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Whats all this about Bards?

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:21 am
by TRODTROD
Ever since i was a kid playing BG1, for some reason i never really liked Bards, they always seemed a dodgy half-way house between two classes, kind of multi-classing in... nothing.

Anyway, recently ive read about a lot of people soloing with them and a lot of people leading parties with them. Basically i was wondering if someone could tell me what the big deal is, to be honest i have NO IDEA anymore what they are like, all i know is they can use certain magic.

Can someone kind of give me the pros and cons of using them over other characters.

N.B - Sorry Fable for hijacking a thread!

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:48 am
by Thrifalas
To put it short I regard them as a kind of fighter/mage. They do not excel in any class, not close to what a multiclass would, but they have the advantage of pickpocketing, bard song and great HLA as UAI and different traps.

They can be your strongest warrior, but only for a short period of time. After some buffing you'll have a warrior with all kinds of protections ranging from Stone Skin and Mirror Images to Fireshields and imp. Invisibility. Add the wielding of Carsomyr and bonuses of offensive spin and you'll have something no warrior can match without dispel.

I didn't think much of bards myself untill I tried to solo one myself. They really can do wonders, though a fighter/mage or kensai/mage naturally are stronger. But there's no stronger class than that, so well.

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:56 am
by fable
I don't think much of bards as implemented in BG2. They are basically a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, which is why some people with vast prior experience in the game, prefer them for soloing. But taking out a solo bard without that knowledge of what to expect around every corner would be pretty suicidal, and that leads me to think it isn't the bard that really makes the difference, but the walkthrough in the player's mind.

Certainly in later rule sets (like that used in IWD2) bards are welcome members in a party. They gain more and more powerful songs, as well as a wider range of spells. But if you put them in a party in BG2, they'll function like a multi-class thief/mage/fighter, with a few extra benefits that IMO are minor.

Mind, that's from a power perspective. Since bards are inherently weak, playing through BG2 with one in a party actually adds a strategic challenge. As druids are also weak, you can really enliven a game by trying to work around their deficiencies. So there is an upside, as well.

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:04 am
by TRODTROD
but if i start a game on IWD II they might be good? lol

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:27 am
by VonDondu
Part of the charm of playing a Bard, or any other character for that matter, lies in the fact that you can play a particular kind of character. What he is is just as important as what he can do in combat. Unless you have no interest in roleplaying, playing a Bard gives you the chance to be a poet, a singer, a storyteller, and/or a charismatic adventurer with lots of flair. Other classes have an identity of their own that is just as strong--Rangers, Paladins, Monks, Barbarians, etc. I don't think the Kensai class is easily identifiable on its own merits just because most "Sword Saints" are dual-classed, which means that most people don't really care what a Kensai is supposed to be like. Multi-classing also has a way of obscuring the meaning of the various classes. That's one reason why a Bard should not be confused with a multi-class character; a Bard is always a Bard.

Bards do have their weaknesses, and a lot of experimentation is required to figure out how to take advantage of their strengths. But Bards have a lot of natural advantages. For example, they advance more rapidly than most classes (they use the Thief experience table) and much faster than multi-class characters. If a Bard and a Mage have the same number of experience points, a Bard can do more damage with a Fireball spell because he's higher in level. A Bard might get a little more protection from Stoneskin, and spells whose duration depends on level will last a little longer. Additionally, Blades have special abilities (Offensive Spin and Defensive Spin) that come in handy at early levels. Melf's Minute Meteors combined with Offensive Spin enables an unarmed 8th Level Blade to do more damage per round than most other characters of the same level.

When battles get tough, as they often do, a Bard's relatively poor THAC0 (they use the Thief table) and relatively poor Armor Class (their armor is restricted if they want to use spells) make a Bard a poor choice as a frontline warrior; but that's what Fighters are for. Bards can fall back on special magic items such as wands and scrolls, or they can use Bard Song to help their party.

When I played with a party of Bards, I had a lot of trouble with the Crypt King in the Graveyard District and the Demon Knights in the Underdark, since those tend to be melee-intensive battles. But other battles were easy, such as the demon in the Svirfneblin village. A Resist Fear spell, a few Lower Resistance spells, and a bunch of Magic Missiles made the battle short and easy. If you do a search, you can find some messages I wrote a while back describing how a party of Bards could defeat a demi-lich. I'm not the best player in the world, but Bards have many talents.


[QUOTE=fable]taking out a solo bard without that knowledge of what to expect around every corner would be pretty suicidal, and that leads me to think it isn't the bard that really makes the difference, but the walkthrough in the player's mind...

Since bards are inherently weak, playing through BG2 with one in a party actually adds a strategic challenge...[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree with you on those points. But soloing ANY character without knowing what's around every corner has a tendency to be suicidal, as you put it. :) And as for adding a strategic challenge when you play a Bard, I think that's partially the point in doing it. It gives your brain more work to do, and that makes the game more fun.

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:40 pm
by JackOfClubs
I do wish that playing a bard allowed the PC extra witty dialogue options. One of the nice things about having Haer'Dalis in the party is that he has some well-written lines, especially if Aerie is also in the party. It seems a shame that the PC can't speak as eloquently.

I suppose it would be too much to ask that every dialogue would have a separate set of responses, but at least the instructions you give your theater troupe should be in iambic pentameter... Or rhyme... Or both...

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:08 pm
by fable
[QUOTE=JackOfClubs]I suppose it would be too much to ask that every dialogue would have a separate set of responses, but at least the instructions you give your theater troupe should be in iambic pentameter... Or rhyme... Or both...[/QUOTE]

That would be amusing. :D I wish the bard's "stronghold" was also a more in-depth kind of thing, but bards aren't exactly given much power or roleplaying possibilities in BG2.

but if i start a game on IWD II they might be good? lol

Actually, yes. :) Changes in the AD&D 3rd edition rules make bards considerably more powerful, and they get to use spells much as a sorceror does.

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:34 am
by Raven_Song
but if i start a game on IWD II they might be good? lol

Actually, yes. Changes in the AD&D 3rd edition rules make bards considerably more powerful, and they get to use spells much as a sorceror does.
I agree up to a point. Icewind Dale II actually makes bards a distinct class with the inclusion of a range of songs but sadly once a bard hits level 11 s/he does not learn any new songs.

While bards may use spells in a similar manner to sorcerers they have a much smaller pool of spells to select from (when compared to BG2) and can cast fewer spell per day.

All in all while some improvements were made in comparison to other classes, some improvements were still required.