GameBanshee Forums

Alright, so I took a break from Lionheart and now I'm trying again to make a good character. Right now he is an in-process human with

Strength 3 (4)
Perception 9 (10)
Endurance 2 (3)
Charisma 9 (10)
Intelligence 8 (10)
Agility 9 (10)
Luck 1 (2)

Elemental Spirit

Renaissance Man
Gifted

Fortitude
Ranged Weapons
Diplomacy

The main thing I am wondering about right now is whether to be human or demokin. If I don't have a race trait that makes me tainted, is there any disadvantage to being a non-human?

Also, I'm wondering whether items can bring attributes above 10? If not, should I keep all my attributes below 10 to start with in anticipation of receiving these items? What about perks that give attributes, will they bring them above 10?

Also, how much do I need to be able to carry? Is 125 enough to start with? Can I afford to get Eagle Eye, which would bring me down 30 more pounds?

I'm also seeing things that affect Speech, but I can't find what on earth speech is. Is it a skill? A derived attribute? I'm really confused.

I'm also wondering about Vampiric Fury. Could that be used as an alternate way of healing so I don't have to waste tons of skill points on Fortitude, or is 1 health per 10 damage dealt too small?

Will having low strength make me unable to use some items?

Will items that give attributes allow me to get perks that require high attributes?

I'm going to be using ranged weapons, but do I really need a high perception for this? Does it only affect the damage and initial skill level?

Is it worth getting more endurance for Disease Ward or Venom Ward?

I'm also thinking about being demokin to get Power from Beyond for the extra skill point per level.

Also, what does this mean? "SNIPER: You have mastered the bow or crossbow as a source of pain. With this perk, any successful hit in combat with a ranged weapon will be upgraded to a critical hit if you also make a Luck roll." What is a luck roll? Should I get more luck just for this? Is anything immune to critical hits?

By the way, what is the maximum level, and has anyone reached it?


Wow, that was a long post. If you can answer any of these questions please do, because I'm waiting on a reply before starting.

Thanks

Right, lots of points to answer...

Personally, I don't minimum/maximum stats like that, especially to that extent. That's not to say it's impossible to win with such a character though. Sticking to a Ranged Weapon should get you through reasonably.
Your Endurance may well be a big problem though, unless you can find some way to draw off an enemy's attention from your character.

I think all the Sylvant and Feralkin traits mark you as 'tainted' and half of the Demokin's do too. I think playing an untainted Demokin/normal Human is about equal.

Oh, definitely. In fact, having scores above 11 can provide serious benefits. However, the Gain Attribute perks cannot be chosen if that stat is at or above 10 (either naturally or because of an equipped item). If you make sure the stat is below 10, when you want to increase it (e.g. remove stat enhancing equipped items first) then it should e possible to increase it - this has to be done BEFORE the level up and not just before you choose the perk though.

I wouldn't reduce that weight limit, personally, especially if you will be wearing Plate or Full Plate armour in the game. IIRC, those armours weigh around 40.

If you look at the Thieving Skills, there is one called Diplomacy, clicking on that shows two other skills (Barter and Speech), whenever you put pouints into Diplomacy, both Barter and Speech will also increase.

Yeah, I'd say it was. An enemy could deal 100pts of damage over several hits and you will have only regenerated 10. Plus, I think that spell requires 160 Mana to cast, which is very expensive, not to mention the points you need in the branch to cast it in the first place. You could use the skill to suplement Fortitude (Healing) though.

Generally, no. The limits are based on the amount of points you have in a skill branch (e.g. 50 Ranged to use a composite bow).

Not 100% sure on that. Maybe Fljotsdale will be able to shed light on that.

Perception does help quite a bit, but isn't absolutely essential. You amount you have should be more than enough (e.g. I often go for 7 originally).

Those perks are quite useful at times, but I don't know if I'd specifically change things for that reason.

Any chance to get more skill points is generally worthwhile.

I haven't seen anything immune to Crit Hits in the game. As for the Luck roll, I don't know, it's one of those things hidden by the game. It's possible the Luck stat does have an effect on it, but I don't know how much by.

I think I've managed Level 37 before, there isn't a level XP cap as far as I know and it's unlikely you'll ever reach it (unless you export a character mid-way through the game and restart with the character thus gaining the XP twice - but I haven't tested that).

Phew, I think that's it. I hope you can follow all that...
Hopefully, the colour coding will make it an easier read.

Thank you so much!

I think I'm actually going to be a demokin now. By the way, Vampiric Fury is a demokin trait, not a skill: "You draw strength from the blood of others. For every 10 damage you inflict, you heal 1 Hit Point. All healing spells and potions, however, are only half as effective for you. You can pass as human unless other traits mark you as tainted."

So will that be enough to use as my only method of healing? Or will enemies be dealing as much damage as I will?

What exactly would perception do for me since I'll be using ranged weapons? It's supposed to be important for ranged players but I don't know how.

Now I gotta add up all the attributes gained from perks so I know what to start my attributes at in order to get the maximum benefit. Edit: Just thought of something. If an attribute is at 10 can I pick a perk that raises it OTHER than the standard raise attribute ones (like the ones with secondary benefits)? And how about the temporary benefit ones like when you are low on health?

And if a perk is available when you level up, will it always be available when you level up afterwards if you didn't pick it, or are perks only available at specific levels?

By the way, what does the whole being marked as having a taint thing actually do?

Edit: Okay, now I've adjusted my attributes in anticipation of getting perks to raise them. Here are my starting attributes:

Strength 3 (4)
Perception 7 (8)
Endurance 8 (9)
Charisma 8 (9)
Intelligence 7 (9)
Agility 7 (8)
Luck 1 (2)

I will get the Gain attribute perk for each, plus Weapon Handling to raise agility to 10, and Superior Senses to raise my perception to 10. I'm assuming that the perks that activate when you have low health will bring attributes above 10, otherwise I guess I just won't get them unless you know a reason for me to do otherwise.

Is tagging Diplomacy actually necessary if I don't care about barter prices? I'm just getting it in case it gets me more quests or better item rewards, I don't care about gold.

Bah, just realized that you can get more attributes from factions too. Are there any other quests or anything that give you more permanent attributes? Do attributes from factions go above 10? And why does everyone say the Wielders are so good? The Inquisition looks better to me because of the +1 skill per level.

Thanks again

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]I think I'm actually going to be a demokin now. By the way, Vampiric Fury is a demokin trait, not a skill: "You draw strength from the blood of others. For every 10 damage you inflict, you heal 1 Hit Point. All healing spells and potions, however, are only half as effective for you. You can pass as human unless other traits mark you as tainted."

So will that be enough to use as my only method of healing? Or will enemies be dealing as much damage as I will[/QUOTE]

Ahh, yeah. I was just getting it mixed up with the Vampire spell. If you're going to be putting lots of points into Healing, then it won't be as much of a disadvantage. You can't really use it as a sole source of healing, unless you're a lot faster than your enemy (you can sacrifice your damage for a greater chance to hit, I believe).
Enemies can deal as much damage as you, if not greater.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]What exactly would perception do for me since I'll be using ranged weapons? It's supposed to be important for ranged players but I don't know how.[/QUOTE]

Well, it increases your sight range, opens up more perks and it may increase your chance to hit enemies. I'm not entirely sure on the latter.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]If an attribute is at 10 can I pick a perk that raises it OTHER than the standard raise attribute ones (like the ones with secondary benefits)? And how about the temporary benefit ones like when you are low on health?[/QUOTE]

The perks that increase attributes without saying you need 10 or under in that stat should be accessible whatever the amount of points you have. I don't know if temporary effects like you describe would have an effect on the perk system. I presume so, but in that case, you can either wait to regenerate health or use healing generally.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]And if a perk is available when you level up, will it always be available when you level up afterwards if you didn't pick it, or are perks only available at specific levels?[/QUOTE]

Some perks can only be chosen before or after a certain level (Inherited Resistance have a level cap for example and Slayer has a minimum level requirement). Other perks require another to be chosen first. This should be described in the manual and in the game's Readme file - which shows the more up-to-date info.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]By the way, what does the whole being marked as having a taint thing actually do?[/QUOTE]

Some merchants like the one in the Crossroads region offer special items to the untainted and there may be other obscure effects, nothing crucial though.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]I will get the Gain attribute perk for each, plus Weapon Handling to raise agility to 10, and Superior Senses to raise my perception to 10. I'm assuming that the perks that activate when you have low health will bring attributes above 10, otherwise I guess I just won't get them unless you know a reason for me to do otherwise.[/QUOTE]

The effect is only temporary, but it can help you to win battles occasionly. It depends on the kind of tactics you use I think.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Is tagging Diplomacy actually necessary if I don't care about barter prices? I'm just getting it in case it gets me more quests or better item rewards, I don't care about gold.[/QUOTE]

I never bother to tag Diplomacy, there are some major enemies that can be persuaded out of combat, but I prefer bonuses to hit and damage from tagging weapon skills or a spell branch.
Barter can give you discounts or greater rewards occasionly. It may even effect a merchant's selling inventory.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Bah, just realized that you can get more attributes from factions too. Are there any other quests or anything that give you more permanent attributes? Do attributes from factions go above 10? And why does everyone say the Wielders are so good? The Inquisition looks better to me because of the +1 skill per level.[/QUOTE]

The Wielders route provides quite a lot of bonus Mana and an Intelligence upgrade (or two) leading to more skill pts per level.
Helping the Beggars does eventually lead to you acquiring a Luck potion which increases the attribute permanently. Another of these potions can be gained from killing the Goblin Khan. Those are the main ones, other than that, attribute increases come from factions or temporary effects.

Thanks! About the perks only being available at certain levels, I meant if a perk says you need to be level 11 does that mean you can't get it after level 11, or merely that you have to be at LEAST level 11?

As for Diplomacy, I guess I won't tag it if it isn't necessary for completing a lot of quests, which I'm assuming since you mostly talked about the Barter aspect.

You said that if you join the Wielders you can get an Intelligence point or two. The GameBanshee walkthrough only mentions one. Is it wrong or were you just unsure? If it's just one point, then it seems to me that joining the Inquisition would be the way to go, since I can have 10 Intelligence anyway, and by joining the Inquisition I get +1 skill per level in addition to an attribute point (what attribute it is really doesn't matter if I can't get it over 10, because I'll just adjust my starting points).

I'm also assuming that permanent attribute bonuses like that can't bring it above 10. If this isn't the case, please let me know!

Also, do I really need 10 Charisma in order to do all the quests and things? I've experimented with different amounts and really missed out on a lot even if I was only slightly lower, but I don't know where the cut-offs are.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Thanks! About the perks only being available at certain levels, I meant if a perk says you need to be level 11 does that mean you can't get it after level 11, or merely that you have to be at LEAST level 11?[/QUOTE]

Generally, that would be level 11 or over in that case. I don't think there are any perks that have a minimum AND a maximum level they can be taken.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]As for Diplomacy, I guess I won't tag it if it isn't necessary for completing a lot of quests, which I'm assuming since you mostly talked about the Barter aspect.[/QUOTE]

Well, I know Fljotsdale is a big fan of Diplomacy, particularly the Speech aspect as it provides an easy get-out clause for many of the major battles. I think it depends on your style of playing the game really. I expect Fljotsdale will argue the case for Diplomacy when she sees this thread.
I mentioned Barter primarily as that was the one you were asking about I think.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]You said that if you join the Wielders you can get an Intelligence point or two. The GameBanshee walkthrough only mentions one. Is it wrong or were you just unsure? If it's just one point, then it seems to me that joining the Inquisition would be the way to go, since I can have 10 Intelligence anyway, and by joining the Inquisition I get +1 skill per level in addition to an attribute point (what attribute it is really doesn't matter if I can't get it over 10, because I'll just adjust my starting points).

I'm also assuming that permanent attribute bonuses like that can't bring it above 10. If this isn't the case, please let me know![/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't have the manual to hand, so I can't remember all the fine details. I would expect the GB walkthrough to be correct.
Attributes CAN and do go over 10.
It's only for the 'Gain Attribute' perks that you can't take them if the attribute is 10+. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways to get it above 10. I had 11 Perception in one game.

Yeah, if a faction or an item provides the attribute bonus, the attribute will go over 10.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Also, do I really need 10 Charisma in order to do all the quests and things? I've experimented with different amounts and really missed out on a lot even if I was only slightly lower, but I don't know where the cut-offs are.[/QUOTE]

Well, I can't think of any quests that are missed out on for having a lower Charisma, it's possible that you won't get the high Charisma responses in dialoguge though. The main benefit of Charisma seems to be the greater Mana Capacity it provides.

Thanks for all your help!

What would be the best tagged skill if I don't get Diplomacy to go with Ranged and Weapons and Fortitude? Evasion?

Would I be at a large disadvantage if I tagged a skill or picked a skill that wasn't under the domain of my spirit? Like what if I got the Thought Magic: Protective or something? What would having the wrong spirit do?

Can Absorb Spirit be used in place of Fortitude: Healing? If it works as well, I'd much prefer putting points in Protective: Tribal because then I could have Mana Shield and Animal Grace too.

What about Righteous Fury? Could that be used as a healing spell instead? I seem to remember it not doing much when I tried it, but neither did Fortitude: Healing.

If I don't pick a perk when I level up, can I save it for when there are better perks available?

I just realized there is a Feralkin perk that doubles your hitpoints!!! Wouldn't it be worth being Feralkin just for that?

So perks that raise attributes but aren't labelled "Gain ___" can bring them above 10? Or not?

[QUOTE=BallOfFire] Thank you so much!

I think I'm actually going to be a demokin now. By the way, Vampiric Fury is a demokin trait, not a skill: "You draw strength from the blood of others. For every 10 damage you inflict, you heal 1 Hit Point. All healing spells and potions, however, are only half as effective for you. You can pass as human unless other traits mark you as tainted."[/quote]

Well, it's ok, I suppose. Personally, I think the disadvantage with healing spells and potions is NOT worth the sacrifice. And you can find/purchase potions of vampirism anyway, so you get the advantage without the disadvantages.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]So will that be enough to use as my only method of healing? Or will enemies be dealing as much damage as I will?[/quote]

I don't think your healing will be enough. Some early enemies pack quite a punch.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]What exactly would perception do for me since I'll be using ranged weapons? It's supposed to be important for ranged players but I don't know how.[/quote]

Perception improves your ability to see traps, hidden doors, and hit your enemies with Ranged weapons. It is one of the most important Attributes, imo. I never start with Perception less than 5 (minimum).

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Now I gotta add up all the attributes gained from perks so I know what to start my attributes at in order to get the maximum benefit. Edit: Just thought of something. If an attribute is at 10 can I pick a perk that raises it OTHER than the standard raise attribute ones (like the ones with secondary benefits)? And how about the temporary benefit ones like when you are low on health?[/quote]

If an Attribute is at level 10 you cannot raise it with Gain Attribute Perks. However, you CAN raise it while WEARING an item that raises the attribute. Suppose you have a STR of 10, and find and equip a Belt of the Titan; that will place your STR attribute as 10 (12)

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]And if a perk is available when you level up, will it always be available when you level up afterwards if you didn't pick it, or are perks only available at specific levels?[/quote]

Only one Perk is only at one level. Most of 'em you can pick up any time you level up, so long as you are at the required level and meet the other requirements. (BTW - haven't you checked your Manual for this info? Or your READ-ME notes?). But Inherited Resistance is ONLY available qat lvl 2 (your very first level-up). It is a very useful perk.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]By the way, what does the whole being marked as having a taint thing actually do?[/quote]

Not a lot. At first, you will find that some traders or guards or others, will make adverse comments. But if your response is polite and non-aggressive they immediately stop being rude to you. The only thing you might care about is the price you get for stuff at the merchants. But if you build up your diplomacy skill, and/or get stuff to improve Diplomacy - Barter, or Diplomacy - Speech, you are unlikely to lose much.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Edit: Okay, now I've adjusted my attributes in anticipation of getting perks to raise them. Here are my starting attributes:

Strength 3 (4)
Perception 7 (8)
Endurance 8 (9)
Charisma 8 (9)
Intelligence 7 (9)
Agility 7 (8)
Luck 1 (2)[/quote]

With that STR you need to be Ranged, not Melee. If you do all the quests possible to you, you should be able to get 2 items to improve luck permamantly.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]I will get the Gain attribute perk for each, plus Weapon Handling to raise agility to 10, and Superior Senses to raise my perception to 10. I'm assuming that the perks that activate when you have low health will bring attributes above 10, otherwise I guess I just won't get them unless you know a reason for me to do otherwise.[/quote]

Weapon HAndling is no good unless you are a Melee fighter, which I don't recommend with your STR.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Is tagging Diplomacy actually necessary if I don't care about barter prices? I'm just getting it in case it gets me more quests or better item rewards, I don't care about gold.[/quote]

Not NECESSARY, no. But Diplomacy - Speech opens a number of options you would not otherwise get, and, if it becomes high enough, you can talk your way though SOME encounters, thus saving you a LOT of healing potions, and getting the same experience points as you would if fought them.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Bah, just realized that you can get more attributes from factions too. Are there any other quests or anything that give you more permanent attributes? Do attributes from factions go above 10? And why does everyone say the Wielders are so good? The Inquisition looks better to me because of the +1 skill per level.

Thanks again[/QUOTE]

Wielders are good, that's why! :laugh: But what is 'good' for your character depends on what you want them to BE. If you want a high magic char, go for Wielders. If you want a high melee char, go for Knights Templar. If you are not squeamish, go for the Inquisition. You get a better balance of Magic and Melee. But once you have looked over their premises you may not be so keen...

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Thanks for all your help!

What would be the best tagged skill if I don't get Diplomacy to go with Ranged and Weapons and Fortitude? Evasion?[/quote]

I quite like Evasion. But any Thief skill would be useful. Lockpicking, probably, since you Perception should help you spot traps and hidden doors.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Would I be at a large disadvantage if I tagged a skill or picked a skill that wasn't under the domain of my spirit? Like what if I got the Thought Magic: Protective or something? What would having the wrong spirit do?[/quote]

Not a lot. The advantage of picking a Magic skill in your spirit's domain is that all magic schools within that domain start with 1 point instead of 0. If you tag a magic that is outside your spirit's domain, you only get the ONE school you have chosen with 1 point. The rest are 0.
You can improve your starting Magic to 4 (if you add 1 point to each) if you select the Trait Studious Tinkerer. It has some disadvantages as well, though.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]Can Absorb Spirit be used in place of Fortitude: Healing? If it works as well, I'd much prefer putting points in Protective: Tribal because then I could have Mana Shield and Animal Grace too.[/quote]

Yes, it does. But you need dead bodies around to take the life spirit from (not piles of old skeletons, but freshly dead bodies, including freshly dead skeletons, etc). So it is a good idea to place a few points into Fortitude as well, just to get Healing as an emergency backup. 10 points is enough.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]What about Righteous Fury? Could that be used as a healing spell instead? I seem to remember it not doing much when I tried it, but neither did Fortitude: Healing.[/quote]

Righteous Fury CAN be good. But only when you have LOT of points in it. Healing is excellent if the Fortitude branch has a lot of points in it. But at low levels you only heal 5-8 health points. Which CAN be handy in emergencies.

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]If I don't pick a perk when I level up, can I save it for when there are better perks available?[/quote]

I've never done that. You CAN, I should think - but why? You may as well get a Perk to improve your char, even if it isn't what you really, really want!

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]I just realized there is a Feralkin perk that doubles your hitpoints!!! Wouldn't it be worth being Feralkin just for that?[/quote]

The only answer to that is 'try it and see!'

[QUOTE=BallOfFire]So perks that raise attributes but aren't labelled "Gain ___" can bring them above 10? Or not?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure. Ask Ravager! He knows more about the game than I do.

[QUOTE=Ravager]
Well, I know Fljotsdale is a big fan of Diplomacy, particularly the Speech aspect as it provides an easy get-out clause for many of the major battles. I think it depends on your style of playing the game really. I expect Fljotsdale will argue the case for Diplomacy when she sees this thread. [/quote]

How well you know me, dear! :laugh:

[QUOTE=Ravager] Well, I can't think of any quests that are missed out on for having a lower Charisma, it's possible that you won't get the high Charisma responses in dialoguge though. The main benefit of Charisma seems to be the greater Mana Capacity it provides.[/QUOTE]

I agree. And very useful it is if you plan to use a lot of Magic. A high Mana capacity means you can survive without potions if you play a fight: WHACK (Heal) WHACK (Heal) WHACK (Heal), even when you are beset by several enemies. It's better if you are fighting one-to-one, of course.

Thank you too Fljotsdale! I feel like I already know you after having read all the Lionheart topics while waiting for Ravager to respond =P.

So I really just have one question that is preventing me from starting at this point: can perks that raise attributes other than "Gain ___" bring them above 10? Once I figure that out I plan to actually choose all the perks I'm going to get before I start, so I don't make any mistakes. This is starting to feel like homework.

Yay! We're down to one question.
(Ask more if you want to)

Here's the answer: Yes.

Surely, you haven't read through the topic Fljotsdale and I have been working on for so long now? That's a big read.

[QUOTE=Fljotsdale] And very useful it is if you plan to use a lot of Magic. A high Mana capacity means you can survive without potions if you play a fight: WHACK (Heal) WHACK (Heal) WHACK (Heal), even when you are beset by several enemies. It's better if you are fighting one-to-one, of course.[/QUOTE]

*nods* You can keep a battle going for quite a while using the Attack/Heal tactic. It does depend a little on the weapons being used by you and the enemy though (attack speeds etc).

Whoa, you responded in under 24 hours ^^. And yeah, I have been reading your super long thread. I skimmed parts though so I wouldn't learn too much of the story. Now I'm gonna do some final calculations and try to start this character, but I'm bound to have more questions in a few minutes =P. Thanks again for all the help.

Yeah, I'm sorry for my slow replies. Normally you do ask 10+ questions in one go though.

Lol no problem, I appreciate how much time you've spent on me.

What will happen if I only get two charisma?...

I finished my character. Hopefully. Here'es his stats

S 5 (6)
P 8 (9)
E 8 (9)
C 2
I 8 (9)
A 8 (9)
L 2 (3)

Feralkin

Wolf Hide

Ascetic
Gifted

Fortitude
Ranged
Evasion

Elemental Spirit

I'm happy to help people out every now and again...

Well, you'll have a greatly reduced Mana Capacity. I don't think there are any other side effects (beyond skills that get a bonus from a high Charisma and the odd dialogue option).


I take it you solved the problems you removed from the post?
Probably a good thing, as I've never tried out the Mana Shield spell.

The other questions I had aren't an issue anymore, since I ended up switching to feralkin since I THINK it's necessary for getting the double hitpoint perk. I've started playing, and already cleared out the bonus dungeon. This is so fun! Thank you so very much for making this possible ^^.

That's good.
*nods* I wish this forum hadn't been so quiet when I first discovered it, I could probably have benefitted at the time.
Anyway, it's nice to liven up the Lionheart forum a bit...

Soooo, any more questions for me to answer?

I have a new question, since I am sure you missed them terribly =P. I read somewhere that skills take multiple skill points to increase when they are at high levels. But if I have items that increase those skills, does that mean it will cost more skill points to raise sooner than it should? Do I need to unequip my items before leveling for maximum effect?

I have not played the game myself, however, I have played a lot of similar games. Such items like 'Boots of Flight' (an example) that increase speed by five, or a 'Bow of Hunting' (another example by me) that increases Range bonus' by a certain amount should not require you to use more than one. Rather, they should increase the total by the number provided.

I would wait until Ravager or Fljotsdale answers this one, however. Both reside in the English timezone, and it is 2 o'clock AM there. I'll mention this in passing if I see either of them online, though.