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I wanted to throw out this topic for discussion. I've been running different parties composed of different classes. So far, all of my parties have always included a cleric, be it a good or evil one. However, I'm curious if anyone has run a party without a cleric, and, if so, what difficulties (besides the obvious ones, such as lack of a robust healer/undead turner) have been encountered in keeping the party alive.

And, if there were such difficulties, what did you do to compensate/solve them? Was it worth not having a cleric in the party?

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never tried it - for the obvious reasons

think you will get in to much trouble in the early game...

...in the later game you won't need a cleric - e.g. the "assassin" build on level 10 (with both swords) can solo the game (with a few healing potion) without any problems!

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I don't think there is any class at all that is "necessary". The only reason the question is even raised about clerics is they're the one class this isn't totally obvious for, because they are the ultimate utility players in D&D (apologies to druid-lovers; they shine more in pnp, IMO). But you don't need clerics either. They're just very nice to have around for many reasons. I like them mostly for healing early and for adding holy later. With a good weapon, they make a pretty good spell-flinging meleer with good survivabiliy too, so you don't sacrifice much to get the good stuff. Their standing as possibly the best choice of all the classes to always have one of in your party is balanced by the fact that their utility diminishes when you have more than one. That is, a party of all clerics usually isn't quite as effective as a party with just one and four other classes.

Necessary: no. Nice: most definitely.

Concur

While you can get by (healing potions and all) they are definitely a very nice addition. I am present finishing level 2 of the temple dungeon and my cleric is my present kill total leader. She has over 115 kills, which is maybe a third of all the party's kills (haven't added it up). But the log book lists her as having the most kills. How she did it is by destruction of mass numbers of undead using turn undead.
(possible spoiler)
There are large numbers of undead at Emridy meadows and the moathouse.
there were also a number of undead random encounters during my travels to and from locations on the map.
Certainly could have won these encounters but she made life much easier even at 2nd or 3rd level.

And spells like bless, sound burst, flame strike, and holy smite are surely nothing to shake a stick at either.

Other Cleric Bennies

Holy smite is great. I used that a couple of times against big bunches of bug bears on level 2.

Also just remembered that giving the cleric the ability to craft weapons is useful as well. You can make some pretty devastating weapons from what I ahve read in some posts. Having a paladin in my party I gave my cleric this feat, although I haven't used it yet, so I could create some "Holy" weapons for him.

Yes, that's true. A Cleric with craft weapons can produce some neato weapons of mass destruction. However, I usually have my cleric (and druid for that matter both druid and cleric have similar or analogous types of spells) on crafting wondrous items since the clerics have a lot of the ability-boosting spells like Bull Strength and Cat's Grace.

[QUOTE=Philos]Holy smite is great. I used that a couple of times against big bunches of bug bears on level 2.

Also just remembered that giving the cleric the ability to craft weapons is useful as well. You can make some pretty devastating weapons from what I ahve read in some posts. Having a paladin in my party I gave my cleric this feat, although I haven't used it yet, so I could create some "Holy" weapons for him.[/QUOTE]

Always remember that the most powerful creator of weapons, and all other stuff, is the elven Druid.

I had a party of 5 Clerics in one runthrough, and it was a blast!!

3 pure ones and one Roug1/Cler9 and one Wis1/Cler9. This party was unbeatable, but i've learned a thing or two about the game weaknesses.

Never diss. a good Cleric!!

I ran a discussion a while back where i boldly stated that a F7/Cler3 beats the crap of a F10 any given Sunday. This topic is still whorthy of discussion.


Extra levels in Cler or Rouge is priceless when the XP cap is at lvl 10...

The most cheesy spell ever in TOEE is with no doubt C3 'Meld into stone'. A bit harder when soloing, but i had great succes soloing with a F2/C3/Wis5 character...Fragarach of course (cheese ). And all those potions/rings of Invisibility that we can't seem to find a use for...


The Crusade Against Evil Continues,... Mulligan

[QUOTE=Mulligan]Always remember that the most powerful creator of weapons, and all other stuff, is the elven Druid.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you say this? The druid can't make a holy weapon, and I don't know how making him an elf helps at all. If anything, seems like a human would be better, for the extra feat (I know you can't pick any crafting feats at level 1, but with only 3 feats after level 1 for a pure druid, and 2 or 3 of those going into crafting/brewing/scribing, sure is nice to be able to use a feat for something else like spell penetration or weapon focus or something). Anyway, what does being an elf get you?

A lvl 10 Elven Druid can make:

* special druid only items
* special elven only items
* +3 weapons
* Flaming weapons
* Shocking weapons
* Frost weapons
* Icy Burst weapons
* Shocking Burst weapons
* All Gauntlets/Bracers/Medallions +6
* Most Ioun Stones
* Most Wondrous Items

Yoo need a Mage for Keen weapons and a Good Cleric for Holy weapons and a Lawful Cleric for Axiomatic wepons, and a Cleric for Cleaving weapons.

If you go for Holy and/or Axiomatic, your choice of alignment for the Cleric is very limited, and also for the entire party. The Druid has better offensive spells, and a +Dex elven Druid is a decent Archer in the back row. Overall, with the same feats as a cleric the Druid can craft more varied items for the entire party, freeing your Cleric to take other feats...

But of course it matters how you build your party, having several crafters can make the Druid a poor crafter, but think of the N.Evil/Cha.Evil/Law.Evil party builds.....


Mulligan.

What in ToEE is an "elven only" weapon, was really my main question.

You're right about druids being good general crafters, as they can make most of the elemental mods to the weapons, plus 4 of the 6 +6 stat enhancers (the good 4), plus they can make the amulet of mighty fists, which is nice for a monk who uses bare hands. I do find holy very useful, though, and you can get that by making a cleric of Pelor (who can be any of the three good alignments) with the good and sun domains (for flame strike). So, I usually have a cleric like that supplemented with a wizard to add the elemental stuff the cleric can't do (and keen). If you only have one crafter, a druid might be the way to go. I just don't like to give up my precious holy. On the other hand, you find several weapons with holy on them already, so you can just mod them, but this limits your weapon choice. I want my cleavers!

I still don't know what item in ToEE requires an elf to craft, unless it's the cloak/boots of elvenkind that are all over the place anyway.

Holy is maybe 'the' best enchantment, as most foes are evil..

but, lots of foes are Chaotic too, making an lawful evil priest able to to some damage dealing with crafting Axiomatix weapons..

All Undead (afaik) is neutral, and some of the hardest elemental beast (galeb duhr's...) are also neutral. These foes are best battled by elem dmg, and most foes, whether good or evil, are not res. to elem. dmg.'

I have, in my runthroughs, experienced SilverDragons max.10 cap on enchanments..

I believe there was a list of the cost of var. enc. to weaons in this forum once, feel free to search. It's there...

SilverDrag. is of course right again about adding the ++'s first, then the rest., but IMOEXP it always equals +10, the sole exception beeing the all powerful Cleaver of total 3 in game items. Theese wpns. seem to be 'coded' as keen, instead of beeing enchanted as 'keen'. Unless i'm ser. mistaken, this wpn has in protos.tab values that make it keen 'unenchanted'. The same goes for those Daggers +1, of Venom you find, that sell for less then the daggers of +1, + ?? that you make. Dag + 1, of Venom, can, become a TRULY deadly dagger...



Who knows , maybee there still is something to do with magic, enchanting blades like Frostbrand & Flaming sword further is neat, but what of the L.Evil cleric of Hextor with Law & War Domains, ; There is no magic Heavy Flail in the game, you have to create your own..I did this, and could not get past +10...

Different AL PC builds should be playble, so the overall Druid is the best crafter unles you have a Cleric/and/mage to do it for you..

Have some of you also noticed that the Bard is/could be the best brewer of potions ??

Supporting all good vs. all evil..

Mulligan..

[QUOTE=Lord Plothos]What in ToEE is an "elven only" weapon, was really my main question.[/QUOTE]

I did not mean 'Elven' only weapons, just that an elven Druid with the same Crafting feats as any other Crafter, can make a broader variety of items..

A party of Fig/ Roug / Cler/ Sorc/ Wis may not need this, but you don't nesc. need 2 arc. casters or you like more fighters... it all depends, but if the solo crafter is the druid, he's your man...





Mulligan

Again, I can see that if you only have one crafter and want not only to make good weapons but other things as well, then the druid is probably the best all-around choice, but I'm still not seeing what being and elf does, unless it's to make the cloak and boots of elvenkind. If that's it, being an elf isn't much help in the crafting department, IMO, because there are too many of those floating around already, and they don't even help all that much.

So, if you have a human druid crafter and an elven druid crafter, what more can the elf make besides the cloak and boots of elvenkind?

Maybe a little off topic but... I've played many of the DnD based computer games and find the Cleric to be one of my favorite classes. In fact, in many games, I will just skip the Fighter in my party and use a Cleric as my main 'tank.' Why do I do this? Well, for one, I think Fighters are too powerfull and make for a generally less exciting (i.e. too easy) style of game. Clerics can wear all the same armor but on top of that they can make themselves deal nearly as much damage with certain buffs, cast may beneficial 'party buffs' and cure/restore/revive, not to mention Hold Person, remove paralasis and last but certainly not least SANCTUARY. The game that really got me hooked on using Clerics instead of Fighters was Icewind Dale 2. Not sure if this all applies to ToEE specifically as I just started (I'm nearing the end of the moathouse if I remember the original module correctly.) For my first party I'm using a Strength/Heal focused Cleric and Dual Wielding Bard/Rogue (no armor just mirror image and cats grace) as my main 'tanks' backed up by an archery style Ranger and 2 wizards. Working well so far. If my cleric goes unconsious I cast invisibility on her with one of the wizards to avoid her getting killed and step up with the ranger to tank. When my 'zards' can summon better monsters I will probebly start stepping off with the cleric more often and use area effects.

So, in summary, yes in many games the Cleric is not specifically needed as your fighters become more powerfull. But on the other hand, Clerics are versatile and make the games more interesting and strategic and in most cases will make your early game much more managable.

~Vulp