Demi-gods, avatars, and nonsense.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:27 am

Let me state first that if you purchase a game, I have no problem with you doing whatever you like with it. That includes using trainers, cheats, etc. Use the game any way you enjoy it (goes without saying that I prefer to finish games without such adulterations.)

My rant is: with the trend towards games utilizing more and more powerful characters, and the way people tend to want to make them even more powerful than the game even intended, what is left? Everyone seems to want to be a demi-god, wielding 2 +5 weapons, casting level 9 spells, wearing dragon plate, all while shooting lightning out of their arse. The rarity of powerful items and magic is what made them special, and there should always be an item or power that you simply can't have. Instead we are in a kind of RPG arms race. The problem is that you must suspend disbelief to enter into the RPG world and that becomes more and more difficult as everyone becomes a god. Ideally I would like to see a game that got back to the core Tolkein-like atmosphere, with game 'tweaks' being impossible. Thoughts? Flames?

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:37 am

I agree. How many more super-powerful mages with golem armies must we overthrow?

How 'bout a strategic game next? Levl 9 Fighters are lords in AD&D. Can't we have one where you have to do keep-wuest style things on a grand scale. Even a lvl 20 fighter could get killed when a 20K army of orcs and goblins steamrollers his lands...

------------------
The Black Pig of Disaster lets rip with a retch-inducing yellow fog!

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:38 am

Hummmm, most interesting.

I always finish a game in 'game design' mode first. Then I'll use any 'console cheats' I deem fit to replay the game. This is just to enhance my enjoyability (as such). This is particularily true with all the BGxx games as their replayability is somewhat limited. BG II is a slight exception with all the side-quest, strongholds, etc. that abound.

I do tend to agree that powergaming for the sake of powergaming is a bit adolescent. This is what turned me off to on-line gaming (Diablo I and all the PK'ers).

But, anyone that wants to write trainers, hacks, etc. and those that want to use them are more than free to do so. I happen to feel that it's your money and your style so go for it.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:45 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Waverly:
all while shooting lightning out of their arse.

How did you find out about my super secret one time use special move.

Yes .I'm a power gamer, but I play against a computer, not a real person.

------------------
'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:51 am

I don't think his rant is against powergaming. I think he's talking about worlds filled with Nth level parties, wands of butt-kicking, swords of holy a$$ whupping, armies of demi-draco-liches, flying Verbeeg balloon ships and Elves that cr*p rogues stones.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:53 am

ROFLMAO ..That would be the worlds to go to.

------------------
'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:58 am

Bingo, Grunt. That is pretty much the gist of it. As for powergamers, as long as you don't bring it online, it's your nickel. I did say my ideal game would prevent such mods, but only to emphasise what an accomplishment it would be acquire a unique item or power - not because I have a personal problem with powergames.

The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu...

[This message has been edited by Waverly (edited 01-10-2001).]

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:02 am

@waverly: Right on. I'm waiting for a real Middle Earth game that focuses more on quasi-realistic fantasy, in depth character prgression, mind excerices, puzzles, etc., and less on god-like mages infesting the land several hundred per square mile. The deal for me is immersion and escapism. Tolkien was the master, and for good reason. The willful suspension of disbelief is one thing, but come on.

LOTR is coming out in theatres next Christmas, and I've heard rumors about a wickedly in-depth RPG to be released as well. Yeah commercialism!

------------------
I will drive my enemies before me, take their souls and listen to the lamentation of their women echo in the Cavern of Khazad-dum.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:08 am

Yup. When was the last time you had a *big* fight? You don't need fancy-maggicks and pitfiends to have fun.

How's about a bunch of low level archers and footsoldiers, led by your's truly, getting pounded on by, oh, say 50 orcs. *That* would be fun.

And I ain't talking about warcraft or cr*p like that. It has to be AD&D stylie. Whats wrong with companies of 0th or 1st level fighters batting away at each other - bit of resource management and secondary hero development, voila!

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:55 am

I am going to rain on your parade.
There is a big fight for Rigths on the Tokkien story lines sierra vr tokkien so the game is not very likely to see the shelf.
about the original question.
yes, but Irenicus is a 30 lv mage and you fall short about 10lv behind him, and this is Amn the trade nation, so +2 weapons are fairy common here,there a no 2000 orcs vr the party because of the Frame rate so there are more powerful enemys to give you a somthing to chew, I play a F/M and she is quite capable of going one on one without +3 weapons or a fancy +3 armor.

FoulDwimmerlaik · Post by **FoulDwimmerlaik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:00 am

AYEEIEE! A fight over the rights? You have made my day grim and fell indeed. This game must be placed on the shelves....

Ubik · Post by **Ubik** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:02 am

Sad thing that you said about the Tolkien game, Drak. In fact, though, there should be a more balanced game. And I think our friend has - some - right in his complains. But, still, we are talking about fantasy here, so everything is allowed. And it is up to each one of us, of how much fan we have in playing the one or the other game.

Yup, gents, give us the original! Give us the LOTR world!!! After all, this is how EVERYTHING in rpg and crpg started!!!!

BTW Drak, why are you not taking part in the adventure? We are in an encounter, in the planar sphear topic. Ride on!!!

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:03 am

Soooo you're saying you *disagree* that the game is designed to create high-level high-jinx characters in a world populated by too-powerful adversaries?

Maybe we're not all gaming-gods like you Drakron

. Personally I find it difficult to go through the game without my +3 plate and Crom Faeyr.

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:19 am

I'm not really sure what the complaint is. Yes, BGII has too many high level characters, NPCs, and baddies (way too many from a PnP perspective). But the low level stuff was exhausted in BGI. I've replayed the first game nearly 4 times (players "retire" at level 7-8, just like in PnP at level 10-12), and I was more than ready to see a sequel with higher level spells, weapons, etc. available. Yes, my party is carrying around too many >+3 weapons, but I carried plenty of basic weapons around for 300+ hours in the first, more realistic game.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:30 am

My 'complaint' (actually more something I wanted people to think about) was the trend toward super-players in general. Don't get me wrong and think I don't games such as BGII or Torment- I just think we are a short distance from wielding the longsword +6 of ludicrous titan strength. Would you disagree that the trend is venturing further and further from intent of PnP? Let's take a look at a quote from TSR's DMG 2nd edition:

"One of the great temptations for players is to create super characters. While this is not true of every player all the time, the desire for power above everything else afflicts most players at one time or another. Many players see their characters as nothing more than a collection of numbers that affects game systems. They don't think of their characters as personalities to be developed. Players like this want to "win" the game. These players are missing out on a lot of fun...If you decide a character is too powerful, the player has two choices. First, he can agree to weaken the character insome fashion subject to your approval). This may be as simple as excluding a few magical items ("No, you can't bring that holy avenger sword +5 that shoots 30-dice fireballs into my campaign!"). Second, the player can agree not to use some special ability ("I don't care if your previous DM gave your character the Evil Eye, you can't jinx my dice
rolls!")."

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:31 am

Amen Waverly.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:43 am

Would it be fair to only let one person have a super sword? Don't get me wrong I know there is not suppose to be + 6 or + 10 swords laying around all over the place. And if I was playing some on-line I wouldn't want them to have them either. I believe this game was loosely based on the rules of AD&D.

------------------
'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:55 am

2 things.
1)I play a elf F/M she can go one on one but 3 on 1 she can not her scores are the result of 2 hours of reroll on BG I TOSC get all the books in the game(not all only 2 on wisdom) and inported the caracter, she very good but still there are somethings that she cant do.(like the twisted rune alone)
2)the +5 weapons are a rare as a tana´ri prist of Tyr. only gods weapons are of that quality,most of the weapons in the game are coverd in the "dungen master guide" chapter on equipement, even the Cyrsor is just a normal Holy Avenger, so dont think that +6 or +10 weapons are going to show up,TSR still have a word on what type of weapons are valid on the AD&D universe and in the game.

------------------
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:41 pm

Couple things. First, let's define "powergaming." By powergaming, I mean doing anything within the rules of the game to become powerful. To some extent, everyone does some of this because it is needed to win. Pumping characters up with editors (or IMO even cap removers or importing items repeatedly)isn't powergaming, it's munchkinism.

The power level in BG2 is high, but I think we'll find it's difficult to get around that with a computer game unless you change the rules. In PnP it can take an hour to fight a few orcs. On a computer the fight will be over one way or the other in about a minute. In BG scripts limit the dialog options available. In some computer games it is more free form, but the characters are still looking for specific key words which can make things frustrating rather than improving it. True AI for computer NPC's is a long way off still so we'll only see really complex dialog in PnP and MMORP for a while.

As far as Tolkien power levels being limited, I think MERP has Gandalf as a level 30/60 fighter/mage or so, the witch king as a level 60 sorcerer, and Sauron around level 150+. Even the hobbits are all in the 12-18 range (fighters and thieves). Sting is a (+20/5 to convert) +4 short sword of spider slaying that continually detects evil creatures, Glamdring makes Sting look like a steak knife and Anduril makes Glamdring look like a decorative sword (although Anduril IS arguably the most powerful weapon east of the undying lands).

Being powerful gets old, but it's fun to BECOME powerful...as long as it is a challenge to do so. Which would be more fun to play: Bilbo or Bartleman Butterburr?!?

One of the most fun characters I ever played was one most would consider munchkin (heck, I would if someone else told me about it): a vampire elder sired by the Queen of the Damned, consort to the goddess Kali, and a powerful mage and a empathic healer in his own right. Going out and killing orcs with him wouldn't have been any fun, but it's amazing the intrigues that can happen between demi-gods.

I'm not sure it is the power itself that helps make things interesting though: I think it is the number of creative options that are available. A straight +5 weapon may be more effective than a +1 weapon with special abilities, but the +1 weapon may be more intersting. However, the +5 weapon is the one more likely one to have special abilities.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:50 pm

Well I'm a powergamer then because I haven't hacked my ability scores ( I played BG1 6 times with the same char

) with no editor and I still have the cap (downloaded but never put it in my game).

------------------
'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.