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I have seen a few threads on what exactly defines an RPG. I gave a bad example previously, but I was also kinda in a rush. Now I'm creating a thread on the general description of RPG's and CRPG's.

It can prove useful in arguments about what type of game 'this game' is, or in arguments, such as the "Diablo- RPG or Shoddy Marketing" thread

Wikipedia-

RPG-
A role-playing game (RPG) is a type of game in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives. Gameplay progresses according to a predetermined system of rules and guidelines, within which players may improvise freely. Player choices shape the direction and outcome of role-playing games.


CRPG-
RPG with Console or Computer as the acronym.


By that definition, a game, for instance, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, is NOT an RPG. You cannot affect the world for the most part, except to progress the story line. You can't improvise your character freely, each and every game you play will have the same outcome no matter what, you gain the same items except for money (which is pretty much used on potions only), you gain the same weapons and shields, fight the same monsters each game.

Now, Does that mean Diablo 1 is an RPG. I would consider that a yes, as you can improvise your character, and while you may not be able to affect much around the world, it still lets you have the freedom of character and Items. Say you didn't want a sword, you can go axe, or say you wanted a little more mana then strength, sure, go ahead.

Now, does an RPG have to be fantasy based? No. Does it have to have weapons, and leveling up systems to make your character stronger? No. As long as you can have the freedom to do what you want with that character, then it is an RPG. You don't have freedom of character with Zelda, as with the above example. You are a hero and will fight on the same path with the same weapons and so forth.

This thread is supposed to be informative to people who don't know much about considering what is an RPG, as well as a debate if you feel my definitions are off.

I also have problem with the definition of RPG.
There are S(trategy)RPG and A(ction)RPG, too. It's all too complicating to define...

Catagorising always leads to exceptions, grey areas, and personal opinion. CRPG has become a very loose term, to the extent that it can contain any or all of the features you listed in your definition.

Personally, I would expect an RPG to contain characterisation, strong narrative and character development. That is just off the top of my head. The degree to which they feature in gameplay, if it all, would determine if its RPG/ARPG/SRPG etc.

Most people recognise character development as a key feature of RPGs, to the point where games such as Warcraft III or Three Kingdoms are seen as RPGish as you can develop certain characters.

meaning

[QUOTE=Siberys]I have seen a few threads on what exactly defines an RPG. I gave a bad example previously, but I was also kinda in a rush. Now I'm creating a thread on the general description of RPG's and CRPG's.

It can prove useful in arguments about what type of game 'this game' is, or in arguments, such as the "Diablo- RPG or Shoddy Marketing" thread

Wikipedia-

RPG-
A role-playing game (RPG) is a type of game in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives. Gameplay progresses according to a predetermined system of rules and guidelines, within which players may improvise freely. Player choices shape the direction and outcome of role-playing games.


CRPG-
RPG with Console or Computer as the acronym.


By that definition, a game, for instance, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, is NOT an RPG. You cannot affect the world for the most part, except to progress the story line. You can't improvise your character freely, each and every game you play will have the same outcome no matter what, you gain the same items except for money (which is pretty much used on potions only), you gain the same weapons and shields, fight the same monsters each game.

Now, Does that mean Diablo 1 is an RPG. I would consider that a yes, as you can improvise your character, and while you may not be able to affect much around the world, it still lets you have the freedom of character and Items. Say you didn't want a sword, you can go axe, or say you wanted a little more mana then strength, sure, go ahead.

Now, does an RPG have to be fantasy based? No. Does it have to have weapons, and leveling up systems to make your character stronger? No. As long as you can have the freedom to do what you want with that character, then it is an RPG. You don't have freedom of character with Zelda, as with the above example. You are a hero and will fight on the same path with the same weapons and so forth.

This thread is supposed to be informative to people who don't know much about considering what is an RPG, as well as a debate if you feel my definitions are off.[/QUOTE]

The definition is Role Playing Game, ive looked it up.

An Acronym is not a Definition, it is as it says, an acronym.

What defines a game as an RPG is my question.

[QUOTE=Super_Republic]The definition is Role Playing Game, ive looked it up.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that is actually the stupidest post I'e eer read, and that's saying something.

I suggest you read the first post in future.

Hey, first post on this thread.

After reading this whole thread, it left me quite stumped as to what can I say here. In fact, I had to read the whole thread more than once to think about what to write here to be honest.

[Quote=Sibersys]CRPG- RPG with Console or Computer as the acronym.[/Quote]

Anyway, to be frank, this is the first time I've heard of this term before. Never in my life have any gaming website ever mentioned this term. Most likely they always classify each game like Action RPG, Turn-based RPG and other type of characterisation.

[Quote=Sibersys]By that definition, a game, for instance, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, is NOT an RPG. You cannot affect the world for the most part, except to progress the story line. You can't improvise your character freely, each and every game you play will have the same outcome no matter what, you gain the same items except for money (which is pretty much used on potions only), you gain the same weapons and shields, fight the same monsters each game.[/Quote]

I have to agree that the Legend of Zelda series is not an RPG, let alone even an action RPG when I went to check out gaming websites about the Legend of Zelda series (always thought they were, to be honest). They're mostly classified as Fantasy Action Adventure. It could be that they have some RPG elements in it leading people to think that the Legend of Zelda series is an RPG, though I could be wrong.

About the fact that you can affect the world a certain game is based in, isn't that more to an open-ended RPG? Those type of games focuses on the playable character itself and the choices they made that affects what goes on around him. This reminds me of Fable's theme, "Every action, a consequence," where whatever you do, there are always results and repercussions, in my opinion.

There are RPGs that are plot driven like the Final Fantasy series and quite a number of console type RPGs out in the market. Those are not exactly open-ended games since they are plot-driven but they do contain features most common in any RPGs like character customization and item collection.

[Quote=Denethorn]Personally, I would expect an RPG to contain characterisation, strong narrative and character development. [/Quote]

Yup, I agree here. That's always the main ingredient for any RPGs.

I had something to add. Vampire the Masquerade is the game that I'm having trouble defining as an RPG. Sure I didn't play it but why is it considered an RPG? I've seen demonstrations of the game and it apparently plays like a FPS, in my opinion. Looks like an FPS with RPG elements if you ask me, though if anyone can explain to me why is this game an RPG, please enlighten me on this.

[QUOTE=DesR85]
I had something to add. Vampire the Masquerade is the game that I'm having trouble defining as an RPG.[/QUOTE]

Well this all leads back to the thread topic. Vampire The Masquerade contains a decent storyline (which is dependant on player choice - another tell tale sign of an RPG), considerable characterisation and definately tons of character development. I'd say its more an RPG with FPS elements.

Definately worth a look into - its very atmospheric atleast. One of the few cyberpunk/dystopia RPGs out there.

[QUOTE=Denethorn]Well this all leads back to the thread topic. Vampire The Masquerade contains a decent storyline (which is dependant on player choice - another tell tale sign of an RPG), considerable characterisation and definitely tons of character development. I'd say its more an RPG with FPS elements.[/QUOTE]

All right, that clears things up for me here. Was starting to wonder what kind of FPS is that at first when I saw the main character firing an AK-47 in a manner that is equivalent to someone who had no experience in handling firearms. As you mentioned, its an RPG with FPS elements and that makes more sense.

[QUOTE=Denethorn]Definitely worth a look into - its very atmospheric atleast. One of the few cyberpunk/dystopia RPGs out there.[/QUOTE]

I don't know. Even though this game uses the Source engine, I don't really like the atmosphere in Vampires the Masquerade. Looks kind of eerie and Goth-like. Furthermore, I also don't like playing Vampires/Dracula type games.

[QUOTE=DesR85]Anyway, to be frank, this is the first time I've heard of this term before. Never in my life have any gaming website ever mentioned this term. Most likely they always classify each game like Action RPG, Turn-based RPG and other type of characterisation.[/QUOTE]It is mainly to differentiate CRPGs from real RPGs or PnP RPG if you want.

No CRPG comes even close to having the wealth of possibilities in terms of character development & storyline you find in PnP RPGs. In fact, when compared with PnP RPG almost any CRPG should be classified as an Action RPG.

As for VtM:B, since combat is certainly in the beginning not the main focus I would not classify it as an action RPG in the strict sencse and certainly not as an FPS. You can get through many quests without actually fighting.

I've always seen the VtM Bloodlines game as an RPG with elements of Action RPG at times (particularly near the end). It does have a gothy feel to the game but thats because that is the kind of atmosphere they were trying to create. I'd say its more RPG than FPS/Action RPG though.

[QUOTE=Lestat]It is mainly to differentiate CRPGs from real RPGs or PnP RPG if you want.[/QUOTE]

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing things up, Lestat. Now I know why those terms existed.

[QUOTE=Lestat]No CRPG comes even close to having the wealth of possibilities in terms of character development & storyline you find in PnP RPGs. In fact, when compared with PnP RPG almost any CRPG should be classified as an Action RPG.[/QUOTE]

How so?
I don't play PnP (Pen and Paper) RPGs so please explain.

Well by it's nature a CRPG will be more tilted towards action than a PnP RPG, since there is only so much dialogue you can script and only so much branches you can fit on a storyline tree.

In a PnP RPG there is much more room for interaction with NPC's and the world since they are played by a human being (the Game Master, Storyteller or Dungeon Master). And as a player you are not limited to some dialogue choices or how you go about things. Moreover you have the dynamics of a player group that try to work together (this is probably also present in MMORPG's, but I'm not familiar with them) and can come up with some devious ideas that bypass the original scenario and take the story in a new direction.

Basically it's a question of limits, and CRPGs are much more limited and tend towards what is easiest to computerise: action.

[QUOTE=Lestat]
In a PnP RPG there is much more room for interaction with NPC's and the world since they are played by a human being (the Game Master, Storyteller or Dungeon Master).[/QUOTE]

Hey, I've heard of these terms somewhere. Come to think of it, I had a friend who used to play Dungeons and Dragons before and he did mention a Dungeon Master/Game Master/Storyteller somewhere. Was querying him about what reflex saves and dice rolls that were used in the KOTOR series at that time and he told me about D&D and how its works.

There are several elements that games can include that can define it as an RPG or has RPG elements.

Things as non-linear game, storyline or quests.
Character progression (lvling up).
Alignment changes and consequences of those changes (Good vs Evil).
Choices and consequences (In normal actions or quests).
Character development (stats, skills, attributes).

That is what I would like to see in a game that calls itself an RPG. Not everyone has them all and some are more important than others. It doesn't mean either that if someone lacks one of those then its not an RPG.
But that is how I would like to define RPG.

In other words, taking the full title, Role Playing Game, I would like to be able to roleplay my character.
I want to be able to create a role in the game and have the game respond to that role.
Meaning if I choose to be an evil thief, I want to be able to solve things as a thief and also be able to do things with an evil intention.
I don't have to kill the guards to get the ring the young maid has sent me to retrieve. I can sneak around them and steal it.
But I can also choose to not return the ring to the maid, and instead selling it to a crooked person and still solve the quest. But by doing this, I have also made myself an "enemy" of the young maid and a "friend" of the crooked person.

For the RPGs I have played, Fallout comes closest to my feel of an RPG.
And one of the important things that Fallout does, is to have your attributes and skills influence your game.
If I choose to be an intelligent person but not very combative, I can solve things with dialog instead of brute force. It might even also mean that I can get a different result, that might be better than whatever result a person who has focused more on strength and combat skills would be able to get.

[QUOTE=Foss]
In other words, taking the full title, Role Playing Game, I would like to be able to roleplay my character.
I want to be able to create a role in the game and have the game respond to that role.
Meaning if I choose to be an evil thief, I want to be able to solve things as a thief and also be able to do things with an evil intention.
I don't have to kill the guards to get the ring the young maid has sent me to retrieve. I can sneak around them and steal it.
But I can also choose to not return the ring to the maid, and instead selling it to a crooked person and still solve the quest. But by doing this, I have also made myself an "enemy" of the young maid and a "friend" of the crooked person.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree with you here. In fact, that will be a truly open-ended experience that should be implemented into open-ended games (be it RPGs or other types of games).

Anyway, I have another question. About Deus Ex, is that game really an RPG? It looks and plays very much like an FPS to me. Furthermore, I don't see any RPG-like features in the game (I might be wrong so please correct me here).

Yes and No with Deus ex
Yes you can play a charactor, but you are restricted more than most RPGs.
most RPGs dont let you play the milkman but have more variety.

The skills offered in Deus Ex are highly utilarian though this is partially a reflection on its comparatively more mundane setting than its contemporaries,

though methods of problem solving are definately highly variable, each with its own quirks and consequences.

The story however follows a highly linear path, though does respond to some choices you make, but until the finale offers very little defining choice in charactor, and even than it only lets you choose an ideology to drive home at the end with.

It lives up to the FPS/RPG descriptor, but FPS Most definately before the RPG
The story may be heavily set in stone, but the greatest CRPG of all time (i refuse to say arguably, because I have yet see one valid argument against it)
Planescape Torment has a story similarly linear in nature
however PS:T allows one to explore your own charactor against a set series of problems presented
Deus ex does rarely offers the option of exploring JCs intentions or charactor in a manner that is not scripted heavily by the developer.

I bought Deux Ex several years after it came out, mostly because of people's praise towards it. But I didn't play it that long though.
But I did see it as a FPS with RPG elements.

I might want to install that again to get the full experience of it. I doubt I gave it a fair chance.

So, this game is like a hybrid? Like both FPS and RPG? Okay, that makes much more sense. Thought it was a purely FPS title when I saw the video review of that game on gaming sites.:laugh:

Anyway, I went to Gamespot to check out the [url="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/deusexinvisiblewar/index.html?q=Deus%20Ex"]game[/url] and they listed Deus Ex as Sci-Fi Action Adventure. Don't know why. I guess its hard to classify Deus Ex when they reviewed the game.

[QUOTE=Foss]There are several elements that games can include that can define it as an RPG or has RPG elements.

Things as non-linear game, storyline or quests.
Character progression (lvling up).
Alignment changes and consequences of those changes (Good vs Evil).
Choices and consequences (In normal actions or quests).
Character development (stats, skills, attributes).

(...)

In other words, taking the full title, Role Playing Game, I would like to be able to roleplay my character.

(...)

For the RPGs I have played, Fallout comes closest to my feel of an RPG.
And one of the important things that Fallout does, is to have your attributes and skills influence your game.
If I choose to be an intelligent person but not very combative, I can solve things with dialog instead of brute force. It might even also mean that I can get a different result, that might be better than whatever result a person who has focused more on strength and combat skills would be able to get.[/QUOTE]

First off, I'm sticking to the terminology defined above. Though, just to clear things up, I'm adding to the 'character development' as modifying while progressing. The initial action is 'character creation' or 'selection'. I'm also using CPD as an acronym for 'character progression and development'

I don't find most CRPGs to be RPGs at all. While I agree with most of the above post, I'd say the running point is: role playing. CPD really does nothing at all unless you're able to really be the character you created.

For one of the early DOOM (FPS game) clones (could it be Quake?) there were different mods. One of those let you choose different types of characters like druid and warrior. Then as you killed things your character gained levels which made your character stronger, get more HP or mana etc depending on the character you chose when you started out.
The only thing that differed from other FPS games was that the manner in which you killed your enemies depended somewhat on the character choice you made at first. Thus, CPD where present, allthough the development was preset for each character.
In the end, that was as much role playing as any FPS give you. In other games I could for example chose to use only hand guns or only assault rifles which would have as great an impact on the game as that choice of character gave you.
Thus, CPD does not make an RPG.

It is not even necessary to have CPD present. On their own they're just a classic reward system that makes you feel good. For example, remove character progression and development from Fallout. It would still be an RPG. The same goes for Dungeons and Dragons and other PnP RPGs. I'm not saying those games would do well without it, but that's in the area of game design.

Linearity, if used to describe wether a game has a set storyline to follow that you can't deviate from doesn't make or break the RPG classification either. This is probably the common way the word is used. However, using the word in a slightly different context takes us closer to what constitutes an RPG. Take a quest driven linear storyline with non linear quests. That is, where you choose how to solve each quest. The choices available to you can depend on your character but this actually limits the role playing part. The best thing is if you are given free reign to do as you see fit. It won't necessarily mean you achieve good results or even that you're successful though...

In the end, the key is 'role playing'. You decide what your character is like, then you play out that role - you strive to really be that character. Not even character creation is necessary though it is tightly coupled with how you will role play your character. Also, games based on a D&D like system actually limits your choices. For example, you're not allowed to create a thief called Fumblefingers with 8 dexterity. How can his dexterity be too low? It can only be too low for him ever hoping to be a succesful thief, but I still might want to role play him as a clumsy thief.

The only computer games I can think of that really classifies as RPGs are Arcanum and Fallout.

Example of Non-RPGs in my opinion:
#Oblivion - while the game is non-linear, the quests are linear. The only thing your character creation and development contributes is basically how to kill your enemies and wether to magically open locks or lock pick them. I'd call this a Fantasy adventure.
#Diablo - I'd definitely call this a TPS, third person shooter, or third person slash n hack if you prefer. Fantasy action would also suitably describe it.

Neverwinter Nights (as an engine/devlopment tool) allows for either Fantasy adventure or RPGs to be made.