magi, staff of the Ram, Erinne sling
BG2 armor: bracers AC4, golem manual, amulet of power, hill giant strength, holy symbol

- she wasn't particularly powerful in any way, but she had so many total spells that she complemented the rest of the party very well. She was our only early-game caster, and provided plenty of healing and party buffs, as well as extra offensive power. She also gave us some nice late-game wishes.

My half of the party

Lothar - Dwarvish fighter (Wizard Slayer)
Stats: str 18/00 dex 17 con 19 int 6 wis 7 cha 16
Stat changes: str +1 dex +1 con +1 (manuals), con +1 cha +1 (lum the mad)
BG1 weapons: two handed sword +3, long bow of marksmanship
BG1 armor: girdle of piercing, boots of avoidance, cloak/helm of balduran
BG2 weapons: twoweapon axes and hammers
stonefire, frost reaver, crom faeyr, axe of unyielding, runehammer
BG2 armor: plate of balduran / enkidu's +3, speed boots (first pair), shield of balduran (sometimes), seldarine amulet, big metal unit (for about 30 seconds. Too much cheese for me, but fun to play around with for a little while), helm of brilliance

- He was basically a walking tank all game. High con (20 by the middle of BG1) meant he'd regenerate 40 hitpoints overnight. The best part? "Irenicus: time stop. Irenicus: casting failure." Yeah, that's why we have wizard slayers.

Jahuna - Human Fighter (Berserker) / dual to Cleric at level 6 (based on Jahiera)
Stats: str 18/84 dex 18 con 18 int 10 wis 18 cha 3
Stat changes: int +1 wis +1 (manuals)
BG1 weapons: Morning Star +1
BG1 armor: ring of holiness, large shield +2, helm of defense
BG2 weapons: twoweapon flails / maces
flail of ages, wyvern's tail, Mace of disruption +2, storm star
BG2 armor: red / white dragon scale, vhailor's helm, holy symbol, ring of fire control,
helm of rock (sometimes), dragon shield (sometimes), sensate amulet, stone giant strength

- She was perhaps the most improved in comparison to the NPC she was based on. We always gave her elemental resistance equipment, so she'd quite often be 127% resistant to fire or cold. She also got a ton of proficiencies at the start of BG2 -- 5* in flail, 3* in twoweapon, and 2* in mace in the opening dungeon. She got to be a very, very high level caster by the middle of the game. Being able to spam mass heals in the middle of battle is really useful. High-level holy smites and sunrays are nothing to sneeze at, either. If BG1 was a little longer we'd have held out until level 7 to dual-class her for that extra attack.

Neela - Human Thief (Swashbuckler) / dual to mage at level 7 (based on Nalia)
Stats: str 18 dex 18 con 18 int 18 wis 3 cha 3
Stat changes: str +1, dex +1, int +1 (lum the mad)
BG1 weapons: short sword of backstabbing, eagle bow
BG1 armor: bracers ac6, ring of wizardry
BG2 weapons: staff +3, short sword of backstabbing, sword of mask, gesen bow
BG2 armor: bracers ac3, mercykiller ring, danger sense ring, gloves of pickpocketing (sometimes), circlet of netheril, amulet of master harper, shakti figurine

- She was a competent, but not awesome, thief. She could open every lock and find every trap, and with a potion and the gloves she could pick pockets at 100%. She was our highest level mage all game, and with the shakti figurine she wasn't a bad tank. She was always our weakest melee character, but still finished the game at about 100 hp.


Specific notes

- This party used just about every good weapon at every stage of the game. The only notable exceptions are celestial fury (not worth the proficiencies) and ixil's spike (rarely used behind ravager/carsomyr). One nice thing is that everyone had a good weapon, and it was always obvious who to give a particular weapon to for maximum effectiveness.

- Every single member of this party was at least a competent fighter toward the end of the game. Even Neela and Aria were strong enough that they'd likely be considered "tanks" in many other parties. During the middle of the game, neither of them was as fragile as your average mage.

- We had pretty much every spell we could ever want, and then some. Because of the sheer number of spellcasters, it was rare to run into a situation where we didn't have enough spells. This was especially true of high-level spells, which we reached early (due to using dualclassing instead of multiclassing)

Examples of extreme destruction by the party

- I killed Vongoethe (the demilich) with a vorpal hit, to initiate combat.

- We would often cast 3 or 4 sunrays on packs of vampires, or liches. Because Jahuna's cleric levelled so fast, we had plenty of level 7 spells by the time we took on the Kangaxx quest.

- After casting "chaotic commands" on the party, we could pretty much just melee mind flayers. Keldar would stand back with his bow, but everyone else had enough int to be able to withstand at least one direct hit, and most could hold up to 2 or 3. Flayers aren't very dangerous if they can't charm you and they can't kill you through int drain.

- Irenicus: time stop. Irenicus: casting failure. Need I say more?

- Early-game, we'd hit dragons with 3 lower MR spells and a ton of magic missiles. Late game, we'd pound them with energy discs. At one point, Keldar and Lothar initiated battle with a dragon (in suldenesselar?) and whirlwinded it to death before the mages actually finished casting their "lower MR" spells.

- the monk battle at the end of ToB was pretty easy. We just went straight into melee. A game bug was making it so we couldn't exit the area (the game sometimes mistakes summoned creatures for players, and has trouble switching areas because of it) so we had to reload 3 or 4 times -- and the battle was easy every single time.

- The nasty fight at the bottom of watchers keep required zero reloads and resulted in zero deaths. Proper use of chaotic commands (charm-proofing), the shield of balduran (beholder-proofing), and summons (keep the huntress at melee, and generally distract others) led to a much easier battle than I expected. We did this before even going back to Bodhi's Lair.

... [ran into the 10K character limit] ...

My own suggestions for improvement

- When Neela dualclassed from thief to mage, we were without her thieving skills for a fairly long time. Even though we'd intentionally saved up quite a few non-thief quests, it took a long time and a little bit of flesh-golem farming to get her back. It's pretty hard to operate without a thief through the mid-late portions of BG1. While our cleric could detect traps, it would've been nice to have some way to remove them -- even if it meant waiting until the start of BG2 to dual-class her.

- We could convert the wizard slayer to a wiz slayer / thief in order to get certain useful high-level abilities, such as "use any item". This would also allow us to use various forms of thief cheese on certain tough battles. On the other hand, it means we lose the extreme THAC0 and MR of the wiz slayer.

All right... so, that's my submission for a near-perfect party. Any comments?

Try the Tactics and Improved Battles mod's for more excitement, challenge, etc.

And if I recall correctly, you do not want any "Bioware NPC's"? Just your own multiplayer created characters??

Origional names, heh.

Seems silly to me, just playing the game like that. Losing all NPC interaction. Making it far too easy too.

I like to stick to a nice party that works, as long as I have a thief and a cleric I'm happy.

The intent wasn't to make a "more challenging" game (if I want more challenge, I'll try to match my wife's wishless polymorphless genoless atheist wizard ascension in Nethack -- one of the hardest ways to beat one of the hardest video games ever.)

The intent was to make a single party that would be perfect (or nearly so) for my wife and I to play through the entire BG1/BG2 series end-to-end. I don't particularly miss the NPC interaction, since I have my wife interacting with me all game anyway.

Seems silly to me

*shrug* then don't play like I do.

The point of a perfect party is to show that you understand the game well enough that you can totally dominate it. I happen to think it's fun to do so.

Ok, I just gave you a few suggestions for some increased difficulty. For me, it gives more satisfaction when I beat an improved battle. But like I said; that's me.


As to answer your original question then:

I'll go over your party, character by character, and will suggest a few changes. Whether or not they are improvements, is up to you. Since you have a human cleric-mage multi, I assume you've used ShadowKeeper to edit your characters?

Akira - Human Fighter (Kensai) / dual to mage at level 9
For pure power, I advise you to make a Kensai-Mage multi. That way you get the high level abilities from both classes, the innate abilities from the Kensai and the mage spells, etc. Since you play through the entire game, your wife her character will level up fast enough. In your weapon selection, I did not saw the katana 'Celestial Fury'. I really advice you to take that sword along, because it is one of the most powerful weapons available in the game. Especially in SoA, where you can get it early on, but also still in ToB.
If you are really intend to dual-class this character, then I still advice you to dual her at level 13. Like I said, playing through the entire game will give her sufficient time to level up.

Keldar - Human Paladin (Inquisitor, based on Keldorn)
A Paladin is a good choice, but not an uber-character. Personally, I'd rather pick a Monk, than a Paladin. If you still want to go with a Paladin, you might want to give him the Undead Hunter kit. Why? Check this thread for the answer.

Aria - Human Cleric / Mage (multi, based on Aerie)
Nothing to add. The power you can have with this character is enormous. Perhaps I would've picked an (half-)elf instead of a human, but that is nitpicking.

Lothar - Dwarvish fighter (Wizard Slayer)
Wizard Slayers are a good choice, but of all the characters you've got here, I think this one is the weakest. Especially in the beginning. They cannot wear Rings and Amulets, which causes their magic resistance to go up very slow. Perhaps you can multi your Wizard Slayer to make him more powerful? A Wizard Slayer-Mage for example (the irony, btw) or a Wizard Slayer-Thief? Or, like I mentioned for Keldar as well, pick a monk. Monks can be awesome, really. Their speed, fists and AC become really great. Their MR will surpass that of the Wizard Slayer, especially because the monk can use amulets and rings. The only downside, compared to a Wizard Slayer, is that it does not have the ability 'spell disruption'.
Personally, I would pick a Monk over a Wizard Slayer anytime, unless you dual or multi the class.

Jahuna - Human Fighter (Berserker) / dual to Cleric at level 6 (based on Jahiera)
Not much to add. Good choice. I think a Berserker-Druid would be more powerful, but that depends where you use the Cleric for. With an Undead Hunter in the party, Clerics are not that useful compared to a druid, but a cleric does have some nice spells.

Neela - Human Thief (Swashbuckler) / dual to mage at level 7 (based on Nalia)
I would've picked the Archer-Mage kit for this one, but you need the Tactics mod for that. Archer-Mage's are incredibly powerful. Multiclassed, they are stronger than a Kensai-Mage. However, if you want to keep Neela mostly for the mage spells, then dualling her to a Swashbuckler might be the best option. Again; since you play the entire game, I would dualclass a bit later. At level 9 or 13, for example.

Another option you might consider: A Kensai-Thief or Fighter-Assassin are great choices as well. A Backstab times 7 with an Assassin is just plain nasty.


-Hope this helped or, at least, gave you a few ideas.

"Aria - Human Cleric / Mage (multi, based on Aerie)
Nothing to add. The power you can have with this character is enormous. Perhaps I would've picked an (half-)elf instead of a human, but that is nitpicking."

I always make these Illusionists (gnomes get illusists instead of mages for multi)

Although you lose out on AbiDazms Horid Wilting, and all other necromancer spells.

Also, I'm not saying you shouldn't play the game as you do, just for me, it takes away alot of the fun. I like games to be as challenging as they can.

"*shrug* then don't play like I do." - I don't

Bah... I wrote a reply, and then the board logged me out and lost it. Lemme try again...

Sytze wrote:For me, it gives more satisfaction when I beat an improved battle.

For me, it's a different type of satisfaction. In this case, I was going for the particular satisfaction of beating the game in the most spectacularly dominant way possible without cheating. But I agree, there's a lot of satisfaction in beating a more difficult battle, and if/when I decide to do that, I'll probably ask for suggestions relating to that.

Since you have a human cleric-mage multi, I assume you've used ShadowKeeper to edit your characters?

No, I haven't edited any characters. I mistyped her race -- I think she was half-elf.

A few more introductory notes:

1) since this party is for both BG1 and BG2, monks are out (as are sorcerers - not available in BG1.) Also, anything that leaves my BG1 party crippled (such as not having a thief) is out.

2) anything that would require me to modify a character using SK (such as putting kits on a multi character) is also out. I'll use SK to correct for game bugs (in particular, the bag of holding item-loss bug I keep encountering) but not to create a super-duper uber dominant character.

In your weapon selection, I did not saw the katana 'Celestial Fury'.

Yeah, as I mentioned in the "specific notes" section of my first post, this was a tough decision, but in the end, I just couldn't find the proficiencies. CF is a great weapon, but there aren't any legitimate end-game katanas (a +3 weapon just doesn't cut it in ToB.) In particular, for my Kensai mage, getting to full proficiency in 2weapon and longsword took just about every proficiency I had.

I maybe could've put it in somebody's off hand, or had my wiz-slayer spend a few proficiencies on it before he got hammers (I wouldn't give up his early-game axes -- he can get 2 +3 axes before the end of D'Arnise!) but I just can't see how I could've found enough slots for the kensai to really use it. Do you have any specific suggestions for how I could've pulled that off? Would it have been worth it even at only 1 proficiency?

I still advice you to dual her at level 13. Like I said, playing through the entire game will give her sufficient time to level up.

That would've let her level OK (though she'd have lost out on a couple of important level 8/9 spells at the end of the game.) But I tried to balance that with the amount of time I'd be waiting for her kensai to be reactivated. If I waited until level 13, it would take until near the end of SoA for her to become a viable melee character again. In this case, having the character back to full power quickly and the highest-level spells were more important than the extra attack. As you can see from the rest of the party, we weren't hurting for attacks per round

If you still want to go with a Paladin, you might want to give him the Undead Hunter kit.

I thought about it... but I really wasn't hurting for level drain protection (I get to the amulet fairly quickly, and got negative plane protection before I even saw vampires) or damage vs undead (2 clerics, plus daystar and helm of brilliance).

Also, the inquisitor's anti-mage abilities were one of the most powerful things about this character -- he could dispel anything cast by any mage in the entire game, including Irenicus, Melissan, Demogorgon, and all the liches. We'd often get to a mage fight where everyone's strategy guides say you'll have to use a whole bunch of spellstrikes, pierce shields, breaches, etc. and he'd use one dispel and the fight would be over. The double-level dispel is significantly more powerful than even a trigger full of remove magic. I can see how I could make up for losing his true sight cast, but his ability to dispel at twice his level... I can't see how to make up for that. What would you suggest?

One additional thing: since he was my BG1 party leader / PC, he retained his abilities (such as lay on hands and draw on holy might) when I imported him into BG2. This really helped cancel out some of the disadvantages of the inquisitor.

Wizard Slayers are a good choice, but of all the characters you've got here, I think this one is the weakest. Especially in the beginning.

Here, I really strongly disagree. He was absolutely the most powerful character in the party for most of the game. The inability to use rings was a bit of a problem (but then, I had 5 other characters who wanted the same rings, so they never went to waste) but he still had comparable AC to the other big fighters and he hit harder than anybody. And, of course, you can't forget about casting failures

A Wizard Slayer-Mage for example (the irony, btw) or a Wizard Slayer-Thief?

I'm not sure how the slayer-mage would work. Wouldn't he be hurting for armor pretty much all game? I guess stoneskin, armor, and mislead / mirror image casts could make up for that. I do have a slayer-thief in my current game, and I think he's an improvement, and will be even better when he gets "use any item".

I think a Berserker-Druid would be more powerful, but that depends where you use the Cleric for. With an Undead Hunter in the party...

If I had an undead hunter in the party, I'd definitely make this change. This does help make up for some of the lost anti-mage power of the inquisitor. But I think undead hunter - druid is less powerful overall than inquisitor - cleric.

if you want to keep Neela mostly for the mage spells, then dualling her to a Swashbuckler might be the best option. Again; since you play the entire game, I would dualclass a bit later. At level 9 or 13, for example.

Well, it turned out I never really used the swashbuckler abilities (not enough proficiencies to really 2weapon) so I could've used some other thief kit. What would you suggest? In terms of dualclassing a bit later, because I played BG1 and needed a second mage late-game (Aria wasn't going to cut it right at the end) that wasn't an option. If I was just playing BG2, I think I agree with level 9.

A Kensai-Thief or Fighter-Assassin are great choices as well.

How does the kensai-thief work, in particular, armor-wise? Do I just wait until I get "use any item"? The kensai-mage lets me pick up an AC 5 robe pretty early on.

The fighter-assassin (I assume I have to use SK to add the kit) sounds cool. What are his major strengths?

Thanks for the ideas. There are definitely a few I'll have to consider. Conversely, I hope you found something in my responses that you can use.

[QUOTE=Sytze]Neela - Human Thief (Swashbuckler) / dual to mage at level 7 (based on Nalia)
I would've picked the Archer-Mage kit for this one, but you need the Tactics mod for that. Archer-Mage's are incredibly powerful. Multiclassed, they are stronger than a Kensai-Mage. However, if you want to keep Neela mostly for the mage spells, then dualling her to a Swashbuckler might be the best option. Again; since you play the entire game, I would dualclass a bit later. At level 9 or 13, for example.[/QUOTE]

Isnt a Swashbuckler/Mage supposed to dual-class at (or after) lvl 10 because you can +1 to hit, +1 damage and +1 AC ?

[QUOTE=SP101]Isnt a Swashbuckler/Mage supposed to dual-class at (or after) lvl 10 because you can +1 to hit, +1 damage and +1 AC ?[/QUOTE]

Errr, yes. Make that last sentence of mine: 'level 10 or 13'.

And I'll reply to your post tomorrow, LotharBot.

To Sytze: what are the bonus of dualling a swashi. at lev. 13? He gets extra bonus every 5 lev. so 5/10 or 15. I would go for lev. 10.

To LotharBot: dual the fighter to cleric at 7, so to get the extra attack/rnd of the fighter.
Also consider the use of a druid: you already have a cleric, an will be more than enough for the game apart for turning undeads, and a druid has some incredibly powerful spells.

I definetly agree that Archer kit (tactics) mage is great!!

[QUOTE=lompo]To Sytze: what are the bonus of dualling a swashi. at lev. 13? He gets extra bonus every 5 lev. so 5/10 or 15. I would go for lev. 10.[/QUOTE]

You are correct; I'm mixing up the Swashie with the Kensai. I said level 13, because level 10 is still a bit low in my opinion, and if he would've got those bonuses every three levels (which he obviously doesn't), level 13 would be a better choice. Moreover, because the extra thief skills are always nice.

[QUOTE=LotharBot] Yeah, as I mentioned in the "specific notes" section of my first post, this was a tough decision, but in the end, I just couldn't find the proficiencies. CF is a great weapon, but there aren't any legitimate end-game katanas (a +3 weapon just doesn't cut it in ToB.) In particular, for my Kensai mage, getting to full proficiency in 2weapon and longsword took just about every proficiency I had.

I maybe could've put it in somebody's off hand, or had my wiz-slayer spend a few proficiencies on it before he got hammers (I wouldn't give up his early-game axes -- he can get 2 +3 axes before the end of D'Arnise!) but I just can't see how I could've found enough slots for the kensai to really use it. Do you have any specific suggestions for how I could've pulled that off? Would it have been worth it even at only 1 proficiency?[/QUOTE]
You could always download the ‘ItemUpgrade mod’. This mod makes CF a +5 katana and improves other items, which would normally not be that useful. I don’t think the mod is much overpowered, so if you don’t object to using a mod, you could always give it a try.

I think the CF is a great weapon, even if it is only a +3 weapon. Its stun ability makes it way better than those +3 axes that are available to you before the end of D’Arnise Keep. Celestial Fury certainly is one of the, if not the, best weapon in SoA.
As for too few katanas in the game, in ToB there’s always Hindo’s Doom; a pretty good katana. And in SoA you can find Dak'kon's Zerth Blade if you have the bonus merchants installed. Dak'kon's Zerth Blade would be a fine choice for your wife, Akira, the Kensai-Mage.

I would not give your wizard-slayer the proficiencies in katanas, unless you dual- or multiclass him to a thief, because he needs them all for the hammers, axes and perhaps two- or singleweapon styles. Personally, I would give Akira the maximum number of proficiencies for katanas instead, and put the remaining proficiencies in longswords, so she can use them off-hand. Putting proficiencies in other weapons isn’t necessary anyway.
A great combo would be CF in her main-hand and the Equalizer in her off-hand for the protection it gives. Basically, an off-hand weapon hits, if you have 5 attacks per round, only ones. This means that off-hand weapons are not very useful when it comes to damaging an opponent. Rather, off-hand weapons can be put to better use by protecting a character (equalizer), or to give extra attacks per round (belm).


[QUOTE=LotharBot] But I tried to balance that with the amount of time I'd be waiting for her kensai to be reactivated. If I waited until level 13, it would take until near the end of SoA for her to become a viable melee character again. In this case, having the character back to full power quickly and the highest-level spells were more important than the extra attack. [/QUOTE]
If your main focus lays on the mage, then dualling her at level 9 would be probably better indeed. Seeing as you already had two mages and both of them would’ve gotten their mage spells faster than Akira, I just thought that dualling her later would be better. Especially in the context if power gaming.
I still think that a multiclass Kensai-Mage would be better than a dualclass. That requires the use of SK however, and you told me that you didn’t want to use that for editing classes.


[QUOTE=LotharBot] He was absolutely the most powerful character in the party for most of the game.
I'm not sure how the slayer-mage would work. Wouldn't he be hurting for armor pretty much all game? I guess stoneskin, armor, and mislead / mirror image casts could make up for that. I do have a slayer-thief in my current game, and I think he's an improvement, and will be even better when he gets "use any item".[/QUOTE]
Like I said; Wizard Slayers aren’t a bad class at all, but compared to your other dual- and multiclass characters, I think a pure WS lacks the power. You said you went for pure powerplay and a dual- or multiclass is a better option then. At least, that’s how I think about it. I’m sure others do not agree, but having the abilities of two classes and the chance of using them both to the max (playing the entire game gives you enough experience) makes a dual- and certainly a multiclass character stronger than a singleclass. Because you already have three mages, dualling or multiclassing your WS to a thief seems to be the best option. Imagine a WS with good equipment backstabbing an enemy (mage) using his spell disruption ability. Add his magic resistance on top of that, and you’ve got one killer character.
If you still want to go for the WS-Mage combo, then spells are the only protection you’ll ever need.


[QUOTE=LotharBot] If I had an undead hunter in the party, I'd definitely make this change. This does help make up for some of the lost anti-mage power of the inquisitor. But I think undead hunter - druid is less powerful overall than inquisitor - cleric. [/QUOTE]
Since you already have a Cleric-Mage, I still advice to make Jahuna a Beserker-Druid.
Druids have great spells, especially at higher levels. Good druidic spells are ‘Call Lightening’ and ‘Call Woodland Beings’. Just plain powerful and nasty druidic spells are ‘Ironskins’, ‘Insect Plague’ and ‘Nature’s Beauty’(!!). Combine those with the cleric and mage spells you’ve got and your party becomes even more powerful than it already is.

About the Undead Hunter: the thread I gave as an example already showed why you should pick an Undead Hunter above an Inquisitor. Also remember, if you have an Undead hunter, you can give that marvellous Amulet of Power to a cleric or mage. The amulet is just made for a spell caster. However, since you gave your Inquisitor ‘Draw Upon Holy Might’ and seem rather set on the kit, I won’t mention this again.


[QUOTE=LotharBot] Well, it turned out I never really used the swashbuckler abilities (not enough proficiencies to really 2weapon) so I could've used some other thief kit. What would you suggest? In terms of dualclassing a bit later, because I played BG1 and needed a second mage late-game (Aria wasn't going to cut it right at the end) that wasn't an option. If I was just playing BG2, I think I agree with level 9. [/QUOTE]
If you use a thief kit in combination with the mage class, then you should either use the trap ability of the thief or use a thief kit that makes your character stronger. If you want to use traps, then a Bounty Hunter would be a good option. If you want your character to become stronger and have better defences, then stick with the Swashie. This because of the extra AC and battles bonuses. As mentioned in the former posts, you should dual a Swashie at level 10, instead of level 9 though.


[QUOTE=LotharBot]How does the kensai-thief work, in particular, armor-wise? Do I just wait until I get "use any item"? The kensai-mage lets me pick up an AC 5 robe pretty early on.
The fighter-assassin (I assume I have to use SK to add the kit) sounds cool. What are his major strengths? [/QUOTE]

I mentioned the Kensai-Thief and Fighter-Assassin classes, because they can dish out incredible amounts of damage with the backstab ability. Out of the two classes, the Fighter-Assassin would be the better option. You would indeed need SK to make this class, but it’s fairly easy to create. His major strength is the x7 backstab multiplier you get at a certain point. Combine that with the Fighter THAC0, hit points bonus, and HLA (high level abilities) and you’ve got a character that everyone would fear.

For a fairly detailed, though small, guide if you want to dual- or multiclass to a thief, take a look at this thread and especially Mirk's post.

He doesn't cover the Fighter-Assassin class much, but does give a general view at the class possibilities. Personally, I would go for the Fighter-Assassin for the most power and versatility.

You said you went for pure powerplay...

I wanted to make sure to say this up front again: I'm not going for pure power just at the end of the game, but pure power throughout the entire series -- so anything that badly harms the party mid-game is out, even if it makes them a bit more powerful end-game. In particular, this means the BG1 XP cap is significant when deciding when to dual-class, and having enough power at the end of BG1 is also significant.

Sytze wrote:You could always download the ‘ItemUpgrade mod’.

Do you have a link? Also, is there a good readme / spoiler that explains all the items this mod makes available?

I think the CF is a great weapon, even if it is only a +3 weapon.

I agree -- it's one of the best weapons for the entire mid-game (from the time you can get it up until Irenicus.) In a previous game, we used it with zerth blade, and later with Hindo's Doom. The main problem was that the Kensai-mage didn't have a good, solid weapon to use at the very end of the game.

Personally, I would give Akira the maximum number of proficiencies for katanas instead, and put the remaining proficiencies in longswords

Hmmm... she gets 7 total proficiencies from her fighter by level 9, one right as she duals, and 5 more for the mage at levels 6, 12, 18, 24, and 30. That's a total of 13, though 1-2 of the mage proficiencies are likely to be used on mage-only weapons (like daggers). With 3 in 2-weapon and 5 in katana, that only leaves 3-4 for longswords, and the last one comes *really* late. If I wait until level 13 to dual, that gives one more proficiency as a fighter, but the mage doesn't reach level 30, so I lose the proficiency at the end, again leaving 13.

I can see why you might want to max out CF, but it seems like it might work better to only use a few on katana, and mostly save up for longsword. 2-3 in Katana seems sufficient for the part of the game CF would be her primary weapon, and 5 in longsword is an absolute must in ToB.

If your main focus lays on the mage, then dualling her at level 9 would be probably better indeed. Seeing as you already had two mages and both of them would’ve gotten their mage spells faster than Akira, I just thought that dualling her later would be better.

Well... it's not just the main focus being on the mage. It's also the fact that a level 13 dual means I have to wait for her to get 1,500,000 experience before her fighter reactivates, and that's a really long time. It gives her a bit more end-game power, but makes her a lot more difficult to use mid-game.

Because you already have three mages, dualling or multiclassing your WS to a thief seems to be the best option.

Agreed. My current WS/thief is quite deadly.

Druids have great spells, especially at higher levels. Good druidic spells are ‘Call Lightening’ and ‘Call Woodland Beings’. Just plain powerful and nasty druidic spells are ‘Ironskins’, ‘Insect Plague’ and ‘Nature’s Beauty’(!!). Combine those with the cleric and mage spells you’ve got and your party becomes even more powerful than it already is.

I'd greatly miss my sunrays and draw on holy mights and holy smites. Ironskins and plague look nice, though. Also, this would allow me to dual-class the fighter at level 7 instead of level 6 (the XP cap is about 13K too low for a 7/8 fighter-cleric in BG1, but is high enough for a 7/8 fighter-druid.) I'll probably try it next time, at least for variety, but I'm not convinced it'll be better.

the thread I gave as an example already showed why you should pick an Undead Hunter above an Inquisitor.

Right -- and I explained why most of the statements in that thread don't sway me in this case. They might show why someone ELSE should take a UH over an INQ, but not this party.

1) UH doesn't need amulet of power -- but neither does my inquisitor (the kensai-mage had it most of this game, and we gave it to Aria at the end.) We weren't hurting for level drain protection.
2) UH does extra damage vs. undead -- but I already had sunray, mace of disruption, azuredge, holy smite, etc. Undead were my least feared enemies.
3) INQ has lack of cleric spells -- but he retained a few from being the PC in BG1.
4) Having played through the game with those super-duper dispel magic and true sight casts, I just can't give them up without a viable replacement.

As mentioned in the former posts, you should dual a Swashie at level 10, instead of level 9

Noted. The extra thac0, damage, and AC at level 10.

I mentioned the Kensai-Thief and Fighter-Assassin classes, because they can dish out incredible amounts of damage with the backstab ability.

Also noted.

take a look at this thread and especially Mirk's post.

Thanks. I'll definitely use the "only level a little bit, and then wait until you're ready to level the whole way so you don't waste proficiencies" strategy a bit.

[QUOTE=LotharBot]Do you have a link? Also, is there a good readme / spoiler that explains all the items this mod makes available? [/QUOTE]
For the site that hosts the Itemupgrade download, among others, go here.
For the ItemUpgrade link, check here
And if you want to take a peek at the ReadMe, check here.


[QUOTE=LotharBot]The main problem was that the Kensai-mage didn't have a good, solid weapon to use at the very end of the game. [/QUOTE]
Should you decide to download the ItemUpgrade mod, CF will be strong enough even for the end of ToB. Personally, I think CF’s stun ability over classes the downside of the only +3 enchantment.


[QUOTE=LotharBot]I can see why you might want to max out CF, but it seems like it might work better to only use a few on katana, and mostly save up for longsword. 2-3 in Katana seems sufficient for the part of the game CF would be her primary weapon, and 5 in longsword is an absolute must in ToB. [/QUOTE]
Like I said, in my opinion you should wield CF in your main-hand and thus spend the most proficiencies point in katanas, leaving the remaining point for longswords and/or two-weaponstyle fighting. I think CF is, especially when upgraded, better than the Answerer or Angurvadal. In SoA you could wield CF in your main-hand and Adjatha or Daystar in you off-hand and later switch to The Equalizer in your off-hand. In ToB you could use Daystar, The Equalizer or Angurvadal in your off-hand. Most longswords are perfect for protecting (Adjatha, Equalizer) or upgrading (Angurvadal) your character. Therefore you could better use them for your off-hand.


[QUOTE=LotharBot]Well... it's not just the main focus being on the mage. It's also the fact that a level 13 dual means I have to wait for her to get 1,500,000 experience before her fighter reactivates, and that's a really long time. [/QUOTE]
And what about the multiclass Kensai-Mage I suggested?


[QUOTE=LotharBot]I'd greatly miss my sunrays and draw on holy mights and holy smites. Ironskins and plague look nice, though. Also, this would allow me to dual-class the fighter at level 7 instead of level 6 (the XP cap is about 13K too low for a 7/8 fighter-cleric in BG1, but is high enough for a 7/8 fighter-druid.) I'll probably try it next time, at least for variety, but I'm not convinced it'll be better. [/QUOTE]
Are you saying that you haven’t tried a Druid thus far yet? It’s your call about using a Druid now or your next time, but one cleric is pretty much all you need. You barely use Sunrays anyway, especially in ToB (mentioning BG I is kind off obsolete). I agree that Holy Smite is useful, but Nature’s Beauty usage is much larger. And about Insect Plague; well, if there’s one spell that can make mages and clerics useless, then this is the one. Forget all that breaching, dispelling, etc. Just cast Insect Plague on the enemy, or, even better, cast it on one of your own characters. Then go invisible or hide in shadows, walk to your enemies before the plague reaches you, and voila; without harming yourself too much, the enemy party is already largely disabled.

Thanks for the links. Still a few things to clear up:

Sytze wrote:Should you decide to download the ItemUpgrade mod, CF will be strong enough even for the end of ToB.

If I'm upgrading it, that does get rid of its main weakness... I'll think about it, if I ever install a mod.

And what about the multiclass Kensai-Mage I suggested?

You can't put a kit on a multiclass character without using SK or something of that sort. (At least, I think that's how it is. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Are you saying that you haven’t tried a Druid thus far yet?

That's not what I'm saying. I had Jahiera the first time through the game. I haven't tried a druid in one of my no-NPC parties yet, though. I think I will next time based on your suggestions.

(mentioning BG I is kind off obsolete)

Er... re-read the title of this thread, please.

[QUOTE=LotharBot]You can't put a kit on a multiclass character without using SK or something of that sort. (At least, I think that's how it is. Correct me if I'm wrong.)[/QUOTE]
True, but the same goes for the multi Fighter-Assassin. Playing these kits is more fun, so why not edit just a bit with SK?


[QUOTE=LotharBot]That's not what I'm saying. I had Jahiera the first time through the game. I haven't tried a druid in one of my no-NPC parties yet, though. I think I will next time based on your suggestions.[/QUOTE]
Ok, since you said "Ironskins and plague look nice, though" I thought you didn't had any experience with the spells yet, and thus never tried a Druid, yet. At high levels, anyway.


[QUOTE=LotharBot]Er... re-read the title of this thread, please.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but I was talking about the spell 'Sunray', so mentioning BG I in that context is kind of obsolete. I mentioned some Cleric spells, and most are only usable in SoA, where you encounter the most undead and have the most use of some cleric spells. The druidic spells I mentioned, aren't avialable in BG I either (so again; mentioning BG I in this context is kinda obsolete), but are very useful both in SoA and ToB.

[QUOTE=Sytze]I was talking about the spell 'Sunray', so mentioning BG I in that context is kind of obsolete. I mentioned some Cleric spells, and most are only usable in SoA, where you encounter the most undead and have the most use of some cleric spells. The druidic spells I mentioned, aren't avialable in BG I either (so again; mentioning BG I in this context is kinda obsolete), but are very useful both in SoA and ToB.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh... I see what you're saying.

My mention of BG1 wasn't meant to relate to the spells. Rather, it was an added consideration: that I could dual-class the fighter to druid after level 7 (and get that extra 1/2 attack) rather than dual-classing the fighter to cleric after level 6.