GameBanshee Forums

NOte: I cant actually take credit for this thread, I'm copying it from another site.
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Ever notice that there really isn't much difference between a 20th and 30th level Fighter? How about a Mage? A Cleric? A Monk?

It's kinda sad, but the only big difference is a few High Level Abilities. The point of this thread is to determine which class (or multiclass) character(s) go the best without hitting a level of "diminishing returns."

My initial thought is that Fighters (and their kits), Thieves (and their kits), Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians and Monks hit this "diminishing returns" level earliest. The warrior classes don't advance in THAC0 after level 20 or 21, they don't really gain too many more hit points (although it is more than any other class), by this level you're probably specialized in any and all weapons you'll ever want to use, and there's only so many "Greater Whirlwinds" one can use. The saving grace of a Paladin is the ability to summon a planetar, which is extremely powerful and helps the good cleric of the party by saving him a 7th level spell slot.

Monks reach a certain level where their magic resistance stops getting better. At that point on, they're very boring. They just don't really change at all.

Thieves still advance in all of their skills, but as seen by people who use Imoen, you don't really need any higher than 100 in locks and trap removing skills, and the other abilities are so high it doesn't matter either. Aside from some cool (or cheesey, depending on how you look at it) trap-related HLAs, and UAI (which everybody seems to take), there really isn't much in the way of High Level Abilities there either.

I guess Clerics, Druids, and Wizards (and all of their kits) are marginally better than the warrior classes because they will earn some extra spell casting slots. The HLAs of the priestly spellchuckers are pretty boring, save for "summon greater elemental" IMHO. And after passing level 14 as a druid (difficult to do if you're using Jaheira), the druid gets a bunch of bonuses, but the best of them are the added spell slots.

The arcane spellchuckers (Wizards and Sorcerers) get some cool HLAs, like the extra spell slots and improved alacrity. Aside from these, they still reach the same level of diminishing returns that all of the other classes do.

My question to you all is this: What class(es) don't hit a level of diminishing returns? Are there any? If not, what classes take a long time to hit that level? I'm thinking that the classes that take their time to hit that level will end up being the most interesting to me.

The only thing I can think of is using multiclassed characters a lot. There must be some other way.

What about bards? Do you think the added range of HLAs they get make them a more unique character set, one that evolves more completely?
N...

Fighter/Mage/Thieves don't have that problem.

I think Bioware included some things that keep up the fun at high levels (HLAs), but then the original game is simply limited.

AD&D second edition was basically made for characters up to level 20 (technically almost unreachable in PnP if you start at level 1 - this would take years and the typical DM manages to kill the group far earlier, intentionally or not). Nevertheless TSR created the Handbook for High Level Campaigns, which extended the limit to 30. That's where HLAs come from as well. The book dicusses the problem of high level boredom pretty good. And the message is quite clearly that fun and thrill at that level do not rely on ever growing abilities, but on tactical challenges.

I'm thrilled that Bioware implemented the game up to the highest levels in the first place, it was the first time that AD&D players could really use all those high level spells themselves, instead of just reading about them in handbooks and I'm thankful for that. But somewhere around level 25, your character is simply to godlike to develop much further. You can raise the dead, stop time itself and gate in superior planar beings - there simply is nothing more to have in good old Faerun.

My question to you all is this: What class(es) don't hit a level of diminishing returns? Are there any? If not, what classes take a long time to hit that level? I'm thinking that the classes that take their time to hit that level will end up being the most interesting to me.

David Gaider, one of the Bioware designers of BG2, has provided a number of "Improved Tougher" mods, available here, that make squeezing all the possibilities out of your party classes much more important. As I recall, these versions of your opponents were intended for the original game, but removed because of their difficulty.

Its a problem with AD&D itself.

the hit roll is based off of d20

well... at high levels your base hit (THAC0) tops out at 0 but the toughness of monsters can keep growing...

The Assassin could always do with more points into his skills, especially his under leveled hide in shadows ability.

One option is to slow down the level advancement. You can do that one of two ways - there's a Ding0 Experience Fixer mod you can install which reduces the XP rewards. Or you can manually edit the XPLEVEL.2DA file in your overrides folder. (Personally I edit the file - when I tried to install the mod, it showed a ton of errors, although it said it installed ... I didn't trust it though, so uninstalled. Could be a conflict with one or more of the other mods I have installed though ...)

Either way, it means you're going up levels slower, so hit that 'level of diminishing returns' a lot later in the game (or not at all, depending on how much you slow it down by).

Considering 2900k exp as the turning point of the analisys (exp. cap for SoA and point before starting to get HLA).

Fighters: as pointed before very diminishing returns, after a coupple of extra lev.; no Thac0/S.T. imp., marginal Hp imp., and after 4-5 lev. ups also the HLA want add much more, so that class will definetly have strong diminishing return shortly after the 3million exp. point (let say at 4/4,5 M exp); a little better goes for Paladin, because at 2,9 M exp they haven't yet reached the ceiling of Thac0/s.t. and spellcasting (reached at lev. 20), they improve L.o.H, and get to summon Deva which is a very good HLA, so their point of diminishing return is moved forward (let say at 5,5/6 M exp).

Thief: at 2,9 Mexp, rogue has already capped Thac0/s.t., have probably reached very high lev. in almos all the abilities, but the HLA offer some really good option to give variety to the class: UAI offer the chance to try new set-ups, assassination is very powerful for a backstabber, but specially the traps are very interesting, offering a lot of new option to the game (think of time traps), so it will take a while before hitting the diminishing returns point (let say at 5 M exp).

Bard: at 2,9 Mexp, bard has already capped Thac0/s.t., but he still is improving in his spellcasting, although at a slower pace, but the HLAs give him a lot of spice: UAI, traps and a new enhanced song, all offer you a lot of more option for playing a bard, moving away the turning point (let say at 5 M exp).

Clerics: at 2,9 Mexp, cleric has already capped Thac0/s.t., but he still is improving T.U. and his spellcasting, although at a slower pace; the HLA are not the end of the world only giving some extra good spell to choose from. They hit the turning point fairly soon (let. say at 4 M exp).

Druid: the druid is very peculiar, because at 3 M exp it really change, gaining a huge amount of extras that will be like playing with something different. After that is improving is relativly slow, but because of the huge amount of high lev. spell slot available, the gaining of the new spells from HLAs is more interesting. Better than claric, turning point at 5 M exp.

Mage: at 2,9 M exp a mage doesn't have 9th lev. spells (!!) and knows few 8th, and he still has to improve Thaco/s.t.. Plus a lot of spells get more powerful with the growing lev. of the caster. After lev 22 (4,5 M exp) the pace at which the spellcasting capability improve will reduce, but will remain interesting till lev. 27 (6 mil. exp.), the HLA offer some very good spell/options to chose from, so till 6 M exp. you will be evolving.

Sorcerer: He starts to get really powerfull after 3.0 M exp!!!! he can learn the HLA spells extra the usual 9th lev. spells, so he is able to cast a huge amount of very high lev. spell. One can really understand the power of a sorc. when he is high lev. Probably around 5,5/6 M exp. they will hit the turning point (although some spells will still be improving).
when he is really high lev