GameBanshee Forums

I decided to start a new thread inspired by Wrath-Of-Egg and Brynn about cheating. I wan't to know what people consider as cheating. What is your personal opinion about level squatting, permanent mules, exploiting a bug, min/maxing, using ease of uses some HOF items in normal or editing characters wit Dalekeeper II? Also if you have other ways you do something, let us know. But as Wrath said this game is about having fun. So if you think about cheating or exploitation from that point of view. If you are having fun with what others think is a definite no-no, what's the point of not using it if you are having fun? And that brings us to the conclusion that everyone can have their own opinion so no dissing other peoples thoughts or arguments.

My personal opinions:
Level squatting: Well I tried it and got insane amounts of XP from easy monsters. But I like to play with 4 char parties, so It's a little boring playing just 2 charachters at the beginning.
Permanent mules: I'm not even going to try this cause it sounds like no fun. Altough I could see myself adding a character afterwards that is going to start from lvl 1, cause someone could join the group later in roleplay point of view after all.
Exploiting some bug: No.. not fun cause the game can be played without such
means.
Min/maxing starting statistics: Yes. Why not? Everyone has their weaknesses and strengths in real life.
Using some HOF items in normal: Well I did it and seems to make the game a little too easy.
Editing characters in Dalekeeper: No. Why?

So there it is. Give me your opinion. Thanks.

TK

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ah! - ...another one on that issue:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=54288

seems to be one of the favoured threads here


[QUOTE=silverdragon72].

first I think everyone should play a game as he likes - so this thread shouldn't condemn or judge about players who don't play the out of the box version...

...but on the other hand I think a thread discussing about what is cheating prevents statements like: "I beat HOF battlesquare with my level 8 barb without any problems!"


think you should differ between:

- DKII
- mods
- EXP strategies
- in game tactics


1. Dalekeeper 2

wouldn't say using DKII is generally cheating - but only for the reason that IWD2 has some bugs - so you could run in a situation where you need DK2 to go further ahead - or to get things you should get if the game would run correctly!

...also DK2 could help if a new player finds out in Kuldahar that he made some party or PC-building mistakes and don't want to start a new game: "why can't my wizard cast level 3 spells with 12 INT and 18 WIS?!"

but editing stats you couldn't also get while creating a PC is cheating from my point of view!

...also using DKII for level-squatting purposes - but later on this issue!



2. mods

there are mods I wouldn't call cheating at all - e.g. the undead targos mod:
extremly challenging, less EXP then you would get without and you don't get any powerfull extra items.

weidu-moduls:

- ignoring allignement restrictions: cheating!

- bottomless bags and infinite stacking: don't make your party more powerfull, just keeping your inventory management on an acceptable level!

- imp. bastard swords: difficult issue - BS is the only weapon category that doesn't have any good weapons - and is the only one that needs an extra feat! So from my D&D understanding a BS should always be the 2nd best weapon available in a game (best should always be a paladin-only sword ) so I think it's ok to add some BS that are more powerfull but still a little bit weaker then cera sumat.

And at this points starts the problem: some of the BS you get with the mod are overpowered or to early in the game available!

If you buy fang with 5D6 acid damage at targos for only 16.000 gold this will be quite imbalancing...

...so I think it's up to the player which of these imp. BS he uses and when he use them...

I don't use the +5D6 "whatever" BS nor the undead slayer, but I use wroth when I found it, started using bastards son at the end of the ice-tempel and will use BS of heroism if I find it!


bonus merchant: as this is on the official collectors edition bonus CD - no cheating!


Magic Weapon Finesse: should be implemented right away from the beginning from my point of view!


Some Heart of Fury Items in Normal Mode: cheating - cause completely overpowered from my point of view


All Items Identified: hmmm...-...who needs/uses this ?


Include Forgotten Armor and Shields: as the title says: forgotten - so should be in anyway


Armor and Shields Provide Damage Resistance: don't use this - but as it gives the bonus to you *and* your enemies it should be ok to use it


Additional Druid Spells: it would make sense that these spells are available for a druid, and I don't think that they make the druid to powerfull - but on the other hand who needs them ? I have installed them - but never used them - cause I never needed them!


Alternate Shapeshifting: very cool - but much to powerfull in normal mode - but I think I will use some of these shapeshifts in HOF!


Deep Gnome xp fix: should be ok from my point of view that all races starts with 1000 EXP to go to level 2!


BG2 bonus merchant: think it depends on what you take - the equalizer is to powerfull from my point of view, but I take the drow armor (not better then Drakkas) and can't resist to take the Tsuki no-ken but only uses it after finishing dragon eye. Have to admit Tsuki no-ken is quite powerfull - but not better then the bracen bands, every gods ring or cera sumat from my point of view and don't has an immense damage output.
Luck and freedom of movement you could cast on your PC anyway - but it's still a nice to have as item effects - and without these effects the Tsuki no-ken is not much better then the golden heart...



3. EXP strategies

muling: don't think that it's cheating if you don't have all PCs on the same level - but two level 20 PC and 3 or 4 level 1 PCs is just ridiculous !!!

...so I would say as long as the lowest level PC has at least half of the level of the highest one it's ok - also if you add new PCs at a later point of the game - but then keep them and level them up!


level-squatting: you gain and you lose something: you get more EXP as long as you don't level up but the the game is also much harder!

After taking the squatted levels, you get less or even no EXP at all and the game is easier

...and you can't MC-if you level up - so level-squatting has some severe disadvantages...

...*but* if you use DK2 to avoid these disadvantages I would call it cheating!


camping & extreme bug/yeti killing: as the game allows to do so - no cheating - but if abused I would call it cheesy



4. in-game tactics: there are also some tactics I wouldn't call cheating but cheesy

- ORS-abuse
- dublicating items (cheating)
- stacking bard songs
- extreme & pure decoy builds
- ...


...btw.all these points should be considered as only my personal point of view!!!


.[/QUOTE]

just to give my 2 cent

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For me everything that's not included in the orginal game is cheesy. Mods are just cheese (yes, they can make the game more enjoyable, so that's jsut cheese), DaleKeeper and such is cheating.

On second thought... some mods can be considered as cheating, too. Like, there's a mod that gives you items from BG2... Providing much better items that could be found in the original game is too much for my liking.

Everything is cheating, imho, that the orignal game wouldn't allow (like creating a multiclass char that otherwise couldn't be created in the game). I think the way the game was designed provides everything that's necessary to finish the game with ANY of the character classes. You don't need more stat point, more proficiency points, better items than the game allows you to have, b/c you can finish the game without altering these features.

I'm sure many will argue about multiclass chars. From the roleplaying point of view it may be resonable, after all. Why shouldn't you play an archer/mage, if that's what you want...? Anyway, I think the available multiclasses in the game are there for a reason - other combinations might give you a character that is much more powerful than the rest...

The case of bugs is different, however... I believe nobody would call it cheating if someone stuck outside the Ice Temple teleported his party over the non-existing door that SHOULD be there. That's OK.

Thanks silver for your opinions. I knew I read a thread about it long ago but I couldn't find it so as Brynn suggested, I made my own thread.

[QUOTE=Brynn]On second thought... some mods can be considered as cheating, too. Like, there's a mod that gives you items from BG2... Providing much better items that could be found in the original game is too much for my liking.[/QUOTE]


on most parts I agree...

...but not on items and some moduls of the WEIDU mod:


- item design and balance is one of the weakest points in IWD2 IMHO and with the random loot - it's even getting worse...

- shapeshifting is not designed for HOF so using the additinal shapeshifts in HOF seems to be ok for me

- and as said weapon-finesse for magic weapons should be implemented right away from the start.


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