[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]Now this is a discussion! For my money, the Anarchs are not formally about Anarchy, as mentioned above, and more about simply opposition to authority from any number of different sources. In this manner, they are very similar to those who call themselves 'outlaws' without the understanding that it *was* a
punishment. By being sentenced to live outside the law, 'outlaws' also no longer enjoyed the
protection of the law. Consequently, they were free game for anybody with a grudge and a weapon.
There are a number of flavors of 'outlaws' among the anarchs. Nines, while opposed to authority from the 'ruling class' as it were, nonetheless elects to lead the anarchs, possibly without his own conscious volition. Thus, he himself becomes one of the authority figures he finds so distasteful.
Jack may be closest to a true anarch, in that he's just out to 'spoil the soup', as it were, perhaps for no better reason that it can be spoiled. On the other hand, Jack may be the ultimate dictator: One who loves to run things, but wishes to protect himself by subterfuge
a la an
illuminatus. He appears to obey no rules except those imposed by biology and survival - and himself.
Skelter is simply anti-authoritarian. He doesn't object to the rules - he simply doesn't like them being imposed on him from an external source.
Damsel loves to have control, but doesn't like to be seen as a legitmate controlling influence, so she goes the way of the bully: enforcing her will by intimidation and brute force and probably consoling herself that she is not actually imposing an order of her own choosing.
The true anarch, though, is Bishop Vick, who, through conscious decision and act, wishes to *impose* chaos, regardless of who is affected, how, or why. He seeks no control or power and may be the one character who actually welcomes your victory over him, being as how it demonstrates that he himself is not immune to the chaos he creates. That makes him the most dangerous of the lot, of course, because he no longer has cause to
fear anything.[/QUOTE]
Yrth I'm afraid I must disagree with you on two accounts and also feel I must clarify what 'Anarchy' truly means and what it means to be an 'Anarchist'.
Anarchy, in the strictest sense of the word, refers not to a general state of chaos and disorder, though it's a common misconception, but rather to a complete LACK of a system of government in a community of people. To exist in a state of Anarchy is to coexist with others without the presence of a government, ruling class or really any sense of organiszation amongst the community. In a utopian sense Anarchy is the state human beings would live in were we perfect beings who all shared a common sense of moral and ethical values on how one is to live life and, more importantly, coexist with other humans: we are not, however, and so governments were created in order to impose these morals and ethics on everyone, in order that we still may exist in such a way regardless of our imperfections or differences. That doesn't mean we all have to be perfectly nice and kind people, but rather that we all live together with under the same self-imposed guidelines (if it's a state of 'good' or 'evil' is irrelevant).
The definition many are giving of 'Anarchy' and 'Anarchs' is incorrect: they are not sowers of chaos, but rather believe in living their lives without the oppressive restrictions of government. The misconception lies with the fact that human beings aren't perfect and don't all live by the same moral code and so, without a government to impose these same values on all, chaos and disorder tend to run rampant. Going back to yrth's comments, in this sense Vick is far from an anarchist: he cares nothing for governments or rulers (which is the whole key to being an Anarchist is that you acknowledge their presence and choose to not believe in them) and insteads seeks only to sow disorder. He's a sociopath (also clearly insane) and, I agree, the most dangeroous of the lot.
The true anarchs of the lot are, in my opinion, Skelter and Nines. Nines is a tough call, I admit, because he has risen to power as an authority figure and, like was mentioned, thus would seem to become that which he loathes but I believe this to be not by choice but by coincidence. The rest of the anarchs chose him as their leader because he seemed to be the most powerful and the anarchs' greatest weapon against the Camarilla. He didn't seize power himself, rather it was thrust upon him and, seeing as the Anarchs need a leader, he accepts the role. He, like Yrth's description of Skelter, believes in rules but those that exist in the common sense of survival. I see him and Skelter as close to identical, but Nines is in power (whether he wants to be or not).
Skelter, because of Nines' ascent to leader is probably the ideal Anarch. He flat-out dislikes people telling him what to do because he has enough common sense of what needs to be done in terms of survival for himself and the community and doesn't need any governing power. The fact that he tends to defer to Nines shows that he has another bit common sense that only Nines seems to share with him: in order to effectively fight the Cam the Anarchs can't strictly hold true to their belief in no authority because that would entail existing disorganized and ineffective. He follows Nines out of respect and his realization that there must be
A leader, and seeing as Nines is the most charismatic and powerful, he defers to him out of discipline to the cause and common sense. He believes in a lack of government and nothing else: the ideal Anarch. Yrth's description is again superb because he does believe in rules, but the rules of survival that exist in the common sense of vampires; not those of a dictator like Lacroix, the Cam or any gov for that matter.
Jack, Damsel and Isaac are
not true Anarchists. Jack is the closest of the lot, and Yrth hit the description of him dead-on here (Props to you sir
) and he would seem to be an Anarchist Ideal in his belief in the laws of survival (see yrth's description here, I won't copy it). The fact that he then tries to impose these laws on others in the sense of how HE believes in them, however, makes him something else entirely. Were he to just try and survive and fight for the destruction of an external government he'd be ideal, but he is a manipulator at heart and imposes his will and morals on others using them to achieve his own ends, whether it's survival or just entertainment, and this makes him an authority figure. I wouldn't quite call him an
illuminatus , but the comparison is mostly effective if somewhat exaggerated: he's simply a manipulator. Making him out to be an Anarchist be cause he wants to "spoil the soup" isn't true however.
Isaac is no Anarchist at all in that he believes in a sense of government: his own. As Yrth said he wants the power for himself, so he is a selective Anarchist (which in the strictest sense makes no sense but still fits): he doesn't want any government other than his own, so he chooses to fight and call himself an Anarch because he's rebelling against the same government as the REAL Anarchists. Were he to have it his way, however, he would be the one in charge, making him nothing more than the Strauss of the Camarilla (he's just more vocal and not a Cam).
See Yrth's description of Damsel as I believe it word for word and am tired of typing
.
Sorry if not all of this is clear, but it makes sense in my head and I tried my best to convey it as throughly as I could
. As for Yrth, your basic characterization of the characters was wonderful, better than I could do in fact, but you had the definition of what Anarchy is wrong (Anarchy is not chaos) and so IMO you're judgements of the character's as anarchists was a bit off.