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I know that is it possible to have your alignment changed to NE in Hell. My question is, is it possible to have your alignment changed to a good one? My character is LN, and I would like him to be good aligned. (This is the character I want to take into ToB)

From all the post I have read, no you can't move up to Good.

That is really stupid if you ask me. If your actions can make your alignment change to evil, then why not to good?

I agree

Because good is dumb..
Seriously, I think it makes sense, it's always easier to go from Good to Evil,than from evil to good, and, you are the child of an evil God- so your natural inclination should be to become more fallen- it should be a day by day fight to even remain neutral.

Sloanzilla:

I disagree. Personally I think that environment, not genetics, has the greater influence on a persons alignment. Yes, I know, your father was a god but that does not really make that much of a difference.

Even if you are right, and it is EASIER to go from good to evil than vice verse, it should be still POSSIBLE to go from neurtal (or evil) to good.

Just my humble opinion of course.

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Mr. Clark ]

Originally posted by Mr. Clark:
<STRONG>Sloanzilla:

I disagree. Personally I think that environment, not genetics, has the greater influence on a persons alignment. Yes, I know, your father was a god but that does not really make that much of a difference.

</STRONG>

*lol* This is an old sociological argument known as the Nature vs Nurture controversy. Which more effects us as we grow up, our biological profile, or our environment? The obviously answer is that both have an effect on the human psyche, and neither is more important than the other.

But this is a game where half of your biological makeup is derived from the very essence of murder, death, and evil. It seems logical that the slide to evil for such a creature would be the path of least resistance.
Kind of like the way a skydiver who jumps out of a plane can't possibly claw his way back inside, while you're in Hell you can't hope to redeem yourself once you start following in your father's footsteps, no matter how much "good" you do.

Even if you go with a chaotic evil and take the paths of good?

As another example (non-RPG), look at Darth Vader...is he good at the end of return of the jedi? I mean, he did choose the good side of his test in hell.
Also, if you think about it, any true neutral character has probably been going back and forth the whole game. I mean, you don't want to be evil, so you, say, free child slaves, but you also didn't help the beggar. So just doing 1 thing won't redeem you from either side.

In the Bible, angels have fallen. (Satan) but I don't think any demons have risen.

If it is possible for angels to become evil, but not possible for devils to become good, doesn't it mean that eventually, evil will win?

Clark asks:
That is really stupid if you ask me. If your actions can make your alignment change to evil, then why not to good?

First, you're a child of Bhaal. If you're going to be tempted by your dad and his cohorts, it isn't going to be to head a boy scout troop.

Second, you're not moving in a geography that inspires much contemplation or action of good. If you want to be corrupted in that sense, you probably should be pursuing some other missions, in another area.

I don't think neutral alignments should be forced to become Evil if they take the evil path in one of the tests. That kind of defeats the purpose of being neutral, in my mind, if they're forced to be good.

Originally posted by Sloanzilla:
<STRONG>In the Bible, angels have fallen. (Satan) but I don't think any demons have risen.
If it is possible for angels to become evil, but not possible for devils to become good, doesn't it mean that eventually, evil will win?</STRONG>

Well, it's thermodynamically sound. Entropy is constantly increasing, and in most classical mythology Evil is just a function of entropy and chaos.

you should be able to become good because if you remember your fate is how you shape it so you should be able to become good or evil. or remain neutral but i don't know

Oh no! A marxist! BLACK LIST HIM NOW!

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>First, you're a child of Bhaal. If you're going to be tempted by your dad and his cohorts, it isn't going to be to head a boy scout troop.
</STRONG>

Lets just say for a moment that you are in a store. In front of you is the first copy of ToB to be released ANYWHERE. You look around and no one is looking. I must assume that you feel tempted to grab it and run. Just because you are tempted, does that mean that you are 100% sure to do it. No.

Originally posted by Mr. Clark:
<STRONG>Lets just say for a moment that you are in a store. In front of you is the first copy of ToB to be released ANYWHERE. You look around and no one is looking. I must assume that you feel tempted to grab it and run. Just because you are tempted, does that mean that you are 100% sure to do it. No. </STRONG>

What the hell does that have to do with anything? The question is not "If you are tempted to do evil, do you?" The question is "If you are tempted to do evil, and you succumb, does that make you inherently evil?"

My answer, given your lineage and the fact that you are being tempted in an environment that is pretty much pure evil is a resounding Yes.

Just because someone was tempted and succumbed to an evil impulse does not make that person evil, regardless of the divine lineage. You're right, it could be that person embraced the evil. But, it also could be that person had a momentary lapse in judgment.

In my mind, a truly evil person is someone who does not WANT to do anything that may be construed as good. If a person still has the desire to do good, however small that desire may be, then he/she is not a TRULY evil person.

Clark writes:
In my mind, a truly evil person is someone who does not WANT to do anything that may be construed as good. If a person still has the desire to do good, however small that desire may be, then he/she is not a TRULY evil person.

So we're supposed to ignore the whole issue of actions, while focusing solely on intent? By the above criterion, Hitler and Stalin were saintly individuals, since they both believed they were doing what was best for humanity.

Your statement also leaves out completely the realistic aspect of the moral equation: how does one live as "good" in a world which is both morally neutral, and occupied by people who hold entirely different codes from yours?

Let's consider an example of the latter in a fantasy RPG situation. You kill an old man suffering from a horrible, wasting disease, because he begs it of you, and your inner beliefs urge you to do this; but the members of his family hate you and try to kill you for having committed the ultimate sin in their religion, striking one of their kind down as he showed weakness in the face of death. He still had time to face up to it, but because he is now gone forever, he is doomed to their lowest hell. By their lights, you are depraved; by yours, they are.

Clark, even if we find a way to get out of the above, it's only one example among literally millions of situations a person might face. I would suggest "good" isn't a matter simply of intent, since for anything to be good or evil implies a choice of actions--activity is required; and activity is as complex as intent is easy to define.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Clark, even if we find a way to get out of the above, it's only one example among literally millions of situations a person might face. I would suggest "good" isn't a matter simply of intent, since for anything to be good or evil implies a choice of actions--activity is required; and activity is as complex as intent is easy to define.</STRONG>

Well, in the case that you're describing, Good is subjective. In most fantasy RPG settings, there is an objective Good, ie, a pantheon of good deities whose moral compasses dictate what is 'good' behavior for mortals to follow.
Since in the game it is objectively evil to let a friend or innocent be killed even though you could save them without risking your own life (just a few stats), then you should be prepared to accept the consequences of that evil action. The game engine leaves no room for you to negotiate, saying for instance "Well I can raise him with no trouble and no harm is done. How is that evil?" The game just offers you two choices. One is good, one is evil. And following the evil path means accepting your father's heritage.

fable and Metatron:

Point taken.