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Looking for a second tank type to complete a good aligned party consisting of

01. Protagonist Half-Elf Cleric/Mage basically Aerie without the whining and tendancy to die frequently
02. Keldron - Tank type - Carsomyr, True Sight and he annoys Anomen
03. Mazzy - ranged attack/support tank - I just really like her!
04. Anomen - healer/support tank - Slightly irritating but given the alternatives - Cernd (blandness personified), Jaheira (tied with Imoen as the most annoying NPC ever and given BG1 had Alora...) or Viconia (rather useless apart from the magic resistance)
05. Nalia - Primary mage and thief - she's modded so her thief skills are slightly improved

06. ?

I was thinking either Valygar or Minsc. Both rangers. Both good tanks. Valygar no personality, Minsc THE most annoying sound set in the game. Any thoughts as to which I should go for?

valygar

i like valygar a LOT more. He has better stats and he dual wields all kinds of swords + he isn't as annoying as Minsc. And he comes with a really good quest. Perfect!

I don't think you need another tank, but it wouldn't hurt to have one. Anomen is an outstanding tank if you buff him up properly, and I'd rather give the shortbow to Nalia and let Mazzy function as a tank. If you give her a Girdle of Giant Strength, she's as effective in melee as any Fighter her level--and Fighters are pretty darn effective in melee.

That being said, Valygar would make a fine addition to your party just because Mazzy is fond of him. And if you need a scout, Valygar's your man. Hopefully, he wouldn't annoy you too much.

It definitely sounds like Valygar is the way to go and if Mazzy likes that's good enough for me Might have to change his racial enemeny to something slightly more useful than golem though. Oh and nothing can be annoying as the inane ramblings of a mad man and his unhealthy obsession with rodents (well except maybe Jaheira and Imoen)

Completely agree about Anomen infact if I remember correctly I have used him as a tank in the past, guess I just automatically think of him as a cleric. I think I'll give him the flail of ages.

I have a slight problem with Mazzy as a full time tank, as I've modded her so she's a Truesword of Avoreen. If I've read the readme right this means she can only really specialize in short bows, slings and short swords which slightly limits her tanking potential... although if I gave her Crom Faeryr in her off hand would it matter that she only had a single proficiency point in warhammers?

By all means, take Valygar if Minsc's soundset annoys you. I think that Valygar can be very powerful, if used properly. I found Valygar's soundset to be rather uninspired, and feel that Jim Cummings deserves an academy award for his voice of Minsc... but everybody has their own opinion.

I agree though on those other points. Cernd sucks and yep, he's bland overall. Jahiera's nonstop nagging about "balance" made me want to kill her, not to mention when she told me to "be quiet" when I was conversing with the silver dragon, then starts babbling herself. Imoen's voice acting made me cringe! Sounded like the actor kept forgetting her lines. Keldorn rocks, and I think his soundset is great, if you don't mind the goody-goody theme. I think that even unmodded, Nalia is ok as a thief, her detect traps abilities is decent, and for those locks she can't pick, you can use the knock spell.

It looks like you are creating a "good" party, otherwise I'd suggest Korgan. I like the little dwarf, insane hitpoints, when he's enraged, immunity to all kinds of things, great dwarven saving throws, ability to use the dwarven throwing hammer, etc.. unfortunately he just never fit in with my party, and I don't use more than 2 tanks, which were always my PC and Minsc. You think he's annoying, I think he's great.

Edit: I'm really going to have to play a full run through of SoA with Korgan sometime. I like him because he's got strength of character. I remember going into the bridge district, and the guard there warning me about a murderer on the loose. Korgan told him quite simply "Anyone who messes with me and <charname> is going to have their guts opened up for the sun to shine on". WHat could be better than that? Korgan isn't afraid of anyone, he isn't going to back down from anyone, he's exactly the type of person you want on your side. It's just a bit worrysome that he might kill your other party members.

Edit 2: I don't think that Viconia is useless in the least. She hits level 15 fairly early, being a single class cleric, so she can summon skeleton warriors, which are one of the best summons in SoA. Her turning abilities also charm the undead onto your side, though I am undecided as to whether or not this is better than just killing them outright. But she has nearly double the spells of Aerie when only a couple of levels higher, so I think that overall she's pretty useful. I've got her at level 17 now, and she gets 2 level 7 spells. Can gate in a couple of demons, or have 2 death spells, not to mention being able to summon 3 aerial servants. She's no tank, but with gauntlets of ogre power + flail of ages she can do over 30HP damage with each hit, though she only gets 1 attack/round. As buffer/healer/backup tank she does ok. I thought she was pretty crappy to begin with, but I have begun to appreciate her abilities very much. And 65% magic res is nothing to be sneezed at. It means that she can survive the magic heavy battles, and being a cleric, she can have resurrection spells memorized, that is definitely a good thing. 18 wis... I think it's unjustified, but from a powergaming point of view, she rocks, IMO.

Actually I never said Cernd sucks , I said that Anomen was preferable due to Cernd's bland personality. I've actaully played through with Cernd as my primary healer and summoner and he proved very capable in this role( I've actually got the totemic Cernd mod installed now but haven't tried him with it yet his total stats get majorly boosted totalling something like 94 so who knows maybe I'll look beyond the blandness). Unmodded however Anomen is slightly more flexible in that he can be both a healer/summoner and back up tank as even in greater werewolf form Cernd's tanking potential was average at best.

But as for Jaheira and Imoen yes both terrible, Khalid had the right idea disection would be preferable to life with Jaheira and Imoen will once again remain in Spell Hold.

I agree about Korgan being a great character, grand mastery, no weapon restrictions, regeneration, hates Aerie, but as you noted I'm going for a good aligned party. I have played mixed alignment parties in the past but couldn't get past the reputation limit (damn it I want a big discount ) and the conflicts (Viconia ) Also it was very difficult to justify the group from a role playing perspective and there are so many limitations that prevent you from being truly evil. Although if you have Mazzy and Korgan in the same party well lets just say you might see something of his soft side...

Viconia hmmm ... still not convinced. I've no doubt that she could be a great character but I don't really bother resurrecting, I'm more in favour of reloading mainly coz it's usually my protagonist that croaks and after my IWD2 experiences I vowed never to use Gate again. Plus she still has a number of things that bug me:
01. Terrible constitution
02. The whole evil thing
03. She's constantly *****in' about everybody
04. Not too compitable with Keldorn
05. I kind of use a caucasian skinned blonde haired version of her portrait for my protagonist so it would look a bit silly to have both in the party.

Oh and returning to topic, Valygar is working out well both as a tank and scout, his companions like him, and most importantly he's not blathering on about some smelly vermin every time he swings his katanas.

If you haven't got your heart set on Valygar yet, you might also consider adding another Mage to your party instead of a tank. I suggest Jan Jansen. Even if he tags along and never does anything, he makes the game more fun. Or does he annoy you, too?

I'd choose Minsc if it were me playing, but Valygar for you. Why?

Minsc THE most annoying sound set in the game.

That's why. You're supposed to have fun in this game, not be annoyed.

I'm not gonna make comments on your party choices because you didn't ask for them but as to the Valygar/Minsc problem, I'd go with Valygar. He walks like a ranger, talks like a ranger and hey he's a ranger. Now Minsc he walks like a barbarian, talks like a barbarian, but what's this? He's a ranger. Wait a minute that doesn't make any sense. That's my arguement.

Also think of this. The guy who does Minsc's voice is also Winnie the Pooh, occassionally tigger, eyore and/or owl, and Taz.

I'd personally take Minsc, because I think he's hilarious, but if you hate him, then DEFINATELY take Valygar. You'll be able to make yourself survive no matter whome you take.

But without Minsc, then you won't have the mighty Boo to stare evil in the eyes, and then bite those eyes!

I don't have any problems with Minsc being a ranger and not a barbarian. Rangers uphold good, and prefer wilderness to cities. I see Minsc in this way. Remember, since becoming a ranger, he took a very nasty blow to the head, and has witnessed the brutal murder of the person most important to him, Dynaheir. I think it's perfectly understandable that he's gone off the deep end, and is fanatical about crushing evil. I don't know what he was like in BG1, as I never even found him in that game, and we don't know how he was before he was whacked over the head. At any rate, I like psycho warriors, with psycho soundsets. I find Minsc to be quite amusing, and I like the whole "Butt-kicking for goodness" idea. I actually had no idea that his voice annoyed anyone, until I read this post.

Somewhat unrelated, I didn't like any of the male soundsets that the PC can use in BG2. I dislike hearing people prattling about their honour. "On my honour". Eh what? All I was going to do was to tell you to walk over to that spot right there and you have to bring your honour into it? Not to mention the fact that the PC is supposed to be around 20 years old, and these guys all sound like they are older than 35. Had to import one of the original voices from BG1, at least the "DEATH TO YOU ALL!" battlecry has some malice to it.

Actually VonDondu I so quite like Jan, if I don't feel like playing a mage type character I often have Jan in the party, as being multi class Illusionist/Thief he is more qualified than Nalia, which allows her to concentrate more on the magic. I also enjoy his interactions with Keldorn and Anomen, although he does tend to fluster poor little Mazzy so.

Skuld feel free to comment on the party the only NPC I make a point of picking up is Mazzy and the only ones I definitely won't consider are Jaheria, Minsc, Imoen and Viconia. I've actually I've thought a bit about what I said in my last past about not being able to justify mixed alignment parties and realized I was wrong.

Tower_Master not to sure about guaranteed survival would be exteremly difficult with current portagonist (cleric/mage), Haer'Dalis, Cernd, Nalia, Edwin & Jan. I mean if Jan and Haer'Dalis got into a conversation the characters would never actually get the chance to leave Athkatla

HAHA, how true! Jan at least is funny, Haer'Dalis is just plain annoying. The way he talks, you'd think that he believes himself to be one of the characters he had portrayed during his acting career.

I've just been playing some SoA, and I have to admit, Minsc can get a bit annoying after a while. We don't need to hear him screaming every time we tell him to perform an action. "WHERE MINSC GOES, EVIL STANDS ASIDE!". OK OK Minsc... all I did was to ask you to loot that corpse. I still think that his voice acting is done well though, the actor at least remembers his lines, unlike some others.

I'd perhaps try taking a similar party through SoA, but I think I'd have trouble role playing a cleric. I dislike the idea of needing to rely upon being the lackey of a diety in order to have power. I suppose that it could be role-played that your clerical powers come from within, being a half-god and all, but then how could it be explained that you still have those powers after you lose your other bhaalspawn abilities? The ability to use clerical spells in triggers/contingencies is quite appealing though...

Oh, and about Viconia. At level 16-17 she gets 8 level 3 spells, this equates to 8 skeleton warriors, if you are like me. Skeleton warriors are by far one of the best summons in SoA, magic resistant, strong, etc. I use then in the final battles even, they are that good. Her con is very low, but she still manages to have more HP than Aerie, which I don't understand. What saving throws does con affect in SoA anyways? I know it affects poison, but poison was only ever a problem for me in the beginning of my first time through the game. Does Con affect death saving throws? At any rate, there is items to help with this, and spells... but I haven't noticed Viconia dying a lot. I could see a huge advantage though in having a cleric that will survive nearly every battle, since they can raise the ones that don't. Perhaps I'm only impressed by Viconia because she is a lot better than I thought she would be.

Edit: Oh, silly me. Poison is a death saving throw, isn't it? Well I can see that a low con would definitely be a bad thing then. 2 clerics with low con in a fight vs. a spellcaster who uses symbol: death = reload, I guess. I guess it's not so bad though... Aerie can at least use Spell Immunity: Necromancy.

Give Viconia something to enhance her pathetic strength and just watch her getting better and better. She can fight well and cast spells. Especially the summons ones and healing/resurrection. Quite useful, I always include her. Further, she is also my favorite romancable female, the two others annoy me no end. And in ToB she actually gets really lethal.

That is the short of it and I am too lazy to elaborate right now.

Best wishes; Palle

Here goes my comments on your party:
1. After playing a sorceror I refuse to use any lesser of a spellcaster. Make one your NPC or take along Kelsey(NPC MOD) and you'll find out.
2. Keldorn is a good pick. I like his character but refrettably have never played with him for any length of time.
3. Mazzy is a good archer. I'd leaver her unmodded.
4. Anomen I can't stand, but he is functional and I have used him rather successfully before as much as I hate to admit it. But his stats are appaling. I like Viconia better as a Cleric.
5. Nalia is definately NOT on the top of my list. She's definately usable as a thief, but I'd SK her to add a nother thief level or two. Having two Mage types does have it's disadvantages though. There's only so much good mage gear, so my backup mage is usually Jan who comes with all his own gear or Haer'Dalis who is a severly underestimated character and one of my favorites.
6. Valygar. I've never used him much but he definately personifies a Ranger more than Minsc. And I hate Minsc.

Before I go suggesting a new party how set are you on being a Cleric/Mage and how set are you on a full 6 characters?

Not particularly set on being a cleric/mage it just made sense in light of may last party only having one mage and one cleric. I do prefer playing a protagonist that does have some access to magic though and if dual classing I'm not to keen on any of the fighter kits especially kensai's s I do like my missile weapons. Sorcerers are a possibility but would require spell selection advice.

I think I've already said this but as far NPC's go the only ones I won't consider are Imoen, Jaheira, Viconia and finally Minsc. Mazzy is not a must be I do like to try and include her

I gotta run, but I'll give you some good spell picks and advice after i get home from work.

Well since you requested advice on sorceror spell selection I'll tell you how myself and many other agree sorcerors should be played. Use then as artillery. There's no point in dancing around casting protection spells on yourself when your opponents are still gonna be there when they wear off because you didn't have enough firepower to finish them off. Now for spell recommendations:

level 1: Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Spook, Indentify
level 2: Mirror Image, Web, Melf's Acid Arrow, Vocalize
level 3: Fireball/Skull Trap, Dispell/Remove Magic, Haste/Slow, Flame Arrow
level 4: Stoneskin, Fireshield Red, Wizard Eye/Spider Spawn, Greater Malison
level 5: Breach, Chaos, Cloudkill
level 6: Improved Haste, Mislead, Prot. Magical Weapons
level 7: Mordenkainens Sword, Khleben's Warding Whip
level 8: Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Simulacrum
level 9: Gate(remember to have your Cleric cast Prot. Evil 10' Radius before hand), Time Stop

You should be able to get the gist of things from these suggestions, my only fault may be that I'm not sure how many of the higher level spells you're actually gonna be able to aquire, so chose your first choice first. That goes for all spell selections in general as you progress in level because you're not getting that spell until the next level up. The main reason I like Sorcerors is that you don't have to rememmorize different spells for different encounters, and if you're gonna rest and you've got extra level 1 spells unused just identify everything before you rest. I'm also not a huge fan of triggers and contingencies and I never use them so I leave them out because there are better things to choose. Enjoy. And the returning throwing daggers are great for Sorcerors.

Thanks, I'll give the sorcerer a go

Sorcerer is definately one of the best classes. I find Gate a waste of spell slots though. the competent enemies you meet when you can cast lcl 9 spells can easily deal with a Demon. Rather summon a planetar (same spells as a priest equals additional healing and resurrection) og make a Dragon breathe on them.

Best wishes; Palle