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I just want to comment on the fact that this is the first RPG that has some sense of right and wrong. D & D RPGs allow you to steal everything and as long as you are not caught it's OK. Even if you are caught - just kill them - It's OK.
So the lesson is It's OK to steal and kill as long as you don't get caught.

In Vamp Bloodlines you kill an innocent and it costs you. Steal from Charity and it costs you. Break the rules or the law and you get hunted. Lesson here. Killing is bad. Stealing from charity is bad. You are rewarded for not killing everyone in sight and talking your way though a problem! (I wish the game did not force you into some of the confrontations - but oh well).

Anyway thei game companies that designed this should really be applauded for creating this game. A real departure from the tradition. Thanks!

This is consistant with the pen and paper Vampire the Masquerade RPG and it's Humanity system. I agree it's a welcome change from most PC games, and I am impressed as well. Anyone who likes this game and is even remotely intersted in playing any tabletop RPGs, I think would enjoy VtM as well.

Heh, are you kidding? This game has more sleaze and wrong-doing in it than any other RPG to date. The only other thing that I can even think of that's comparable is Fallout 2, and even that's put far behind.

All lesbians, no gays, and extremely chauvinist
Tons of murder and even sexual offenses
Beastiality and necrophilia
Snuff films
Abuse and torture
Peeping-tom landowners with cameras
and LEAST of all stealing and murder (which you do PLENTY of)


Regardless, I don't think games teach lessons.

The differcence dtems from the different emphasis the systems/games focueses on.

D&D is high fantasy and the focus is on magics and dragons. As in real life, one CAN get away with stealing and killing, as long as no one notices. Given that the game programming leaves alot of holes in which real life fills in, but essentially isn't it true? Furthermore, the typical 16th century setting doesn't really call for really accurate crime solving. Someone calling theif might have the town guards looking into the matter, but might never actually get the culprit caught. PLUS, it is often a consideration to allow player more inclined to Evil play such games. Even so, you do get negative consequences even when you do not get caught (in D&D at least).

Vampires:TM on the other hand is more mature in its focus. Religion, morality, consiousness, sanity, are not really discussions that are of strong importance in D&D. (They exist, but you can choose to place importance on it or not.) Vampires place rules for Morality by gauging characters action using an absolute morality set according to the setting. It is arguable that each vampire has a stricter set of morals and code of conduct to adhiere to than the average Paladin. The alignment system has a much freer interpretation.

Great comments!

shift244 - Very insitefull. Pin & Paper is real different. A human GM can for example penalize say a Paladin for turning a blind eye to the party Thief for doing evil. The Video games I guess are a little primitive in making those destinctions. I can't imagine how sophistocated these game AIs will get with dialoge and moral choices in the future.

Ruds - I don't have kids, but if I did, I would be worried about the message the D&D games sends. If people thought these games did not affect us (teach us lessons) There wouldn't be ratings for Violence and language. As adults we can see that there is a difference between right and wrong. I am not so sure with younger players. (who should not be playing this as it is rated 17+) Baldur's Gate has no rating at all.

Zadkiel - Great comments! I would love to see this done with the White Wolf properties Werewolf or Mage.