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Alright, I as a Chaotic Good character had used those frickin' Shadow Theives so I could rescue Imoen (whiny sister that she is). Then when I come back to deal with those theives in the only real way a good character ought to - kill all of them evil sons of guns - as soon as I start wackin' on Aran some creep (can't remember his name) just pops out of nowhere and kills me with one hit. Then he proceeds to kill everyone else in my party with one hit. I tried about 6 times using various spells (including invisibility) and each time the same result. Now, this is in Chapter 6, after I've killed dragons and slaughtered the hords of Drow in the Underdark. Kinda stupid that a mere thief can whack me. I KNOW this is some kind of game balance mechanism (maybe some weird theif demi-god) so that no one kills Aran and totally screws themselves in the main quest - but c'mon, after I've killed Bodhi who needs him? Those thieves are just BEGGING for a righteous butt-kickin'!

It ain't right I tell you. Consider my complaint registered. Other than that this is a totally wonderful game.

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.

You are wrong, the shadow thives keep some resemble of order among the thives that work in Amn, If they would be destroyed (By the way Aran is only the shadow master of Athakla, there are more important menbers within the shadow thives, that is the shadow counsil, the real leader of the shadow thives is also a member of the counsil of six, so what you are doing is....nothing,they only need a new shadow master for that city, and then go after you.)that would make more evil that good.
And that guy is there so you dont screw up the story .... He cannot be killed.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

First things first. Thieves EVIL. Me, GOOD. Chaotic Good. I don't give a hoot for order. I want to kill bad guys. And, if that means killing Aran draws more bad guys after me for revenge, GREAT! I'll kill them too! Makes my job easier!
As a chaotic good guy, I would not understand how a town with thieves would be good. A town WITHOUT thieves would be better.

I said I understood the game balance thingee, but I also said that I tried to kill him AFTER YOU DON'T NEED HIM ANYMORE. I've played the game through and after Bodhi's toast, he just doesn't have a role to play in the greater good. In my mind, the protection is no longer needed at this point.

What would be more interesting, is they allow you to kill him (AFTER a certain point in the game), and possibly punish your character in some (minor) way in the next game. Heck, they don't mind making your good characters consort with thieves in THIS game (leaves sour taste in mouth).

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.

I am going to say this:

"A evil that we know an contain is always better that to fully destroy it and being replace by one that we dont know."

Just because they are thives does not give you the right to destroy then,as long they dont try to kill you or plunge the world in a the age of darkness we sould leave then alone.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Er, do you mean I should let the scoundrels get away with taking hard-working folks' money - just out of the fear of "something unknown" taking their place? Good smashes evil in any form it chooses to take! No, I do not take a "passive" good role in the universe. Rather, an active role. Unlike Superman or Batman, I don't wait for the bad guys to make the first strike. I will go after them if I know where they are. I will make the town of Athkatla safe for the law-abiding citizen and the innocent. Thieves are not thieves because they go around calling themselves thieves, they're out there taking things that don't belong to them. That has to stop! "The greatest evil is when good men see it and do nothing to prevent it!" I'm not one of those fools that believe in "balance". I'm not a "live and let live" kind of guy. I'm for victims rights! I will lighten the burden of injustice heaped upon the back of the good and innocent!

Get it?

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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.

I said this before, "Good" and "Evil" are someting that the designers of D&D (yes, the old one) come up to help the DM deterimine the way a NPC (and PC, since he could force a PC to change algiment if he is not behaving in acordance with chosen aligment) would behave in the game, no way in Hell a PC sould atomaticly know a PC our NPC aligment.
If you go around killing people because their aligment is "evil" you sould start my the merchents, since that is a convient aligment that suits their ways.
You simply determined that because they are thives they sould die, right. well both Imoen and Nalia are thives as well, so you sould kill both just in case they steal something, of couse not, Aran inself can be "evil" because he (like merchents) just cares about himself.
You have no way to tell if the thives in there are going to steal something from "hard working people", actualy its more likely they will steal rich people and merchents that are usualy "evil" in aligment, "hard working people" quite rarely have things of value, and a thief usualy goes after a "fat" target, not spend his time and skill (besides the risk itself) on a non-profit target.
Like in real live you can not label people as "good" or "evil", that is quite impossible, nobody is truly "good" of "evil" its something in those general lines.
By the way, even if you take down the shadow thives, you can be sure that something like they will appear in Amn, there is no City in faerûn that does not have a thift guild, not even Waterdeep is safe from thives.
Besides why sould your character care, he is not lawful, so why sould HE help the law, and dont say that is because he whats to help people, by doing that is just helping the Law, something that (by being chaotic) he does not care, not helping the people(I have expained that above).

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

I can see that if you are having difficulty understanding the difference between good and evil this is going to be an interesting conversation.
Don't tell me that a chaotic good person doesn't want to help other people. The mark of a good person is to care for others. It's the methodology that may vary. Chaotic good folks are definitely willing to bend the rules for "the greater good" as they see it. Sometimes that means turning in folks to the authorities, or sometimes it means taking the law into your own hands. Whichever best fits the circumstances and mood.
I wouldn't wack poor old Nalia or Imoen for stealing - as long as they were stealing something that would further our greater good. If they stole something out of greed or malice, I'd wack their hands off first to give them a warning. But, they wouldn't do that...
What the heck are you talking about merchants and rich folks being mostly evil? I don't buy it. If anything, probably most of them are neutral - which ain't a whole lot better in my book - but doesn't earn them a wackin' unless they do something so selfish it puts others in danger (like Saemon).
Stop throwing out the argument that we will never get rid of all the thieves. A good person doesn't quit just because the job is really hard, and it would be possible with a lot of killin' to weed out most of them. If you're going to say don't do it because you'll never get rid of them all, you may as well just give up and let them walk all over you, which ain't happening on my watch.
Of course, to wack simple thieves I'd have to take a break from saving the world as it is known...
You're "fat" target argument doesn't hold water. Talk to the common folks in the slums and a lot of them complain about getting mugged. Heck, in the real world common people get robbed every day.

After saying all that, I guess I can break it down to this. I help out the folks that can't help out themselves. I do it however I deem necessary. I wack the people who break the golden rule. People who leave other folks alone do not earn the "evil" alignment. Through past behavior patterns and leanings they haved earned that label. And in the world of DnD, it is a label one can look up with a spell...

Or, you could just cast detect evil, and only kill the evil thieves.

*ducks*

You can do whatever you want in your game, but I played PnP for some time (I cant wait for summer so I start it again) and I can tell you if you would do this you would get quite a speach from the DM about it and would get a aligment change from CG to LG, you are basicly not playing the character aligment a CG character is a strong Individualist with a kind heart, what you are saying is something that cames out from a LG character. The game does not take those kind of actions in consideration, there is only a place were he do that so you dont change aligment.
But its your game and I cannot tell you the way to play it.
now for your original question
That guy shows up because if you side with the shadow thives and try to kill aran before going in the boat trip, that would put the game in a impossible situation. the same guy do the same thing if you side with Bodhi and you try to kill her before going in the boat trip.
Also some for you, If you talk with Aran he will help you against bodhi by sending two thives that takes care of traps in the second level.
P.S. I know about the DM speach things quite well since I played a very friendly Green Elf and they are not very friendly towards non green elves, they are not evil but quite unfriendly.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Originally posted by Chenjzen:
First things first. Thieves EVIL

Robin Hood was a Thieve...does this mean he was evil.



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[This message has been edited by Chrissy(Edit 3-27-2001)]

I don't think lawful good, maybe neutral good. Lawful Good would go through the proper channels, you have no "proof" that those thieves are stealing, they could be specialists in trap removal, scouting, or even bounty hounting, which I suspect is not illegal in Amn?

Or was Robin Hood and archer (ranger kit)? Just rockin' the boat.

Actually the shadow thives are assasins there is a short Bio in the Manual pag.29....
But its like going after any evil organization, even if we bring one down another will rise in place, and the shadow thives are not that dangerous to Faerûrn, they are not going to take Faerûrn, now the Twisted rune is trying that and since they are also undead......

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Two Points:

1/ Has it not occurred to you that the structure that the theives guild represents is activily redistributing the wealth from the upper to the lower classes? How many nobles are in the guild? If you felt that the overall social structure in Amn was corrupt and deserved to be overthrown (and it certainly is corrupt and not 'good') the theives guild would be one of the best allies to have on your side 'when the revolution comes'. As a Chaotic alignment this is a fair call.

2/ But conversely (Spoiler) it is considered normal for the shadow theives to run assassinations - one of your 'leiutenants' (as the new guild head) is in charge of a whole division of the Mae'Var guild devoted to just this. This is definately against the tenants of 'good'.

Some food for thought perhaps - Curdis

I know a lot about the shadow Thives the organization, mumbers and most important members since I have the "lands of intrige" box, the organization is descrived there and the time line is the same, so I know what I am talking about...
But I also Know about other Organizations that would that in the Void left by the shadow thives, It would be far worst....

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

IMHO to classified all thieves as evil is not right..

(Example) A rich land owner takes your land and kicks you off of it..you hire a thieve to take it back..

1.The thief talks to the rich land owner and tries to reason with him..

2.The thief kills the rich land owner ..


Now if the rich land owner refuses to give the land back is it wrong for the thieve to kill him to get the land back for you.

Is the thief evil for helping out the you?

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[This message has been edited by Chrissy(Edit 3-27-2001)]

Rename this thread "Good and Evil 101 - for absolute beginners". Prerequisite study material before venturing into goody. If you can't hack this, don't even try...

Heh heh.

Originally posted by Curdis:
Two Points:

1/ Has it not occurred to you that the structure that the theives guild represents is activily redistributing the wealth from the upper to the lower classes? How many nobles are in the guild?

Some food for thought perhaps - Curdis

Wow. Shadow Thieves are definitely LE. You say there are no nobles in the Shadow Thieves. Do you think those that run the guild are poor?!? Do you think they're in it for the common folk?!? They're in it for themselves. They don't give the money they steal to the beggars. They keep it. Period. Their rich get richer. They have their own nobles. They arent "actively redistributing the wealth from the upper to the lower classes". They are redistributing any wealth they find to their own coffers.

Okay, let's get it straight: Aran helps you to recover your "childhood friend" Imoen from the wizards that abducted her and you now want to KILL him? What the heck did he do to you? You said you "used" the Shadow Thieves: this attitude itself is self-serving and far more evil an act than anything they might have done to you (but it is certainly chaotic, that is for sure.)

Chenjzen, you are hiding behind your Chaotic alignment as a pretense for commiting a premeditated murder (or mass murder). Your actions would be the evil here. As a matter of simple common sense, if you actually wanted to help the poor citizens, you would be taking your vendetta against the GOVERNMENT of the city, not the thieves. The council of six and subordinates are those most responsible for the condition of the lower class.

Thieves as a general rule will only steal from those who HAVE something of value. The poor have little to fear from them, and in all probability sympathize with them more often than not.

You are also making the mistake of stereotyping an entire profession, and an entire organization in this case, as a single aligned unit. Are the Shadow thieves as a guild "evil"? Generally, most would say; depends on who is asking. Is EVERY member of the Shadow Thieves evil? I think not. Some are, for sure, but not all. You defend thieves in your party as stealing "for the good". This would really mean "for YOUR good." You do NOT judge with an impartial view. All thieves are NOT evil. You say so yourself (Imoen and Nalia.)

Evil is subjective, also....a greedy person is classified as evil in this game...Korgan for example...and, as was pointed out, most merchants. These people are interested in personal gain, and do not usually care if you (the consumer in the case of a merchant) get "hurt" (ripped off, overpaid, whatever) in the process.

The "redistribution of wealth" point is a very good one. This is exactly what Robin Hood did, and nobody can argue the point that he WAS a thief. Your attitude would lead you to kill him, as well, and wouldn't THAT have made the sherriff happy??

If I were a personage in the game, I would not condone stealing for personal gain or assassinations, either. However, you likely have done this and far worse through your adventures in BG2 and yet you do not consider yourself evil.

Killing a single thief or group caught in the act of a crime is justification for doing what you intend. Killing them all just because they belong to a profession or organization your PC finds personally distasteful is fighting evil WITH evil. You'd be as bad (or worse) than them.

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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

[This message has been edited by geh4th (edited 01-30-2001).]

Originally posted by geh4th:
Chenjzen, you are hiding behind your Chaotic alignment as a pretense for commiting a premeditated murder (or mass murder). Your actions would be the evil here. As a matter of simple common sense, if you actually wanted to help the poor citizens, you would be taking your vendetta against the GOVERNMENT of the city, not the thieves. The council of six and subordinates are those most responsible for the condition of the lower class.


The "redistribution of wealth" point is a very good one. This is exactly what Robin Hood did, and nobody can argue the point that he WAS a thief. Your attitude would lead you to kill him, as well, and wouldn't THAT have made the sherriff happy??

Good point. Being chaotic does not justify murder. Being chaotic evil does. If you are CN, you would probably distrustful and even hostile in your attitude toward institutions such as the shadow thieves or the Order. However, being hostile doesn't mean going on a killing spree of anyone associated with said organization.

While Robin Hood stole, he was not a thief by class, IMHO. I still contend he was clearly an archer. Any fighter or mage can rob a caravan. This does not mean they can pick locks or hide in shadows. And he certainly was chaotic good, IM(not so)HO.