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For some time I have been thinking about the way that characters are created in Morrowind, and the ways in which they evolve.

[rantmode]It seems to me that unless you want to be highly proficient with spell casting, the entire process of skill, race and attribute selection matters not one iota. Yes, in the initial stages of the game, having a major in a particular armor or weapon helps greatly, as do resistances to various magic effects. However, if you decide you want a radical career change, once you gather together some coin (and we all know by now that becoming wealthy is hardly an onerous problem) this is extremely simple to achieve. As far as inbuilt resistances go... there are plenty of items you find or make that do the same thing.

So what if some races start with certain armor or weapon bonuses? Sure, they may seem like obvious fighter or thief types, but there is *nothing* stopping a Redguard or Nord from becoming a thief if you have the gold to train them up to high levels in Stealth and Security. Equally, while Bretons may seem obvious candidates for spell casters, or Wood Elves for thieves, both can be just as strong and capable in melee as any one of the 'warrior races.'

High elves are perhaps the only exception because of their inherent weaknesses (though these can be countered without that much difficulty). Even with the beast races.. sure you can't wear closed helms or boots, but is it really that much of an issue? The majority of your protection comes from your cuirass and greaves anyway, and quite a few people opt to go without a helmet as it is.

IMO, the only "class," permantly affected by character creation is the Spell Caster. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that magic-based classes have an unfair advantage where character creation goes. Select a Breton or High Elf along with the Atronach sign and you have a wopping intelligence/magicka bonus. There is nothing equivalent for fighters and thieves; unless you exploit
a certain point of the main quest there is nothing similar that will provide as much of an inflated boost to your main stats. And that is only for fighters really.. thieves will never be able to increase (without enchanted items) their primary skill/attribute set over 100.

Yet, paradoxically, it is nigh on impossible to get by on magic alone. It is far more efficient to slash something to little bits than it is to employ magic. The only way Destruction really makes much sense is as an alternative to ranged weapons. I mean, I am currently playing a Breton with an 80 in Destruction. My Short Sword is around 45, yet it is still much more efficient than trying to use Destructive Magic. Even custom spells that combine elemental effects are most useful when used from afar. You know, those low point cost, long acting spells which significicantly damage your foes before they even reach you. Not only that, there are many enemies that resist and reflect magic, making it even more difficult to use as an alternative to swords and the like.

And then there are the Birth Signs... The only two worth selecting are the Atronach and the Lady (and the Lady eventually becomes pointless as well). Now why did Besthesda give such a large selection of birth signs when only two of them are even worth considering? [/rantmode]

Thoughts?

cool topic dragon i likes alot. i think the birthsigns may have just been to make the game deep. i dont know about u but i was hooked the first time i rented it and then i said well im gonna buy this game. but i guess it all boils down to letting u make ur own person.i remeber the first time i played i took some sign that made me invisible but l8er in game it was worthless.

I personally preferred sheer character creation with Daggerfall to Morrowind. If you wanted to create a guy that was far more powerful than the average character from the start you could, with a price.

To be honest, I never really go above level 30. I make my own equipment and play with the creator and test it more than actually playing the game. I have noticed though, out of all of the characters I've made, the ones I've focused on having the ability to toss on armor and a sword that they've enchanted will crush anything they come near. You can forget stealth, and a bow, and everything else. If you have high enchant, high destruction, mystism, heavy armor, long blade and you have a walking engine for destruction. All the other skills are just cake.

The fact that you CAN train every skill to the same level ruins things in my opinion. It's one of the reasons I don't bother going through the game with high levels. If you stay at a low level, your character ends up having a personality. Your distinct, with talents in certain areas and you aren't good in others. My fighter/mage can't sneak, can't barter, can't jump around, but he can smite anything that comes within reach of his sword and unleash all sorts of pain and come out nearly unscathed.

I like the challenges that presents me. The fact I can't sneak, at all, makes me either get an item that allows me to, or disregard tact and stealth and charge head on. If I could fight as well as I do and sneak around, I'd be god. The fact that if I want a certain something in a store I can't afford puts me in the predicament of killing everyone in the store to get it or walking away, not stealing it. I know I could survive the fight, but is it worth the trouble that will result elsewhere in town? Stealing it means no one would know.

Now, if I make a thief, that same problem is switched. I can't survive most fights, but I can sneak around those fights I can't survive.

I just don't bother with high levels. It takes the joy out of the game. It's like tossing on god-mode. It can be fun for a half-hour, but after that you wander off to find something else to do.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]<snip>
Now why did Besthesda give such a large selection of birth signs when only two of them are even worth considering? [/rantmode]

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Because they didn't learn from Daggerfall - which was the reason why I never fell for Morrowind eventhough I absolutely loved Daggerfall and played it for years. Bethesda tries to do "everything", but then falls just "short" of the target.
There is in my opinion many exampels of this:

A relative large and nice world - which just feel static and bland.

Open ended story - that just becomes way to easy way to fast if you infact play it as open ended.

A nice change with a skillsystem instead of class-level system, where what you use is what you gain in - but where a character ultimately can do anything to fast, so consequently no sacrifice is made when you choose, because you can do it all. (huge flaw in Morrowind/Daggerfall in my view)

Many quests - which just feel overwheling and confusing (especially with the lousy log system they had in the game initially).

Many NPCs - but bland that didn't feel "alive" but as if they only where there for your sake.

and so on right down to the things you mention:
Birthsigns - Nice idea and something which really could influence your character the playing style - but one "overpowered" (atronac) and a number of directly pointless.

Different races to select from but basically it matters nothing.

Now I know the expansions and mods have fixed (some of) these things - but still ... come on Bethesda, you should be able to do better now.

So basically - Bethesda tries so hard to make a CRPG, but in the process - they just lack the final "push" to get up to the top
In my view anyways.

Aye, go DW.

Um, lol!

I don't know that I really intended this thread to be much more than a brief critique, and I doubt I stated anything that hasn't already been said many times.

@Eric, yes you can increase the difficulty slider with the PC. But, even at a difficulty of 100, once you get beyond about level 20 or 25, there is not a lot that can really hurt you. As Magrus said, the game is most enjoyable at the lower levels (in my view, below level 10) because you can't do everything and you are quite vulnerable. I do try to focus on roleplaying by deliberately not training my character in any armor class beyond one (usually light, and unarmored by natural default since I go sans helmet). I also generally avoid paying for training, unless it is to get a boost in something like alchemy, usually up to about 40. Further, I don't normally use more than about two different types of weapons. But even so, it is basically impossible to not end up with an invincible character, even if you actively try to avoid it.
Admittedly, this time round I chose a Breton born under the Atronach... so it is partly my own fault

I think Xandax is right too, this game *could* have been amazing, and indeed many of the mods out there have rectified some of the balance problems.. But still... surely Besthesda could have done better. Let's just hope they seriously tackle these issues in Oblivion

Guys, please don't spam this thread. If you can stay on topic, it'll stay open. Otherwise, I'll have to close it.

And remember, spam is only allowed, per Buck's rules, in SYM (Speak Your Mind).

Spam and offtopic discussion removed.

DW, I pretty much agree with your statements and I've nothing worthwile to add, except mention this mod I was reading about on MW Summit:'Galsiah's Character Development'.
I haven't tried it myself but it seems to get rid of the skill/100 limit and makes leveling a bit more slow for balance.